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God as consciousness.

 
  

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Fungus of Consciousness
10:34 / 05.02.08
I have formed this idea and just wanted to put it out there and see what people thought of it.

At the moment the creation of the universe is known as the Big Bang. But what was the Big Bang? Could it be the moment that consciousness first happened?

If time, space and matter had nothing to perceive them then do they really exist?

You may say "Ahhh, but there was nothing around to SEE the big bang, but clearly it happened. So if nothing SAW the big bang that would mean that it didn't happen and we wouldn't be here". Good point. But perception of HOW something got here forms our perception of that thing. So therefore we HAVE seen the big bang because we are here to see the results....

What if you were a consciousness floating with no perception of time, space or matter. What if you then become aware of time. And then you think of matter and BANG! it all exists in certain places within time and space. Thought is nothing if there is no reality in which to frame it.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
10:42 / 05.02.08
So in other words, what ever you thought of you perceived as reality. And you created stars, and planets and oceans and land and trees and animals and people. And people were like your little fingers each touching and feeling the reality you have created.

This is why I believe we are not separate from god, but we are a little piece of god experiencing the reality we all create via our perception.

So are we separate from god? Or rather are we a part of god? Hardly a heretical thought is it given that "God created us in his image"? So if we accept that, do science and religion need to be mutually exclusive. For example, if we read Genesis, and interpret that god is in fact consciousness, we have a pretty neat scientific explanation of how the universe was created. Written by poeple that couldn't understand it in terms of science, only in terms the universe was created via perception. How long is seven days for consciousness, for god? It could be aeons. Each of the seven days could reperesent an epoch in the formation of the heavens, earth and life.

What are we all fighting about? God is us, we are god, and the universe is so much bigger than this Earth. We just have to be ready to perceive it!
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:56 / 05.02.08
So if we accept that do science and religion need to be mutally exclusive. For example, if we read Genesis, and interpret that god is in fact consciousness, we have a pretty neat scientific explanation of how the universe was created.

Well not really. All you can interpret is that God would have conciousness, which Genesis makes pretty clear in the first place.

In order for it to be a scientific explanation you would need to have more than a general feeling, or belief, that this was the case. You would need some form of evidence discovered in such a way as to be repeatable by others who would achieve the same results.

Now I'm not saying it's impossible, a lot of people seem to believe in floating disembodied conciousnesses. But if you want it accepted in a scientific way then your evidence needs to be more than general speculation. I mean I could, for instance, suggest that I created the universe using only sticky tape and hairnets but it's pretty easy for everyone else to prove that's not the case.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
11:10 / 05.02.08
Fair enough, but that's not really the point. The point is that Genesis would have been written by poeple who had no understanding of science, so they described it as best they could. Furthermore, it isn't a "disembodied consciousness" theory, in fact that's kind of what I'm arguing against. The argument is the consciousness has evolved into us. The universe tends toward complexity, as does consciousness. At this stage we are the most complex expression of consciousness and therefore it's most complex embodiment. Similarly it isn't really possible to disprove Genesis (or the first few chapters anyway) in a scientific way. But i IS easy to prove that you didn't do it with stickytape.
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:41 / 05.02.08
The argument is the consciousness has evolved into us. The universe tends toward complexity, as does consciousness.

If the universe tends towards complexity then why was there a conciousness so complex as to be able to bud off to form the entire human race from start to finish there before it had even gotten rolling?

Similarly it isn't really possible to disprove Genesis (or the first few chapters anyway) in a scientific way.

I dunno, I always felt that the fossil record and the existance of dinosaurs and non-Homo sapiens primate cultures were kind of a clinching argument that Genesis might not be a literal interpretation of events.

Furthermore, it isn't a "disembodied consciousness" theory, in fact that's kind of what I'm arguing against.

Okay, so what form did this conciousness take?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
12:01 / 05.02.08
Again I think you misinterperet me (seems to be a lot of it going on). Please don't mix up the fact that some people interperet Genesis literally that means that the only way TO interperet Genesis is literally. Again that is the complete opposite of my argument. Genesis was an explanation of events written by people who couldn't understand science, so they explined it as best they could. As I said, each "day" of Genesis could be aeons, so therefore fossil records, dinosaurs, evolution and all the rest are completely able to be incorporated into Genesis without contradiction if we accept that these "days" were not 24 hours. In fact It betrays a misundersanding of how people wrote at the time of Genesis writing. A day meant a time. Time as a concept was still very primitive and measure chiefly in..... days. Therefore the terms Time and Day were interchangable. Does that make any sense to you?

