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Childhood Faith

  
 
EmberLeo
08:56 / 07.01.08
This is also an entry in my LJ, and moreover, is something I'm trying to pull out of right now, because I'm very distressed. I thought it might make a good conversation, and that we could learn good things from each other - maybe some good out of pain.

So here goes:

My Mom finds it interesting that I appeal to my gods when I'm in distress. She is impressed with the depth of my faith. She tells me that psychological studies have shown that most folks, when under duress, fall back to their childhood faith.

I think I appeal to whichever gods feel related to my situation. In my current life, there's plenty to choose from affecting almost every aspect of my realities.

But when I am distressed about something connected with my family, or my childhood, I instinctively retreat to just Me and the Universe. Despite my time in the Episcopal church, my childhood faith is definitely Pantheism, and my inner child is definitely NOT a polytheist.

Which is a bit painful, really. It's wonderful to feel connected to the Universe - something I can't help but feel would bring a lot of healing and understanding to everyone could they but experience it. Yet I feel the gods help me figure out solutions to my problems in a way that The Universe is a little too... much... to really help. The Universe teaches me how to be ME completely, no more, no less, and that's okay. But that doesn't really tell me anything about how to interact with things outside my Self.

So when I'm up against a trial stemming from my childhood, based on difficulties interacting with others, intellectually I tell myself to ask my gods for help, but emotionally, I cannot imagine who to ask for what kind of help, or how. All I feel is my Self, my integrity of Identity, is threatened...

... And I retreat into my relationship with the Universe. It's comforting. It's protective. It restores my compassion, strength, and will.

But it doesn't make the monsters go away when I come back out.
----------------

What do the beliefs you acquired in childhood bring you now? How do your current beliefs - if different - compensate for any gaps left by your childhood faith?

--Ember--
 
 
Haloquin
13:03 / 07.01.08
... And I retreat into my relationship with the Universe. It's comforting. It's protective. It restores my compassion, strength, and will.

But it doesn't make the monsters go away when I come back out.

This rang a bell for me. So far, doing this, I personally feel like I come out better able to face the monsters (not that my monsters have been particularly huge). Its a strange thought, but although I've been acting polytheistic since I was about 11, I still turn to just 'Me and Mum' unless there is nothing I can do at all. If I can't act I turn to individual deities, like when my cat got hit by a car... I couldn't do anything, but I prayed to Bast for healing, and to Sekhmet when she (the cat) got stolen. I don't normally work with Egyptian deities, but these two have always been of interest to me just because of the connection with cats.

Recently, when my back has hurt too much to think and I've begun to feel depressed, I send the pain to Hella as an offering. But to deal with it I retreat to that feeling of being held, that quiet of the connection with the universe. And now I think about it, that was the good thing I found in Christianity, I think. I have vague memories of God as the universal feeling. I rejected Christianity when I found alternatives but I never left behind the Universe-Protector-Loving-Parent idea/feeling.


What do the beliefs you acquired in childhood bring you now? How do your current beliefs - if different - compensate for any gaps left by your childhood faith?

This is difficult for me as what I remember of my childhood is the moving away from Christianity at about age 11 and coming to learn about Wicca and Paganism. I suppose as I've moved on from book-based Wicca into more freestyle Paganism/Witchcraft I've kept the sense that every deity is a part of the universal Godhood, but I've come to understand that that is in the same way we are. We are part of the universe, and so part of One, just like the Gods are. But that doesn't make us or them any less individual so they are no more interchangable than human beings (or any less).

I've always believed that causing hurt is bad; I refused to pick flowers because I didn't want to hurt the plants, I hated it when friends ripped parts off trees. So this is something I've kept. And I'm slowly making this into an active part of my life in trying to recycle, buy organic/free range stuff etc. But current beliefs balance this with a sense that hurt and death are necessary, so I'm trying to find a balance and am not beating myself up for still eating meat, for example.

I don't think I was ever properly Christian, I liked the trappings - the book, the prayers, the rituals - but mum isn't Christian, so it wasn't heavily represented at home. It was in school a lot, and Cubs/Scouts, and my Grandparents are Church of England (I used to help them at the church, go to Sunday school and sing in the choir) so I called myself Christian, but I don't think it was an accurate label.

Thanks for starting this thread, its interesting to think about, even if I'm a bit vague!
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
18:03 / 07.01.08
even in the face of pantheistic openness, I find myself interjecting "Jesus Christ!" at moments of suprise, shock or jolting.

