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Camera Eye, CG-Eye

 
  

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Automatic
09:27 / 20.03.08
Very nice article, I'll have to check out Crank sometime soon.

If you are looking for input though, I wouldn't describe camera positions as first and third
person "shooter". "FPS" and "TPS" implies a style of gameplay rather than a camera position, using the word "shooter" to describe all games with a first and third person perspective could be a little misleading.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:32 / 20.03.08
I wouldn't describe camera positions as first and third
person "shooter". "FPS" and "TPS" implies a style of gameplay rather than a camera position, using the word "shooter" to describe all games with a first and third person perspective could be a little misleading.


Hmm, that's interesting, thanks.

First Person and Third Person surely does imply the camera position ~ I entirely take your point about adding "shooter" but I just didn't think "FP" and "TP" were accepted terms on their own. Maybe I'd assumed that FPS and TPS had become terms that mainly described the point of view, rather than the genre: I mean, Lara Croft and GTA aren't "shooters" primarily are they, but wouldn't you describe the primary camera mode as TPS?

I'd appreciate your advice on how to tighten that up.
 
 
grant
16:46 / 20.03.08
I think "perspective" is probably more accurate than "camera position," too, since the camera moves to different positions in either mode (especially what you call TPS).

I'm used to seeing POV in film be used exclusively for a first-person shot.

Are you very interested in cutting word count? I could condense, but it'd be violent.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:14 / 20.03.08
I think "perspective" is probably more accurate than "camera position," too, since the camera moves to different positions in either mode (especially what you call TPS).

True, but I have said that in "TPS" (to stick with that term) the camera is characterised by fluid mobility. Its position is consistently distinct from the avatar, which I'd say is what makes it "third person".

TPS mode is a "camera position" in that it's always separate from and outside the character, isn't it? Does "perspective" imply something less fixed?


I'm used to seeing POV in film be used exclusively for a first-person shot.


I thought that was how I was using it, but if not, that was a mistake on my part and I should look at it.



Are you very interested in cutting word count? I could condense, but it'd be violent.


To be honest I think it's pretty compressed as is... it is not that I'm really looking at cutting words, more that being at the maximum leaves me very little room to play with, and doesn't even allow me (strictly speaking) to add the references and acknowledgements I want.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:16 / 20.03.08
the most notable aspect of the third-person POV in games

Yeah, you're right. I guess that is technically wrong, in film terms. It seems OK in a broader sense, in that you could say a "third person point of view", but yes, POV in cinema usually means first person.
 
 
grant
18:49 / 20.03.08
Oh yes, you're not writing about cinema, so I didn't think it was *wrong* to say "third-person POV" - it just stood out as being a different way to use the term.

---

"Perspective" to me means the angle of view (low perspective, first-person perspective) while "position" is a physical point at which a camera would be located... so to get a low perspective, I'd need a position near the floor.

Does that make sense? I'm aware that I learned a strange kind of American film-ese (in part, taught by some West Coast folks on the East Coast - the crew has different names for some equipment, too), but that's how I read those words.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:21 / 20.03.08
That does make sense, but I'm not sure how "third person position" is really inappropriate, as the camera in a TPS is consistently in a position separate to and distinct from the avatar, which (to my mind) makes it third person.

I appreciate this grant, don't mean to argue the toss. I'm just not sure that either is necessarily more accurate in this context... also maybe I feel I should stick to one word (ie. "position") rather than alternate between that and another (ie. "perspective").

But perhaps the difference is less subtle, and more important, than I'm imagining.
 
 
grant
20:40 / 20.03.08
I'd get someone else to verify - and I *definitely* wouldn't change a word's meaning halfway in.

By TPS changing position, I mean sometimes the character is walking toward the viewer, sometimes in profile, sometimes seen from above. It'd take three camera setups to do that - three positions, all outside the person.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:14 / 20.03.08
But a steadicam or a crane shot could also show someone walking towards the camera, or in profile, or above ~ because the camera is moving, and so is the actor/avatar. It's still the same shot, even if at different points of the same take, you're seeing a long shot from above, or a medium shot from the side.

As a TPS "camera" doesn't cut, it's not the same at all as having three different cameras giving you those different viewpoints, and switching between them.

For instance, to take my famous example, in the opening of Touch of Evil, you've got a crane shot that shows different views of Charlton Heston as it navigates around his car. But I'd still call that the same camera position: it's still the crane. Just as when Lara moves, and the camera shifts to best show her in the environment, it's still the same (what I'm calling) "TPS" camera position. The point is that it's fluid and mobile ~ maybe that's its "position". That's its nature.
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
01:09 / 21.03.08
I also found appending shooter a little jarring, and think perspective would be a better word to use there.

I do read position as being more fixed, and perspective as more fluid - mostly, I think, because while I'm sitting here in my chair, I can look out the window or at the computer screen or into the next room, all of which are changes in perspective without any change in position. I am also pretty sure that most games writing uses the word perspective to talk about where and how the camera is looking, or simply talk about a first or third person camera mode.

I also think a comparison of ScaryPOV (or binocular-cam) with the first-person perspective in videogames is in some sense misleading, because to me, first person implies some agency, which we obviously have none of in cinema. It also implies identification, and usually we identify with the people who are being subjected to scaryPOV more than the one who owns it - ScaryPOV is closer to second person, and third is your non-identified perspective (i.e. almost everything, except heroPOV, which is pretty rare). I am here, 'he' is out there (in the darkness, looking at me), 'they' are everywhere, swooping around like crane shots.