To be honset, I don't think you read my posts before writing your replies. Or is it an issue of comprehension? I stated that the consciousness would have been simple and evolved. See. Evolution. Science. What did it evolve into? As I explained in my last reply. It evolved into US. The most complex being, and therefore the most complex expression of consciousness. It may evolve further, but at this time the consciousness consists partly of us and partly of other conscious beings around us.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:43 / 05.02.08
Please don't mix up the fact that some people interperet Genesis literally that means that the only way TO interperet Genesis is literally.

so you mean you're saying that IF you're allowed to interpret Genesis as figuratively as you like, THEN it becomes impossible to disprove?

can't you say that about, like, anything?

Furthermore, it isn't a "disembodied consciousness" theory, in fact that's kind of what I'm arguing against.

I think when you said What if you were a consciousness floating with no perception of time, space or matter. that it might have given someone the impression you were talking about disembodied consciousnesses.

Sorry, I'd like to respond more directly to your first posts but I'm having a bit of a hard time finding the central argument to hang on to. you say

what was the Big Bang? Could it be the moment that consciousness first happened?

do you have some reason to believe this? like, "here is my hypothesis, here's some evidence of that hypothesis"? it seems more like you say "hey, what if" and then give a bunch of other stuff that might be too, maybe. what's the argument?

I think there's some good stuff in there, I'm just having trouble following.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:11 / 05.02.08
I stated that the consciousness would have been simple and evolved. See. Evolution. Science.

Saying it's science doesn't make it scientific Peter75. Expand on your theory. What form do you think this conciousness would take? Obviously it would have to be something that could survive temperatures that were believed to be so high that the random motions of particles were at relativistic speeds. Ludicrously huge changes in pressure, and frankly silly levels of radiation. What form did this simple evolving conciousness take that it could survive that and then:

So in other words, what ever you thought of you perceived as reality. And you created stars, and planets and oceans and land and trees and animals and people. And people were like your little fingers each touching and feeling the reality you have created.

Apparently, despite being a simple conciousness (inhabiting a body designed to survive a cosmic fireball) it was then able to imagine everything in the entire universe.

I'm not saying it isn't true. I'm just saying show me a little more proof than "Hey what if God was real!".

To be honset, I don't think you read my posts before writing your replies.

I'm not sure you read your posts.

The most complex being, and therefore the most complex expression of consciousness. It may evolve further, but at this time the consciousness consists partly of us and partly of other conscious beings around us.

Okay, so we're more complicated than a conciousness that can dream the universe into being? It'd be groovy if it were true. But, again, where's your proof?
 
 
Quantum
16:08 / 05.02.08
The most complex being, and therefore the most complex expression of consciousness.

You reckon? I'm not sure you can safely assume that, dude.

"What is probably the largest living organism on earth has been discovered in the Malheur National Forest in eastern Oregon. A fungus living three feet underground is estimated to cover 2,200 acres. After testing samples from various locations, scientists say it is all one organism.

Officially known as Armillaria ostoyae, or the honey mushroom, the fungus is 3.5 miles across and takes up 1,665 football fields. The small mushrooms visible above ground are only the tip of the iceberg.

Experts estimate that the giant mushroom is at least 2,400 years old, but could be 7,200 years old."

Are you sure you're more complex than a three-mile-across five-thousand-year-old being?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
19:49 / 05.02.08
Great, the fungus is large, but how cosncious is it? Are whales more conscious than humans because they're bigger? I don't recall saying that.....

To quote my original post - "You may say "Ahhh, but there was nothing around to SEE the big bang, but clearly it happened. So if nothing SAW the big bang that would mean that it didn't happen and we wouldn't be here". Good point. But perception of HOW something got here forms our perception of that thing. So therefore we HAVE seen the big bang because we are here to see the results...." Like I said, go back and READ the original posts. Clearly if nobody has seen an event that doesn't mean it didn't happen. That nobody alive saw Rome burning doesn't mean the reality of the event changes because it happened in the past. Our understanding of events of the past, seen or not, forms our perception of what we see as reality right now.

You are arguing points I adressed in the original post. Please go back and read it.

I would have hoped that this wasn't actually a post to be argued, rather one to be discussed. Of course there is no right or wrong answer. How can anyone prove the existence of god? I'm not sure anyone has done that yet. If they have let me know, I'd like to have a chat! All I am saying is that there is consciousness and that is what can be proven. Would the universe exist if there was no cosnciousness to perceive it? Therefore I am proposing that which we have called god is a manifestation of consciousness.

I'm finding Barbalith not so much a discussion boeard as an argument board.
 
 
electric monk
20:27 / 05.02.08
I'm finding Barbalith not so much a discussion boeard as an argument board.