I've had to come to terms with this vocal appeal to a christian character, so that I'm not constantly annoying him for favours I don't really need.

I've been relying on my childhood beliefs all along, to varying degrees, because they made sense to me then & now, and much of what was imposed on me didn't. I was told what to do, but I didn't learn the why's wherefore's and all that, because it was never presented to me in a reasonable fashion.

(Astrologically: sun, moon, ascendant, mars & neptune are all in fixed signs i.e. I've always been the most stubborn bastard I know).

Most of my adulthood has been an exercise in learning how to express my childhood beliefs, in a way that could be communicated to others. This has been the essence of my frustration, as much of my childhood & adolescence was spent hearing the words "shut up" "be quiet" "no one cares what you think" "You think too much" etc...

all that to say, I've had recent breakthrough in finding words to fit my belief. I've always felt great sympathy for the animals around me (I've got a circus parade of totems), and have adamantly resisted any thoughts of their inferiority and servitude.

The difference between animals and people is cultural.

My totems provide me with all the solace I've needed, and their agents are everywhere. Pity I can't explain it in these terms to most people I interact with.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:24 / 07.01.08
Haloquin: I prayed to Bast for healing, and to Sekhmet when she (the cat) got stolen. I don't normally work with Egyptian deities, but these two have always been of interest to me just because of the connection with cats.

My Kemetic friends tell me this is pretty common. Even folks who don't believe in gods in general may honor Bast if they love cats. My Mom, who makes sure to be very clear with me about her lack of trust in Polytheism, declared that my (now dead) cat was clearly an avatar of Bast. When I pointed out that she doesn't believe in Bast, she replied that it didn't matter, because my cat did. *Shakes her head*

I rejected Christianity when I found alternatives but I never left behind the Universe-Protector-Loving-Parent idea/feeling.

*nod* That's very similar to the feeling I experience, yes. I'm glad to hear others describe it so clearly. Thank you.

Squib: I find myself interjecting "Jesus Christ!" at moments of suprise, shock or jolting.

Mmm, I do that too, but I think it's cultural, rather than a signal of any faith on my part.

(Astrologically: sun, moon, ascendant, mars & neptune are all in fixed signs i.e. I've always been the most stubborn bastard I know).

[tangent] Hee! Yep I know how that is. I have my Sun, Moon and four planets forming a grand cross in the fixed signs, including a triple conjunction in Scorpio, which is my first house. I hear that means I'm both an unstoppable force AND an immoveable object! Wheee! [/tangent]

Most of my adulthood has been an exercise in learning how to express my childhood beliefs, in a way that could be communicated to others. This has been the essence of my frustration, as much of my childhood & adolescence was spent hearing the words "shut up" "be quiet" "no one cares what you think" "You think too much" etc...

Ouch. Yeah, thankfully my parents both encouraged me to express myself.

My totems provide me with all the solace I've needed, and their agents are everywhere. Pity I can't explain it in these terms to most people I interact with.

Is there a pagan community near you? They'd understand better than most, perhaps...

--Ember--
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
21:54 / 07.01.08
thanks Ember.

I'm in the land of pagans, neo-pagans, witches, warlocks, wikkans, etc (at least insofar as Canada goes). So far, it hasn't really been my cup of tea either. I've learned much from the community, and shared back, but it's not quite right.

Personally, I think it has to do with the climate. This is not the bioregion in which I spent my childhood, and the seasons don't feel quite right.
 
 
Z. deScathach
04:28 / 08.01.08
This is an interesting topic to come across. I recently went to a three part talk at a methodist church on Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" as a paradigm for tranformation. There was a little service attached, and I found it quite comforting, especially at a time when my life is in such unimagineable turmoil, (you have no idea). I was brought up catholic, and there was this overwhelming sense of, "I can't deal with this, take care of me..... please just take care of me....." I miss that, the idea of Daddy God. It was easy as a child to grab on to that belief, as my father was the sane one of the family. He was also like me, wild and artistic. He always encouraged me to express my spirit, while my mother did her best to kill it.

This all makes me wonder whether that might explain why I tend to have a hard time with "The Goddess", and gravitated into magick as it's own practice, with very little trappings of religion. It also brings up the question as to whether a relationship with said Goddess might not heal some things up. Food for thought....

Still, yes. Daddy God is very comforting right now....
 
