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Recent PhD Says We're All Loons!

 
 
trouble at bill
11:04 / 20.01.08
So, it's official at long last. I can only hope you're not all too mentally ill to read on and agree wholeheartedly with this vastly wise piece of work. ;-)
 
 
Seth
13:18 / 20.01.08
Can anyone provide a link to the actual study, what was asked, where she found her sample, how she has defined 'mental health' and how it was carried out? I'm drawing a blank on the small amount of time I have available.

Thoughts: There's no mention of young people who have experienced abuse, trauma, bigotry, ignorance and other milder forms of negative experiences within organised religion and have gone their own route in order to try and sort their heads out along with the timeframe involved (well into adulthood) to try and bring about an effective healing of themselves. This will account for a significant slice of her sample size and will go some way to disproving her facile conclusions.

There's also no mention of other factors in their backgrounds that might have contributed, no mention of a representative sample of atheists or agnostics for comparison, and no mention that the conclusion could be seen as the other way around, with mental illness possibly being a contributing factor to people forming non-traditional religious beliefs.

There's also no mention of accounting for the honesty of the people who give the accounts. There is arguably more stigma attached to admitting mental illness amongst Christians, for example, because of the perceived public humiliation of having little faith (it can't be God's fault, after all). A person who has forged their own path might not have these hang ups, may be more used to doubt and self questioning and therefore able to admit their weaknesses. Those belonging to an evangelical faith will be much more likely to see themselves as an advert for that faith and to wish to present themselves as perfect. That's not something as simple as lying to the researcher, it's to do with social and religious pressures and they may even live lives that are so unexamined and with so much of their experience surpressed that they are presently unable to see themselves as mentally ill.

Other people in religious faiths are also more likely to limit the types of experiences they're willing to have because of the moral guidelines set out by their faiths. As a result the assumptions upon which they might build their perspectives may not hold the kind of rigour that is true for people who have invested in experimentation at an early stage. I would therefore probably expect young people who have 'non-traditional' beliefs to be a bit messier earlier in life, but once the tests of life set in and adults experience the deaths of their parents and friends, the failures of their jobs and business ventures, the breakdown of their relationships with their partners and children... well, put it this way: I've always known far fewer happier Christian adults than I have Christian teenagers. And I've known a lot of both.

"This adult life ain't matching up to what my Bible told me. Wish I'd realised earlier innit." - Billy Graham.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:44 / 20.01.08
A search on Google Scholar and the Australasian Digital Theses Program database fails to bring up the relevant document. Which makes it likely that Ms. Aird hasn't published her findings in a peer-reviewed journal or made it available through ADT. Although I agree with Seth and Bill that the conclusions sound facile, it's no good dissing it on the basis of this piece, which is likely either the product of a local news-reporter's interpretation of her findings or the product of the media relations people at her Uni. So until I can find her thesis in full, a reliable summary of it or a paper based on the same data, I'll withhold judgment on her work.
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
17:41 / 20.01.08
This is the person here.

She is still only a phd candidate so this could not end up being part of the thesis anyway. There is an email address..
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:55 / 20.01.08
Hm. She is referred to as Dr. Aird in the article (page 2), which would suggest that she has completed her PhD. It could be a mistake though. Agreed that curious parties could always email her for a copy of her thesis, or even just for a comment on the veracity and representativeness of the article re her study.
 
 
Mirror
21:51 / 20.01.08
Recent PhD Says We're All Loons!

What's she pursuing her degree in, "Methods of stating the obvious?"

(kidding, kidding...)
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:18 / 21.01.08
I'm interested in how we know that standards are so lax at the University of Queensland that they are allowing for "facile" results in their students doctoral work. Why aren't they being held up to the same standards as other doctorates at other institutions?

I am also interested in our insight into her sample group, have the above posters done some research which would counter these results?
 
 
Seth
09:41 / 21.01.08
Reidcourchie: Those are odd questions considering my first paragraph makes it clear that I haven't read the actual work on which the article is based but would like to. It's got to be fairly clear to you that what I go on to write is speculative... but your comments on standard of doctorates and whether I've done my own research miss the mark a little. In the past I've read a couple of supposedly peer reviewed studies that don't even slightly stand up to scrutiny to someone with even a layman's understanding of the issues, so you don't need to have undertaken your own study in order to be able to write about why you believe the working methods to be poor. That doesn't apply here as in those cases I had read the work, and here I make it clear that I haven't... I mention it here to explain why I'm less inclined to have a default reaction of being impressed when websites put out these kinds of "news" stories. Agreed, my post is speculative... but I set it out as a bunch of unanswered questions that I have about the working methods so it should be fairly obvious that it's speculation.

