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Terms and Conditions

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:31 / 11.01.08
We've talked before about terms and conditions on Barbelith, and what the minimum expectations might be for a user of Barbelith to have about their conduct on site. As is ever the case, attempts to form this up by consensus have been enlightening but have not had a conclusion.

Now, since a load of people should be at least given the chance to enter in the near future, and since we are in a constant process of deciding what might work for the next iteration of this social space, I put some Ts and Cs together, which I would like to kick around here.

I realise that King Mob would not approve. However, King Mob has never had to cover his arse online.

Draft text:

Please note that by joining Barbelith/staying on Barbelith, you are agreeing to certain statements and certain standards of conduct as a user of Barbelith. These are:

That this is your only login to access Barbelith, and that you are not using multiple identities or multiple logins to access the site.

That you are of an age and entitled by the law of your country to join an unfiltered Internet message board.

That you agree not to post any abusive, obscene, hateful, threatening or pornographic material, or material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where Barbelith is hosted or International Law. That you accept that posting such material may result in an immediate ban, and possibly in the notification of your ISP.

That you abide by the standards of behaviour on Barbelith, which have evolved over time and may result in warnings or bannings for actions including but not limited to trolling, spamming, excessive self-promotion, harassment, the use of abusive terms based on race, gender or sexuality, or statements judged to be prejudicial regarding race, gender or sexuality.

That you understand that Barbelith is administrated by moderators, who will on occasion move, retitle or alter threads, or modify or delete posts, or ban users. Actions by moderators may be discussed in the Policy.

That you understand that banning may occur for a number of reasons. In most cases, banning discussions take place before any such action, and provide a forum for representation. In the case of egregious violations of our terms and conditions, this may not take place. By logging in to Barbelith, you agree to abide by the decision of moderators regarding bannings: you are free to disagree with, argue against or challenge your own banning or another’s, but you agree not to seek by any means to return to the board once banned, unless specifically invited by the moderators of Barbelith.

That you will not seek by any means to gain access to another person’s user details (login name, password, or email address), or seek to identify any user of Barbelith by given name or location wihout their express permission, nor impersonate or seek to impersonate another user of Barbelith, nor make any personal information about any other user of Barbelith public without their explicit permission.

Barbelith stores the text of your application email correspondence in a gmail account, and stores your username, password and login email on a server. This information will only be shared with relevant parties - that is, administrators of the admissions process. However, Barbelith will not be held responsible for that data being compromised through any hacking attempt or technical failure: please submit any information in the knowledge of this.

Barbelith offers a “Private Messaging” service, for direct communication between two users. The content of these messages is seen only by you and the recipient. However, Barbelith will not be held responsible for that data being compromised through any hacking attempt or technical failure: please submit any information in the knowledge of this. Reproduction of the content of Private Messages on the open board, except with permission or in cases of trolling, harrassment or abuse, is not generally recommended. The use of the Private Messaging system for trolling, spamming, excessive self-promotion, harassment, the use of abusive terms based on race, gender or sexuality, or statements judged to be prejudicial regarding race, gender or sexuality may lead to moderator action and banning.

That you understand that by joining Barbelith, you agree to be bound by these rules, and understand that these rules may be changed at any point, with a copy circulated via the Policy forum and the FAQ.

 
 
Spaniel
10:58 / 11.01.08
Sounds reasonable to me
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
15:07 / 11.01.08
A good wording of what I suppose is supposed to happen in theory anyway. Thus I like, and I offer my appreciation for the effort you've put in to get it all in writing Haus.
 
 
unbecoming
15:24 / 11.01.08
the use of abusive terms based on race, gender or sexuality, or statements judged to be prejudicial regarding race, gender or sexuality.

should disability be added here?
 
 
jentacular dreams
15:24 / 11.01.08
That you abide by the standards of behaviour on Barbelith, which have evolved over time and may result in warnings or bannings for actions including but not limited to trolling, spamming, excessive self-promotion, harassment, the use of abusive terms based on race, gender or sexuality, or statements judged to be prejudicial regarding race, gender or sexuality.

Could we throw faith in there too?

(Edit: and seconding disability.)

you agree not to seek by any means to return to the board once banned, unless specifically invited by the moderators of Barbelith.

This could cause problems in the case of a minority of moderators *passionately* disagreeing with a ban. Which bring us onto the (obviously less immediate) question: do we need additional formal T&Cs for mods?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:37 / 11.01.08
There's not a huge amount of point - we can't stop moderators from being moderators, so the only way to deal with a rogue moderator is to ban him or her. But you're right - maybe just take out that bit.
 
 
grant
16:36 / 11.01.08
In most cases, banning discussions take place before any such action, and provide a forum for representation. In the case of egregious violations of our terms and conditions, this may not take place.

Maybe insert "in the Policy & Help forum" after "discussions"?


And maybe "or threats to the operational integrity of the board" after "conditions"?

All in all, it looks great.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:00 / 11.01.08
Only had time for a quick skim (will have a more in-depth read later) but so far it looks good.
 
 
semioticrobotic
17:09 / 11.01.08
I addition to ability and faith, can we add "age"?

Also, I seem to remember an incident during the paranoidwriter banning process having to do with ownership of private messages. Paranoidwriter thought they were his and that Tom was legally obligated to forward him the contents of his PM box upon his being banned. Should we include something in the PM section of Ts and Cs regarding ownership of private messages? Who do folks think should have control of these?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:32 / 11.01.08
And, for that matter, the content of the board itself- pw also, as I recall, demanded a list of all moderation decisions, and I seem to remember K******** getting all up in arms about posts of his being deleted because he "held the copyright".