 
Haloquin
12:36 / 08.01.08
the idea of Daddy God. It was easy as a child to grab on to that belief, as my father was the sane one of the family. Z. deScathach

Funny, in a similar vein, I find 'Mummy God' an easier concept... probably because my Dad, while supportive, didn't live with us (parents divorced when I was 2) and my Step-Dads were mildly unstable/verbally abusive. Whereas Mum was supportive, creative, familiar and there. Having said that, while the term and imagery of 'mum' fits happiest for me, theres always an androgynous feeling for Universe.
 
 
archim3des
14:40 / 08.01.08
I dig this question, because I've actually given it some thought. In recent years, my magical style has been trended towards overly verbose, Crowleyan/GD-based rituals, and when compared to my childhood faith of Roman Catholicism. Whenever I make a ritual, I seem to fill it with a bunch of pomp and circumstance, lots of novenas to different deific figures, repetitive circle walking, and waving a lot of incense. Which in the ends sounds very similar to any sort of Catholic mass, a lot of boring intonations listing the qualities of a deity or Christian character (Mary, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, etc.), "Our Father, who art in heaven...", "Blessed art Thee called Malkuth, Thou art Adonai Ha-Aretz in Emanation..". I feel that such repetition helps me sort of ground myself in the ritual, and its the way I hit Gnosis in a ceremonial setting.
In this way, in the past year or so, I've started to feel an affinity building with the Catholic Hagiography. Ironically enough, I felt that a good dose of regular pagan worship for a few years has allowed me to better understand the metaphors and powers that the different Christian saints represent.
 
 
monkeymind
23:00 / 30.01.08
When I was a little 'un I thought that all the gods and goddesses of the pantheons other than the Christian pantheon were angels. Because even though as a good little catholic boy I was taught that there is only one god, that worshiping any other god would send you to hell, didn't jibe. What about the millions of people who hadn't even heard the "word" of God? Did that mean they were going to hell even through no fault of their own? What about the millions of people before Christianity? Made no sense to me. If there was a God, then he must have made himself known to those people in different forms according to the culture in which they lived.

Fast forward 30 years or so and I've abandoned the Christian concept of God almost completely. I still believe that perhaps there is one underlying force - but with billions of faces. For god is something individual to each of us. And if that face to you is Jehovah or Krishna or Loki, male, female, both or neither, it makes no difference.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:12 / 30.01.08
So you've ended up somewhat Unitarian?

That makes a fair amount of sense.

--Ember--
 
 
treekisser
13:04 / 31.01.08
What do the beliefs you acquired in childhood bring you now?

I think my childhood beliefs (and looking at the thread, I assume you mean religious ones only) can be summed up as: a) there is a god, and b) that god listens to me when I pray, and CARES.

How do your current beliefs - if different - compensate for any gaps left by your childhood faith?

I think of those childhood beliefs as a core that I can't change, so I try to make sure that whatever my current beliefs are, they don't contradict that core.

So, for example, since I believe in a super-duper omni-omni god, I'm also led to the idea that that god probably wouldn't care about or even bother to listen to us mere mortals. But actually believing that would cause some serious conflict, so instead I stick to the 'rational' belief that this god may or may not listen, which allows me to keep my 'emotive' belief that he/she/it does.
 
 
EvskiG
14:08 / 31.01.08
What about the millions of people who hadn't even heard the "word" of God? Did that mean they were going to hell even through no fault of their own?

This actually ties in to our recent discussion of John 3:16-18 and that baffling (well, baffling to me) belief that unless one hears about Jesus and professes belief in him as Savior that one is damned to Hell for eternity.

I've been reading a bit of fundamentalist Christian apologetics recently and learned the magnificent term "transworld depravity." Essentially, it says that because God is good and wouldn't damn people to Hell for no fault of their own, people who were born somewhere that they would never hear the Word of God were by their natures not disposed to accept that Word regardless of where they were born. In all possible times and places they would have rejected Jesus as Savior. They had transworld depravity.

That's the name of my next band.

What about the millions of people before Christianity?

Most of 'em appear to have been fucked. Oops.

There are a few arguments for how the "Old Testament Saints" (Abraham, etc.) were saved. My favorite is the Harrowing of Hell: Jesus staged a Rambo-style commando raid.
 