Must "discussion" take the form of agreement? Where's the profit in that?

(Thanks for linking to that fungus article, Q. Wicked cool.)
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
20:28 / 05.02.08
Not if the points have already been addressed.
 
 
Evil Scientist
20:56 / 05.02.08
I would have hoped that this wasn't actually a post to be argued, rather one to be discussed.

Who's arguing? I'm pointing out flaws in, what I percieve to be, a fairly generalised and badly thought out opening post. I have asked for clarification of several points (haven't gotten all of them answered yet). There's room for all types of belief systems on the 'Lith, but people are expected to hold their corner of things up.

What kind of discussion were you expecting to develop? I'm an atheist with a very reductive view of reality so you were unlikely to get me nodding in agreement at your suggestion that conciousness predates the Big Bang. Fight your corner dude.

For instance, what form do you feel this conciousness took that allowed it to survive the Big Bang unscathed? Why do you believe this to be the case? What sort of spiritual methodology have you used to achieve this hypothesis?
 
 
electric monk
20:57 / 05.02.08
Well, see that's kind of the thing. You keep insisting that people aren't reading your posts, or that you've already addressed a point. Meanwhile, the way I'm reading this thread, other posters are expanding on points you made or offering counterpoints. You seem to not want to address these points and only refer back to your original post, which begins:

I have formed this idea and just wanted to put it out there and see what people thought of it.

So people are telling you what they think. And you don't seem, to me, to be that receptive to any of it. Wristwatch Nuke, King of Iron Pants, and Quantum have all given you thoughtful responses to your opening posts. None of their responses seem to be argument for argument's sake, and I'm not seeing the misinterpretation of your posts that you see.

So please, extend a little politeness toward those who accepted your invitation to discuss your hypothesis. Use their counterpoints as a springboard to advance the discussion, instead of dismissing them out of hand. Re-address and expand on points you made, if you feel it's necessary. No one's looking for nastiness. We all just want to talk.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:03 / 05.02.08
Well, a couple of thoughts:

1) On the creation myth - yes, it's possible that the creation myth - or more precisely that creation myths in Genesis are an attempt by non-scientists to explain the big bang, having been told by God that that was how the Universe came into being. Sure thing. There's no real way to prove it, though. As it happens, all sorts of creation myths - including the Babylonian creation myths from which Genesis draws - have elements in them which might be compared to the scientific consensus on the creation of the universe, in highly metaphorical senses. Darkness, primal forces, the creation of the Sun and of light, the formation of the moon, the formation of the stars, the formation of the Earth. I'd say that these are the sort of things one would probably expect in the creation myths of a people standing on the Earth looking up at the Sun (and light) and the Moon and stars (and darkness) - not a million years away, the pre-Socratics were talking about ordered shapes of animals emerging from a jumbled mass of primordial limbs - is that evolution? Later, Democritus would talk about tiny elements out of which everything in the world was made up - are those atoms? One could certainly claim a motivating intellect common to all humanity, existing from the Big Bang onwards (somehow), which meant that everyone knew all this stuff all the time, and merely had to wait for their scientific understanding to catch up to the point that they could relate it to the physical universe. I'm not sure that it could ever be proven or disproven, or whether it would have any effect on the day-to-day progress of the world. It would be a religion, essentially - a sort of anagnostic pantheism.

2) Having said which, the universe doesn't incline towards complexity, or at least need not. Until fairly recently, the assumption was that it inclines towards chaos. Second law of thermodynamics, yes? Ultimately the universe breaks down into the simplest possible structures, with no energy transfer possible across it because everything is equal. That's been thrown into doubt lately, but it's worth holding as a model. So, I don't think it's necessarily the case that we can assume that the universe tends towards complexity, or that we are the most complex things in it because we are, somehow, the embodiment of the divine consciousness that pervades the universe.

3) And while we're here, let's not get too down on the Hebrews. The Book of Genesis as we have it was probably finished in the fifth century BC - that's actually a pretty sophisticated period. You've got Aeschylus kicking it over in Greece, Thales, a vast Persian empire with scientists and magicians... you've got a fairly sophisticated view of time and the passage of time by then. If you want to say a billion years, you could just about do it, although you'd have to work at it a bit. Of course, the idea of the time it takes for the planets to form might still just not be a way in which one thinks of the universe, but nonetheless. The final editors of the Old Testament are by no means hicks.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
21:38 / 05.02.08
Don't recall ever calling anyone hicks, or implying such. Ahhh, more of your selective editorialism at work. Excellent.