Obviously this only appears to have applied to mentalists in the past, but it should be borne in mind.
 
 
Mon Oncle Ignatius
19:35 / 11.01.08
Pretty much what everyone else said above - a bit of a me-too, I'm afraid, but I just wanted to register my general agreement, and appreciation for the effort.
 
 
Tsuga
21:49 / 11.01.08
I'll me too the me too too.
I do have a few comments:
1. To discourage people from seeing a large block of text and skipping it all (like when you see a EULA), it may be a good idea to have the parts about prejudice, which are really the most important (at least, I think that's what people were mostly getting at when they started talking about T&C in the first place) in bold at the top, before things like "no multiple logins" and such.
Also,
2. "obscene" is one of those words that can be in the eye of the beholder. Of course, people will argue about offensivepornographicabusivehateful and about anything else they can think of to argue about, really. I guess for some reason obscene strikes me as even more ambiguous, and since I can't really explain it well, maybe just ignore me on that one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:24 / 11.01.08
Thing is, I don't think I've ever read the T&Cs of anywhere I've ever joined. I think the reason Barbelith needs them is more as protection for Barbelith itself from people who argue that trollish or otherwise gitty behaviour is somehow acceptable. If we've already quantified what isn't, we're sorted.
 
 
EvskiG
03:03 / 12.01.08
If people want a polite statement of the Barbelith code of conduct, and to give new users a sense of what is and isn't tolerated, the above looks like a very good start.

If people want this to be a legal agreement enforceable in the courts of the U.S. and/or U.K. it could use a bit more tweaking. But that's almost certainly unnecessary.

(I've written a few of these things over the years.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:49 / 12.01.08
I wasn't thinking so much of a legal statement, as a "no Hawaiian shirts" sign the bartender can point to when the guy in the Hawaiian shirt starts trying to pick a fight.
 
 
Lama glama
13:23 / 12.01.08
Nicely worded, with no apparent wiggle room or loop-holes. I was going to suggest adding a note about user names in the section on prejudice. Remember the kerfuffle that some questionable user-names have caused in the past, like Sensitive R*****? I suppose such a rule is implied in the prejudice section.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:32 / 12.01.08
In addition to ability and faith, can we add "age"?

Damn straight.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:21 / 14.01.08
The loyal opposition begs to differ.

For what it's worth, I think Our Lady's line of enquiry is entirely justified. And I wonder what purpose is to be served by putting out-of-bounds a human experience that is not only universal, but transitory.

I mean: I will never be black; I will never be a woman; I will never know what it is to be born with a disability. But I was once young, and I remember what it was like. And now I am old, and I take some stick for that—but my interlocutors, too, will be old one day, if they're lucky, and that knowledge gives us all a little perspective on the subject.

Semiotic Robotic (and anybody else who'd like to step up): I'd like to hear your arguments for an age-based protection. I'm open to persuasion, but I'm not sure I understand either the need for or the purpose of such a provision. Is there a spate of vicious intergenerational warfare going on in some corner of the board of which I am unaware?
 
 
semioticrobotic
14:43 / 14.01.08
Simply put, I don't necessarily object to the invocation of age as a category of experience or socio-cultural index; I do object when this is done in ways that are prejudicial, derogatory or discriminatory.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:09 / 14.01.08
Examples, please?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:19 / 14.01.08
"Barbelith increasingly resembles an episode of Dad's Army: hapless, moaning old men bumbling about ineffectually, under the illusion they are protecting their homeland."
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:39 / 14.01.08
But is that an unfair description of Dad's Army?
 
 
Ex
09:58 / 15.01.08
Examples, please?

"You can't contribute anything useful to this discussion because you're 43." Or "20".

But probably more subtle stuff about creating a hostile environment for age-diverse contributors e.g. comments that characters in films are too old to be of any interest, comments that a band is stupid and lacks depth and will thus appeal to 20-year-olds.

We do pass through different life phases, but that doesn't stop there being big social prejudices against certain of those stages for different reasons. It'd be nice to keep that to a minimum. It's different from the gender/sexuality/race thing and it's not as often spelled out, so I may not be making the nest job of it, but it still exists.
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:09 / 16.01.08
Good work Haus, that looks like the kind of thing we need.

I agree that ability should be included. As to the age stuff, if we don't have much of an ageism problem then there shouldn't be an issue with putting it on the list should there?
 
 
Jack Fear
10:40 / 16.01.08
Actually, I'd take the fact that we don't have much of an ageism problem as an argument for keeping age off the list.
 
 
werwolf
10:53 / 16.01.08
That you agree not to post any abusive, obscene, hateful, threatening or pornographic material, or material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where Barbelith is hosted or International Law. [...]

the part about "laws be it of your country, the country where Barbelith is hosted or International Law" seems a bit problematic to me. shouldn't that be reduced to laws of the poster's country and perhaps "international law"? do you expect all new users to know where barbelith.com is hosted from and keep up to date if servers move and read up on the new host country's laws?

generally not a big advocate of t&c but as barbelith is [or is supposed to be] a very organic community, shouldn't there be an entry stating that users agree to adapt to and accept forms of conduct at barbelith.com that came from within barbelith and have gained board-specific validity - even if those are not covered by t&c's or etiquette posts?
i'm thinking here of board-specific customs [e.g. special temple or head shop or switchboard idiosyncrasies] that might be created in time and not find their way to either t&c or etiquette postings [at least not initially].
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:36 / 16.01.08
Which bring us onto the (obviously less immediate) question: do we need additional formal T&Cs for mods?

I don't think that would achieve anything. Tom isn't going to add more moderators or remove moderators, for the foreseeable future. So, there is no way to make people moderators or remove moderator powers.
 
  
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