That's probably totally useless and confused.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:23 / 21.03.08
OK, maybe I should change it to Third-Person Perspective. However, if you look up Third-Person Shooter on Wikipedia you get a definition that seems to suggest that the third-person aspect is important, and that the "shooter" bit doesn't necessarily have to apply, generically. (Almost as if the "shooting" part refers to the camera shot, but I know that isn't the case, yet).

Third-person shooter (TPS or 3PS) is a genre of 3D computer and video games in which the player character is seen at a distance from a number of different possible perspective angles, as opposed to the first-person model in which the player views everything in the game world as if through the character’s own eyes. Tomb Raider was an early third-person shooter which popularized the genre.[1]


Leon S. Kennedy in Salazar's Castle in Resident Evil 4.Owing to the general nature of the term, many games are placed outside of the third-person shooter genre because their styles are covered by more specific genre labels. Prior to Resident Evil 4, the Resident Evil games, though they incorporate both third-person gameplay and shooting, are not considered third-person shooters; because of the emphasis on fear and survival, they are called survival horror. In contrast, the GTA series from Grand Theft Auto III on has been labeled by some as third-person shooters, but also incorporates driving and RPG elements. Examples of traditional third-person shooters include MDK, Gears of War and Uncharted: Drake's Fortune.



first person implies some agency, which we obviously have none of in cinema.

Obviously a first-person POV shot in cinema is different from the (superficially) equivalent view in a FPS, but I hope I was trying to say, overall, that game "cameras" are mostly not very much like what we see in cinema, so where are the possible overlaps and similarities?


It also implies identification, and usually we identify with the people who are being subjected to scaryPOV more than the one who owns it - ScaryPOV is closer to second person, and third is your non-identified perspective (i.e. almost everything, except heroPOV, which is pretty rare). I am here, 'he' is out there (in the darkness, looking at me), 'they' are everywhere, swooping around like crane shots.


I see what you're saying, but I don't really see that a first person point of view can be "second person". When we're seeing through the Terminator's eyes, I think the uncanny bit is that we're briefly given that inhuman perspective. Surely we are invited to identify with the character through whose eyes we are seeing, for the duration of that shot? Even if it does at the same time stress their otherness and alienness.

It's definitely an interesting point. However, again I hope I was trying to say that overall, the dominant videogame camera modes are (contrary to the vague general sense that "videogame" films are youthful, funky, fast and furious) not like anything we see for any length of time in the cinema ~ that the closest comparison is novelty shots in mainstream cinema, and that another interesting parallel would be devices we usually associate with experimental or art cinema.

That's my main point, and unfortunately there are subtleties. ambiguities, exceptions and details that I'm not able to explore within this short piece, but I hope that idea does come across.
 
 
grant
19:32 / 21.03.08
As a TPS "camera" doesn't cut, it's not the same at all as having three different cameras giving you those different viewpoints, and switching between them.


Ahhh - see, I was thinking of those interscenes (or the distracting moments when you walk up to a wall or something) in which the camera *does* cut. So yes, in what you're describing, you're absolutely right. I know I've seen TP cuts in the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon game, and I think I've seen them in Halo (but might be thinking of the interscenes, which I don't think you're talking about really).
 
 
grant
19:53 / 21.03.08
Oh, I just had a thought. I don't think the TP cuts *work* in the games I've seen them in - they're as confusing as hell. (And probably not used in newer games as a result.)

But there's definitely a thing about cuts signifying a death scene. Always a cut to look at the body then fade to black.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:10 / 21.03.08
But there's definitely a thing about cuts signifying a death scene. Always a cut to look at the body then fade to black.

I'd suggest that should probably be categorised as another kind of cut scene ~ breaking you out of connection with the avatar and shifting you into a mode where you watch helplessly, giving up your agency.

Seriously there are a lot of good qualifying points here, which are important and not quibbles. If I had 5000 words to play with!
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
08:03 / 22.03.08
yes, sorry. I totally agree with you about what people consider videogame movies not at all being videogamic in composition and shooting terms. I also like your article. I should have mentioned this before.

My comments above came from wondering where second person is, in these POVs - the closest thing I can think of is a vaguely remembered fight where the player has the perspective of the boss you're fighting, looking at the player's character, which I may have invented. It could just as well be third person, however. But if you take that as 2nd person, then the equivalent in film terms is the scaryPOV, which is not the same at all.


(I've just done a bit of a search for 2nd person in videogames, and found this: http://selectparks.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=654 which is really bizarre, but unfortunately won't run for me at the moment. /offtopic)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:00 / 22.03.08
Thanks for the positive and the questions. Are you Red Frog Rising?

I guess to produce a second person perspective, you'd have to establish an identification with one character, then see them from another character's point of view? The only book I can think of off the top of my head that uses second person is Iain Banks' Complicity, which has sections about "you".

Then again... isn't that the default mode in the adventure game? You can't do that; you go West; I don't understand you?

I think you would have to have a sense of a first person (ie. the computer or an NPC) which wasn't your character. Perhaps if the third person camera represented another individualised point of view, someone observing and surveying the avatar, rather than a neutral, disembodied and objective camera.
 
 
grant
16:03 / 22.03.08
Halo2 on Xbox has a split screen/multiplayer mode. I've been on the bottom screen while my stepson was on the top. Shooting the hell out of me. I did manage to get the drop on him once or twice by watching him watching me through his eyes.
 
  

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