I'm by no means saying that Genesis is the only account, it was just used as an illustration. As for the pre-Socratics talking about ordered shapes of animals emerging from a jumbled mass of primordial limbs, well this may be considered an attempt at explaining that animals evolved from simpler forms. Again, knowledge has expanded, and with it our ability to explain more complex concepts in increasingly exacting detail, rather than as an illustration of concept as the ancients attempted to do.

As for the universe tending toward complexity, well the tehory of evolution would seem to support this concept. The universe started out as matter existing in isolation and then coalesced to form clouds, then stars, then planets, then complex compounds, then life, then more complex life.....

Lets get back to brass tacks. It's a fairly simple proposition. Why does the universe exist? I would say because we perceive it. Perhaps you have an alternative to that, and that's cool, (if so I'd like to know what it is). But my main proposition is - if the universe only exists via an ability to be perceived then that perception, or consciousness must have created the universe as a place for that perception or consciousness to exist. Don't get too hung up on the illustration or its relationship to Genesis. My argument is that if there was not a perception, a consciousness, a state of being, however you want to describe it, then would the universe actually exist?

I look forward to your reply.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
21:44 / 05.02.08
Just another small point. Isn't atheism just another for of god worship? Does it not take as much faith to believe in nothing as to believe in something. It's fine, I'm cool with faith, but you then go on to state that my original post is "badly thought out". In what respect and based on what evidence? There is possibly more evidence of the assertion that the "universe is possible because of the existence of perception". Than there is no god. Without actually defining what god is.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:47 / 05.02.08
Isn't atheism just another for of god worship? Does it not take as much faith to believe in nothing as to believe in something.

Speaking as a retired atheist: No, it doesn't. I find that tack rather objectionable, and based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the atheist perspective. To believe in God/Gods/The Divine Whatever requires a special effort or some quite extraordinary experience; to give creedence to the idea that there is no God requires one merely to look out of the window.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
21:51 / 05.02.08
How. What evidence is provided on the non-existence of god by looking out the window?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:52 / 05.02.08
What I'm saying is that the existance of something intangible requires more proof than the non-existance of something intangible.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:57 / 05.02.08
Oh, I don't know. I believe that pi exists, for some value of existence, but I can't identify it, except in the way that one might identify God in a leaf...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:58 / 05.02.08
There was a young man who said "God
Must find it exceedingly odd

To think that the tree
Should continue to be
When there's no one about in the quad."

"Dear Sir: Your astonishment's odd;
I am always about in the quad.

And that's why the tree
Will continue to be
Since observed by, Yours faithfully, God."


Really. When I leave this room, the table will no longer be perceived, unless by God. Will it still exist? If it does still exist, will it still be a table? If the universe existed but was not observed, would it not exist in the sense that there was nobody using the concept "universe", or would the matter not exist?

If you mean, as you seem to, that there has to be a consciousness in evidence for their to be any matter in the universe - that if there had not been a consciousness of some sort at the start of the process then the process would never have occurred - well, fine. That's a position of faith, though. Science would tell you that the universe would have come into physical being (or not) whether or not somebody was watching it, Planck aside. Humanity may possibly be the only form of intelligent life in the universe, and will probably at some point cease to exist, but the matter that makes up the universe will continue to exist. Likewise, some _animals_ may be evolving into more complex forms, but that does not mean that the _universe_ is doing likewise - that's the ut inferis fallacy. If the ultimate entropic state of matter in the universe is a black hole, then you won't get much _less_ complex.

But, you know, these are articles of faith. You can see the universe as tending towards complexity, and humanity as the lodging place of the divine consciousness' evolutionary process, and that belief will not affect one way or another the matter of the universe we both inhabit.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:06 / 05.02.08
Don't recall ever calling anyone hicks, or implying such. Ahhh, more of your selective editorialism at work. Excellent.

You claimed that the writers of Genesis would not know the difference between "a day" and "a length of time".

In fact It betrays a misundersanding of how people wrote at the time of Genesis writing. A day meant a time. Time as a concept was still very primitive and measure chiefly in..... days. Therefore the terms Time and Day were interchangable. Does that make any sense to you?

By the time the book was being compiled and edited, this would certainly not be true - the cultures of the area had nuanced agricultural calendars. Even if you take an extreme view and argue that the phrasing was unchanged since the first draft, and further argue that the first draft was waaaay back, say in the 14th century BC, I think it's still not true. You could have a better argument by claiming that it was a metaphor rather than the only concept of time they had.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
22:07 / 05.02.08
From my original post

"You may say "Ahhh, but there was nothing around to SEE the big bang, but clearly it happened. So if nothing SAW the big bang that would mean that it didn't happen and we wouldn't be here". Good point. But perception of HOW something got here forms our perception of that thing. So therefore we HAVE seen the big bang because we are here to see the results...."