In the mean time roll on someone finding the actual study that was conducted. I will be surprised if it has taken account of any of the factors that I have mentioned, very surprised if it has taken account of all of them. I would consider an understanding of the potential of those factors to bias results a minimum prerequisite before even conducting the study, and I would like to see how she has accounted for them.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:05 / 21.01.08
Something else which is not considered in the report is a community environment, traditional faiths have or have received centres where a sense of community can be formed and gathered. Some of these centres are state sanctioned or supported by a greater monetary income.

The difference with 'alternative' spirituality's is that at least in the uk, no communal space is provided for these faiths, i should imagine if one building in a town and several in a city were put aside for so called secular forms of spirituality the findings would be very different, even if all the respective differing forms of spirituality had to share that building.

Having a space and an area where people can gather makes a vast difference to a feeling of community. The idea that secular spirituality is some how only individualistic is a misnomer, given the opportunity and ability to become part of the community structure through civil integration it would do so.

The day such spaces exist through public funds, will really put those spiritualities too the test. Until then the comparison is always going to be a lopsided one, because the physical realities and expressions are not permitted the same freedoms.
 
 
eye landed
23:59 / 21.01.08
my goodness! next she will be linking these demographics with drug use and deviant sexual behaviour! maybe even with voting for the green party!

i should imagine if one building in a town and several in a city were put aside for so called secular forms of spirituality the findings would be very different, even if all the respective differing forms of spirituality had to share that building.

this is exactly the case at the university i attend. we have an 'interfaith' counselling centre and an 'interfaith' chapel (with a garden). chaplains include 'Bahà'í, Buddhist, Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Wiccan appointees.' at the chapel, ive attended events related to wicca, anishinaabe spirituality, deep ecology (i.e. gaia/evolution as spirituality), and buddhist meditation. they do labyrinth workshops but ive only ever sneaked in alone. they do catholic mass, evangelist and bahai music, and islamic prayer too, but i havent attended any.

if threadrot persists, a new thread can be made...but my question is, what would you suggest i do with this space? and how will it heal the loony magicians?
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
05:17 / 22.01.08
I emailed Rosemary, her Doctorate was granted in November, and her thesis has been submitted to her university's library, but not yet published there. Having said that, her thesis would cost ~$70 or so to obtain from the UQ library. It might get published on the ADT at some point, though.

To rip apart someone's thesis based on its reportage in a newspaper is poor form, really. Seth's points are valid, but without knowing the methodology and how good Dr Aird's supervisor is, there's no way you can decide it's rubbish. Also, they don't tend to let people graduate with shoddy theses - they are peer reviewed fairly stringently, even in Queensland[1].

(this paragraph not directed at anyone particularly, just the tone from the thread in general - I am aware that no-one has specifically posted that the thesis is rubbish)

I'll see if my uni can order a copy, when it's available.


[1]
That's a joke. They don't have standards up north.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
08:41 / 22.01.08
Good work!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:57 / 22.01.08
To rip apart someone's thesis based on its reportage in a newspaper is poor form, really.

I think its reasonable enough to comment on the author's direct quotes concerning her work in said newspaper report though, many of which I think are more than a little problematic and contentious.
 
 
Seth
10:06 / 22.01.08
We're not capable of ripping apart her thesis, because we haven't read it. We are capable of commenting on what she's said, as well as setting out what we believe to be a minimum standard of understanding of the issues and risks that you'd need to have before attempting such a study. I'm interested in reading what she's done, so good work on contacting her.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:16 / 22.01.08
I'm not a looney. I'm a dinosaur.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:54 / 22.01.08
Well, if you self identify as a loony magician you could volunteer to represent what ever form of magic you are practising at the chapel.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:00 / 22.01.08
More usefully: I'd be interested to see research into how many people are drawn to or remain within the magic/alternative spirituality spectrum because of a pre-existing psychiatric conditions or emotional disturbance which is alleviated by their practices.
 
 
eye landed
00:24 / 23.01.08
I'd be interested to see research into how many people are drawn to or remain within the magic/alternative spirituality spectrum because of a pre-existing psychiatric conditions or emotional disturbance which is alleviated by their practices.

cuz jesus wont touch that shit with a ten foot pole. 'whoa nelly, i said id save your soul, not listen to you whine all day.'

Well, if you self identify as a loony magician you could volunteer to represent what ever form of magic you are practising at the chapel.

thats exactly what im getting at. the issue is that im a terrible magician and a terrible representative of both loonies and magicians (and in a bit of a bad mood to boot). but obviously im thinking about this project now. i guess this thread is not the place...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
03:54 / 23.01.08
So people with psychiatric disorders are whiners now. You really are a piece of work, chum. FTR I was talking about practices such as meditation, which have a demonstrable effect on one's mood and general wellbeing, and other forms of magical practice which can help focus the mind or elevate the mood, for instance.

(I used to say I'd never wish my condition on anyone. These days I've started wishing it on everyone, just temporarily, like for the odd fortnight. We hear a lot about the "Worried Well" but increasingly it's the Smug Sane who honk me off.)
 
  
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