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Breaking my atheism to my Presbyterian parents

03:04 / 07.01.08

So, this Is my first post so I'll introduce myself and then present my...problem.
I'm 15, a webdesigner, and a thinker. I try and stay stylish while keeping up with my geeky tendencies. Umm, around half a year ago I decided I was sick of pretending to be something I wasn't, which is Christian. I let the people at my youth group know, but I still havent let my parents know because, really, how will I benefit?. I know someone will ask me "Don't you think you owe it to them? As your parents and all..." Really, no, I don't feel that way because the fear they've put in me, about how they'll most likely react to finding out I'm athiest quite outweighs the feeling of owing them anything.
Anyhow, as I mentioned in the title, my parents are Presbyterian. According to
the way they interpret the bible, and also how I would if I were Christian (but lets not get into interpretation of the bible right now) they won't let me do some things. Examples of these things are, not letting me date (according to them, you should only date when you're looking for marriage), also, not letting me go to other peoples house when an adult isn't around, and if it's a girl's house I'm supposed to have a male friend with me.
I guess in the end, I think they should see that I've never made any bad descisions, like the ones they're trying to protect me from.
But I'm also done with hiding this from them. So, do you think I should tell them? If so, how should I let them know?

04:38 / 07.01.08

the fear they've put in me, about how they'll most likely react to finding out I'm athiest quite outweighs the feeling of owing them anything.

do you think I should tell them? If so, how should I let them know?

My family's a bunch of hardline atheists and agnostic Presbyterians, and therefore I've never properly come out as non-atheist to them; however, I have come out as very very queer. What I'm seeing here is:

- You're 15 and thus still legally their responsibility; also, you'd be challenged (to say the least) to support yourself should things go terribly badly.

- They've put a pretty solid fear into you of coming out as atheist.

- You've been able to, pretty easily and convincingly (it sounds like), hide the atheism.

Basically, the cons outweigh the pros. Do your own thing on your own time, and wait until you're on your own to admit to the atheism (if it's worth admitting at all, and it may not be worth it).

06:50 / 07.01.08

I have no idea how you should go about telling your parents you're an Atheist. I've never met your parents. I'm very up front with my parents about being Pagan, but I had no reason to fear their reaction. My primary boyfriend still hasn't told his parents he's an Atheist, and he's well into his 30s. Some folks just don't feel their parents need to know.

That said, I don't see your other concerns as being related to their perception of you as an Atheist. Nor do I see it as terribly likely they will be more impressed with your good judgment if you tell them you don't share their values.

Also, it's not very logical - you being an Atheist doesn't change their values, so why would it change their rules? Do your parents believe the rules in the Bible don't apply to Atheists?

As for not having the freedom to date - that does suck. I wasn't allowed on one-on-one dates until I was 16, and even that managed to suck pretty badly. I can only imagine how frustrating it would have been to wait until I was looking for marriage.

But even my own hippie liberal Unitarian parents didn't let me hang out in private places with members of my preferred gender without a chaperone until I graduated from High School, and that was with them assuring me that they did in fact trust my judgment - but not necessarily that of my "peers".

I hate to say it, but whether you tell them you're an Atheist or not, you'll probably have to wait until you're supporting yourself to get out from under those kinds of rules.

--Ember--

the permuted man

10:49 / 07.01.08

As already suggested, consider what you will lose versus what you will gain. Will telling your parents this at this stage of your life result in more freedom or less? Are the restrictions you've mentioned really imposed by your parents or are they fears of yours? Why do you think your parents would not have the same restrictions if you proclaimed a different faith? It seems presumptuous to me to think that the rules they keep for the house would change based on any beliefs other than their own.

If it's the duplicity or dishonesty that's eating away at you, then for your personal health, you may have to let them know one way or another. In that case, there is no easy way. You know your parents' best and too much depends on your relationship and your selves as individuals. If it is merely about obtaining what you perceive as normal freedoms of teenagers, I believe your best course is probably discussing them on an individual basis with your parents. What are the specific rules? Are you sure the rules are based on their faith? What rules do other parents in the church have? Other parents at your school? Etc.

11:26 / 07.01.08

I suppose the reason I've even considered the possibility that they might change their rules for me is because the only justification they ever give me for their rules is the bible.

"Can I go to a PG-13 movie with some friends? I looked it up, it only has a little nudity."
"No, I really don't think you should, and I don't see why you have to want to go to these terrible movies anyway. I mean, what does the bible say, what would Jesus do?"

Eh, I guess I'm only hinging my telling them on that they can't use that justification for anything and everything they don't like in my life.

As to the comment about me being 15 and still 100% their responsibility, I wholeheartedly agree, don't get me wrong there. I just want this to be a mutual relationship until I'm 18. Some give and take, because right now there's no take on their part.