Therefore if percetion ends, and is never re-kindled, as you say it may in the future (and it may), then the universe would cease to exist, at least until perception is re-kindled. Consciousness is not an article of faith, it exists, as I'm sure you'll testify.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:09 / 05.02.08
Doesn't follow, old chap. You have yet to demonstrate that matter requires consciousness to exist. Therefore we're still stuck with a shipment of faith, articles of.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:17 / 05.02.08
So, everything that has ever happened exists because somebody can now perceive the effects of it - to wit, the Earth they are standing and, the table they are sitting at. Seeing that table vouchsafes the existence of the man who made it, his father, his mother, and so on back to the first stirrings in the primordial soup?

Fair enough. You've developed, perhaps independently, a simplified version of Berkeley's perceptivism, I think. However, a simple materialism - where matter is seen as existent regardless of whether it is watched, or named, now, in the past or at any time in the future - functions as a parallel viewpoint. Consciousness is not an article of faith, although what it is is quite complex. However, the idea that consciousness is a prerequisite to anything, conscious or otherwise, having the quality of existence? That's faith. And a belief that humans are parts of a complete and divine consciousness, which creates and maintains the universe by imagining and perceiving it, who are coming through scientific progress to understand what as parts of God they have always known? Also faith - as I said above, a kind of anagnostic pantheism.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:20 / 05.02.08
Awareness seems to exist as does its ability to create and learn a variety of symbolic sets based upon sensory perception and its own ability to employ imagination in the creation of abstract measurements. But that still does not imply consciousness or self as in the notion of a conscious self, even self reflection and self knowledge suggest a dividing of awareness, this still does not mean that awareness is conscious.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:37 / 05.02.08
An awareness conditioned with symbolic sets becomes divided as it separates itself from the sets it contains (or appears to) and continues to condition itself by employing these objects of awareness as if they are realities.

Self reflection then implies the illusion of self consciousness through the seperation created by dividing the awareness between what is percieved and me doing the percieving.

There is just awareness. every beginning of a measurement creates the internal dichotomy and a self narrative that continues to be called consciousness, self or a relationship to god etc, the definition of objects or various qualities of states through naming a qualitative measurement based upon cultural conditioning.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
22:42 / 05.02.08
Arioch - That's actually a good point and perhaps I could better have said that the "Big Bang" was the moment of percetion, rather than conciousness. Consciousness probably came later as perception became more advanced. Bare in mind that I've never written or verbailsed the concept before, so that's kind of why I'm putting it up here, to test it out, for others to poke and prod.

Cheers!
 
 
Rev. Orr
22:57 / 05.02.08
I'm still not entirely clear as to how we arrived at a consensus that reality is conditional upon a conscious observer, whether simultaneous, developing in a linear future or even a potential future. My limited grasp of rudimentary quantum physics means I can appreciate a relationship between the observer and the observed but surely there is a logical leap between this and a conditional relationship between the two. Why does the Universe give a damn whether I'm real or not? or is it only you that has such a privileged gaze as the ultimate point of complexity that reality has been rising towards since creation?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
23:03 / 05.02.08
It seems that the universe does care as Quantum Physics has shown that the act of observing something changes the behaviour of the subject.

Nor is it "Only me" but every one of us. I guess I won't disagree that is kiond of the thrust of the statement though.....
 
 
Rev. Orr
23:20 / 05.02.08
Yes, observation can affect reality. I accept that. What I don't see is how one gets from a relationship or an ability to interact, affect or influence, to the existence of one being predicated on the observation of the other. They are not the same concept. The second is not a product of the first.

Again, what is the reasoning process by which one gets from one to the other?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
23:37 / 05.02.08
I'm not sure that the concepts are separate if we accept that the universe is altered by our perception of it. Similarly our perception may be altered by the act of observing the universe. So it would then seem that the existence of the univese is dependent on the existence of an observer, and the existence of an observer is dependent on the existence of a universe. This interelationship may not be linear but it seems to be necessary for one to exist for the other to exist.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:11 / 06.02.08
So it would then seem that the existence of the univese is dependent on the existence of an observer, and the existence of an observer is dependent on the existence of a universe.

Nope. The second, yes, probably, since we generally assume observers need oxygen, somewhere to stand and so on. The first, not so much.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:17 / 06.02.08
Oh, Orr:

Again, what is the reasoning process by which one gets from one to the other?

Faith, I think.
 
  

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