 
*
01:36 / 01.02.08
When I was a kid, I wasn't taught any formal religion, but somewhere I heard of this God thing and enough about this dude Jesus to think the most important thing about him was that he was the quintessential Nice Person. I had an interesting relationship with that God thing in that I talked to it a lot in my head, and sometimes asked for things, but mostly it was just a good listener. And I made up scenarios that explored such complex ethical issues as "If God strikes someone with lightning to punish them for bad behavior, but leaves them terribly wounded but alive, is a doctor obligated to treat them, or obligated to let them die?" (The answer: If God wanted them dead, God would have finished the job Godself; get the fuck in there and help.)

All this is leading up to saying that now I am learning that the unity of the Divine and the plurality of the Divine are both important to me, and are likely to stay that way. That's a good thing.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:54 / 01.02.08
Essentially, it says that because God is good and wouldn't damn people to Hell for no fault of their own, people who were born somewhere that they would never hear the Word of God were by their natures not disposed to accept that Word regardless of where they were born. In all possible times and places they would have rejected Jesus as Savior. They had transworld depravity.

Wait... meaning God had them be born there because God already knew they were irredeemable? But.. that's predestination, which renders the question of salvation moot, because if we don't have free will it's not our choice to follow Jesus that matters anyway and and.... Ngh.... I hate that about those interpretations of Christian doctrine.

--Ember--
 
 
Katherine
15:32 / 01.02.08
What do the beliefs I acquired in childhood bring me now? Faith that no matter how crap life is at the moment I continue,

That they haven't forgotten me,

I am here,

And they know it.

They are waiting for my commitment to my path to move for me like any friend I have would

And I Am Not Alone On This World



As per a post I just put in the Argh Anger thread in Convo, I have been drinking so I will admit to not being on the top of my game but these would be my belief anyway.
 
 
EvskiG
16:25 / 01.02.08
Wait... meaning God had them be born there because God already knew they were irredeemable? But.. that's predestination, which renders the question of salvation moot, because if we don't have free will it's not our choice to follow Jesus that matters anyway

God's omniscience isn't inconsistent with free will: God knowing what you're going to choose doesn't necessarily mean you don't freely choose.

Here's what's usually seen as the biggest problem to some Christians:

Postulate 1: God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good.

Postulate 2: Some people will go to Hell and be damned for eternity.

They're essentially incompatible.

If God didn't know some people would go to Hell, He's not omniscient. If God couldn't create a world where no one goes to Hell, He's not omnipotent. And if God doesn't mind some people going to Hell when He could have created a world where no one goes to Hell, He's not perfectly good.

Lots of attempts to patch this with doctrines like free will, transworld depravity, and Leibniz's idea that this is the best of all possible worlds.

But perhaps this all should go in a theology topic. If there's sufficient interest, that is.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:40 / 01.02.08
Because even though as a good little catholic boy I was taught that there is only one god, that worshiping any other god would send you to hell, didn't jibe

To me, growing up as a Catholic boy always felt like there was a big opening for polytheism to begin with. because, even though it was made clear that "only GOD is God", there were many intermediary power one could plea to, such as the many thousands saints, angels, and most of all, the Holy Mother.

After all, asking for God to help out might be a bit of a waste of time, since the Old Man would follow His previoysly concocted plan no matter what, but asking, for instance, for help from Saint Expeditus (the patron saint of procastinators) might do the trick a lot better.


I'm still pretty much a Catholic, since I believe in the power of saints and of the Vatican's hierarchy (those guys have some kick-ass magicians working for them, the only difference being they are referred to as "exorcists"), but my sensibilites are much closer to Alan Kardec's spiritism and native-Christian sects, such as Santo Daime, and agnosticism than they used to be as kid.

That's why I like religious syncretism and all-faith ecumenism: if it works, use it; don't thing about where it came from.

In time, I'm not sure if I still believe in a Daddy God, but that makes little difference, since, as an adult, I feel to proud to ask Him for help anyway.
 
 
Seth
22:46 / 01.02.08
Postulate 1: God is omniscient, omnipotent, and perfectly good.

There's also the logical inconsistency with God being both omniscient and omipotent. If he were omniscient he would already know how he would apply his power in any and every situation, which would leave him powerless to act outside that constraint. It's not possible to be both unless you resort to "it's a paradox" or "it's a mystery," which is beautiful in a way but can just as easily be seen as an evasion of the problem.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
23:16 / 01.02.08
what does omnipotence mean?

if "god" is the source of all power, or the personification of all power, then he doesn't necessarily have to intervene in the sense of the deus ex machina.

omniscient may refer to the source of all light, therefore the mechanism of all sight. all seeing.

good is completely subjective, so it's hard to countenance.
 