I like what EmberLeo said about them not being any more impressed with my good judgment by telling them I'm Athiest,
you're probably right in that they might think it's just one more thing they have to protect me from now, my "lack of standards." They're always talking about how people without God are people without standards because only Christians truly have a solid foundation to base those standards. I guess it could go either way, they could see it as that I was thinking for myself, haven't ever made any poor choices in the past related to these things. Still a virgin, haven't done drugs, etc (not implying that these are bad things, my parent's would call them bad choices though). Or they could go the other way and act as though they still need to protect me from these things that are their standards because I'm their son, and still under their roof.

the permuted man

12:11 / 07.01.08

I don't want to derail the thread, but it sounds like they are using the bible as a catch all for anything they don't want to have to explain or think through clearly.

"No, I really don't think you should, and I don't see why you have to want to go to these terrible movies anyway. I mean, what does the bible say, what would Jesus do?"

What does the bible say? What would Jesus do? Why don't they tell you that, instead of giving these seemingly (but actually not) rhetorical questions as answers? Unfortunately, it's also very difficult to reason with the line of thought that every preconceived notion of right and wrong one has must be in/from the bible, simply because one professes faith as a Christian.

However, I do see why a reason like that might make you think coming clean about what you truly believe might force them to adjust their explanations. They are putting the burden of decision back on you by saying why would you want to do that anyway, and that would make anyone in your position want to scream: "Because I don't believe that!"

As you say yourself, will this make them see you as misguided or coming responsibly into independence? It's hard to say, but from what you've said so far, it sounds like, at least initially, it will result in more restrictions and some hardship.

I wish I could offer better advice or a clear solution. Personally, I would work with them on unpacking and clearly defining their beliefs and the source of those beliefs--but I do not want to suggest that to you. It's hard enough with a close friend, let alone a relative. With some people it's impossible, and the nature of your relationship with them creates a lot of other elements it will be difficult for them to put into words. Also, I've only had nominal success with this, with my own parents over the years, who are relatively open-minded.

How much importance do your parents place on you gaining independence and asserting your own opinion? If you feel the presence of this influence, how open-ended do you think that support is versus how much do you think they really want to happen in a controlled environment, in which some things -- like religion -- are still taboo areas for independence or (what they might view as) rebellion?

13:03 / 07.01.08

I suppose they've always encourage me to be independant. I even got my dad to match my donation to Ron Paul, and they enjoy listenting to my opinion on topics related to politics, etc. But when it comes to certain things they put there foot down.

Here's an example of how they're more controlling, even when religion doesn't come into play. At one point this year I asked to get a lip ring, I'd pay, etc. I have a job, it's not gonna hurt me much, and lots of people have lip rings. They gave me a firm no, and told me they didn't want that kind of lifestyle reflecting back on them. I argued and debated, questioned, etc. In the end I got them to admit to me that their descision had no logic to it other than that it was their opinion lip rings, and the general demographic that wears them are [in their opinion] bad people. Now I'll come back to them every once in a while rather facetiously.
"Dad, don't wear that shirt to work with those pants!"
"Why? It looked fine to me."
"Because it looks dumb and reflects poorly on ME!"

Anyhow, I never won in that department, and I've often considered walking in the front door with a lip ring, and letting them punish me unjustly. I doubt they could, they're nicer than that. But I'm sure I'd lose trust, not that they seem to trust me very much anyway...

13:16 / 07.01.08

Have you considered binding them to your will with the black arts?

14:05 / 07.01.08

I agree with Talas and Ember that there's very little to gain from telling your parents about your beliefs. There's also very little to gain from creating confrontation (by getting pierced, etc.). And I assure you, I'm speaking from experience here.

I know it seems like it'll be forever before you're out on your own, but the time will come. Have patience and, in the meantime, keep in mind that your parents are acting this way because they love you and want to do what's best for you. It probably doesn't feel like that now, but it's true.

Do you plan to go to college after you graduate? If so, do you think you'll go to school somewhere far from home or close to home?

14:14 / 07.01.08

Breefield, my only real advice would be to remember that, if and when you let them know, you should do so in a way that doesn't attack their beliefs. From what you write they obviously appear to have very strong convictions about their faith and the worst thing (IMO) that you could do is to let them know you're an atheist and then start expecting them to instantly give you more freedom.

Respect for people's world-views needs to go both ways.

14:16 / 07.01.08

At one point this year I asked to get a lip ring, I'd pay, etc. I have a job, it's not gonna hurt me much, and lots of people have lip rings. They gave me a firm no, and told me they didn't want that kind of lifestyle reflecting back on them. I argued and debated, questioned, etc. In the end I got them to admit to me that their descision had no logic to it other than that it was their opinion lip rings, and the general demographic that wears them are [in their opinion] bad people.

And I wasn't allowed to have my ears pieced until I was 16, parents have rules which are not going to be logical. Debating can sometimes work but other times won't, there are arguments you can win and others you won't.

Religion doesn't seem to be the only thing, at the moment it sounds to me that you are rebelling against your parents. You could look at reading the bible closely so when you're parents use the catch-all 'What would Jesus do?' then maybe you can state 'Well, according to X part he would say/do Y'.

Or you could take a good look at how you have been behaving to them and their rules and remembering what I could be like at 15 I bet they are feeling you stretch your wings and are worrying about you especially if you are partly acting as a grown up by debating respectfully and then acting like a child but throwing comments about someone's appearance at them.