 
EmberLeo
00:13 / 02.02.08
Actually, there's an argument for Omniscience not implying prescience. If you accept that the future does not yet exist at all, there is nothing to know until it happens. You can have perfect complete knowledge of all that IS, which may allow you to predict what is likely, and yet not actually know the future, because the future IS NOT.

But I thought there was a call for a separate thread for this stuff?

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
01:22 / 02.02.08
I have a strong god belief under everything i do, i see god as everything that exists nothing excluded.

The problem i ran into was that if god knows everything, he new the rebel angels would fall at various times, he permitted the devil to exist for this very purpose and all the other so called evils of the world are sanctioned by god.

Philosophically this caused me huge problems, i found various answers, gnostic ones and others.

I even at one point came to the conclusion that evil actions of anybody must be considered godly or acts of god, because god is all knowing and must sanction those acts.

But my childhood faith is in a god that loves everybody, warts an all, and gives me strength in times of need and distress and pushes me on to fight for what is just (but that idea of justice is a bigger even more problematic spiralling question for me).

I think i relate to god as a redeemer, a loving redemption.
 
 
treekisser
08:06 / 02.02.08
Ember: . You can have perfect complete knowledge of all that IS, which may allow you to predict what is likely, and yet not actually know the future, because the future IS NOT.

That depends on whether or not you're a determinist. If you are, then having perfect knowledge of the present is sufficient to have perfect knowledge of the future.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:41 / 03.02.08
That depends on whether or not you're a determinist. If you are, then having perfect knowledge of the present is sufficient to have perfect knowledge of the future.

True enough. But it is an argument nonetheless - it's just an argument with counter-arguments

I'm not a determinist, personally...

--Ember--
 
 
x
20:19 / 04.02.08
Interesting discussion... My question here is: what do you mean by "beliefs"? I know it seems like semantic nattering, but are we talking about the specific religious institutions (i.e. smells-&-bells vs davening vs salat vs calling the corners vs however you were raised) or the underlying principles we, as children, naturally extrapolate?

Some of it is certainly cultural. If you grew up around people who yelled some variant of "Jesus!" in emotional moments, chances are good that you will, too. Similarly, if you grew up going to church every Sunday or mosque every Friday or temple every Saturday, you're more likely to notice those days or think of them as special. Remember them, as it were, and keep them holy. But all of that is essentially accidental by birth, like growing up speaking English or Arabic or Mandarin. So as I understand the question, you're wondering about ingrained faith, but not so much the cultural aspects, right?

I was raised an Episcopalian, but the relative I admired most and felt closest to was a non-practicing Jew. So the idea of non-Christians burning eternally in Hell never really stuck to me. Also, I knew several woman priests, who weren't exactly mainstream or even accepted in the Church while I was young; right off the bat, I couldn't accept many of the church's dogmata. So obviously those beliefs never sank in, but the fundamental structure of the faith (scripture, tradition, and reason) sort of did. Scripture-- any sort of "scripture," be it religious, legal, or academic-- alone is as worthless as tradition or reason alone. I can come into basically anything and make reasonable assumptions, but if I don't know the context, my assumptions will be nonsense. As for the actual beliefs... Well, I've never really sought refuge in prayer, and when I do pray I'm just as likely to pray in Hebrew or Arabic as in English or Latin (I grew up in a very formal and old-school church). And the words are all from set formulae-- Psalms or standard prayers-- which is probably cultural, since the Episcopal church isn't huge on improvisation. So maybe we learn the forms of interaction with the divine when we're kids, and then adapt them to adult situations. Just as we learn the grammar of a language as kids and then continue to fill in the vocab later.
 
 
EmberLeo
00:11 / 05.02.08
what do you mean by "beliefs"? I know it seems like semantic nattering, but are we talking about the specific religious institutions (i.e. smells-&-bells vs davening vs salat vs calling the corners vs however you were raised) or the underlying principles we, as children, naturally extrapolate?

Either or both... actually, I think I'm looking for why the former produced the latter, and how that affects you now.

But I'm fine with variations on the theme, since it's not like I'm going to write a book with the answers, I just thought it might be an interesting topic to discuss.

--Ember--
 
  
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