I hope I haven't come across as too harsh but breaking your atheism to them will not mean they are going to change as you are legally a child.

14:58 / 07.01.08

keep in mind that your parents are acting this way because they love you and want to do what's best for you

Driver, now that I'm a parent I have a little more sympathy for that point of view than I used to, but I think it's worth bearing in mind that, just like anyone else, parents are motivated by all kinds of things, and that their motivations, whatever their form, don't necessarily have a nice rational basis. In fact trying to manage my very own personal craziness has been a big part of my experience as a father.

Breefield, I can see why you put this in the Temple, but I can't help but feel you would have got a whole heap of good advice had you put it in Convo. We have some excellent agony aunts on the 'Lith and some of them don't spend too much time around these parts.

15:12 / 07.01.08

I mean (...) what would Jesus do?"

My personal response to that question (even though it is not used as much in my turf as it is in the US) is: "You mean, the guy whose first miracle was to make more wine so the PARTY COULD GO ON!!!*? The guy who prefered the company of prostitutes, street bums and (gasp!) tax collectors to kings, lawmakers and scholars? The guy who disaproved hypocrisy more than anything? That Jesus?" But that may be considered a bit hostile..

I have to question you, breefiend, on a point, however. You call yourself atheist but you seem to have a problem not with the concept of a intervening God with a semi-mortal Son as his Prophet/Messias, but with the moral codes of a particular sect of those who claim to follow such doctrine. Are you really a "materialist" who only believes in what you can see and Science can prove (what Dawkins would call a "bright"**) or are you just not into this particular religion? because, you can be a Christian without being a Presbyterian (you can even be an independent Christian and follow no particular denomination nor attend mass on Sundays or at all and still be a believer). Or you can be a Buddhist, a Muslim, a Pagan, and so on and so forth. Your parent's religion and no religion at all are not the only choices, as I'm sure you know.

Anyways, considering your folks seem to take this dogmatic view so seriously, I'd at least wait until you are over 18, with your own home and income system before you tell then anything, if at all possible.

* at his mother request, no less. Quite the Holy Family, huh?

** bleh

15:17 / 07.01.08

Very true, Boboss. Very true.

Breefield, you can throw a post in the Barbelith Pager to bring more attention to your thread if you like.

15:55 / 07.01.08

At Defunto Megatrão
I just don't belive in god, I wasn't trying to say anything about what I believe in that department, I really have no belief whatsoever. I won't base my morals and beliefs on the bible, I'll base them on what I think is right and wrong.

At Evil Scientist on the wagon.
I would never attack their belief, in the same way I don't want them to attack my lack of said belief.

At archabyss
I have talked with one of my close friends about this matter, he suggested the same thing, he's quite one of those people who base their power in preset rules and regulations, president of several school organizations and whatnot. He said I should use scripture against them, but I can't help but feel as though I'd be taking bits and pieces out of context and not using them as they were meant to be used.
I think I need to split this up into two pieces.
A.) How to get my parents to listen to me rationally.
B.) How to let them know I don't believe what they believe without them overreacing.

Boboss
Thank you so much, that was very enlightening. I often feel as though my parents don't listen to me properly because they just think I'm "rebelling" and am a stereotypical teenager, that hurts, because I feel as though the decision I made was based on logic, and they throw that to the wind, because their personal opinion conflicts.

To all of you
Thank so much for all the insight and intelligent discussion, I really appreciate this, it's the most adult conversation I've ever had on the internet, Barbelith is quite the place.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

17:19 / 07.01.08

do you really feel that there is no god or divine, or is it more that you don't think the Christian beliefs as they've been presented to you fit with your beliefs.

If you need to figure out what this whole "god" idea is about to define it for yourself, well, that's what life is about. It's normal to want to figure "it" out (define "it" as you will).

Is it possible for you to speak to your parents in such a way that they would support your efforts to explore the world of belief, or do you think they would resist the idea?

You may want to think of things in the longer term (if you're anything like me at 15, I promise you, it's possible). Bring up the subject gently, let your parents rant. then drop it. Let them have the last word.

bring it up months later, gently, let your parents rant.

bring it up a year later, etc...

this is how I managed to eventually get around to talking to my parents about all the sensitive belief-related subjects that we'd all been avoiding. It's taken a long time, and there's still a ways to go, but it's moving in the right direction.

It felt like a rhythm of bringing up the subject, they'd get defensive and unreasonable, I'd let it go, things would calm down, and then we could talk reason (mostly when my folks were confident I wasn't attacking them personally).

some lesson about patience, good intentions, and perseverence in there, but alas, I don't have the poetry in me at the moment to give you a pity word-bite.

best of fortune

17:36 / 07.01.08

Or, y'know, you could just keep your yap shut and suck it up until you move away from home.

You know. Like everybody else does.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

17:45 / 07.01.08

why does sucking it up strike you as healthy?

18:39 / 07.01.08

It doesn't, particularly. Moving out of your parents' house, when the time comes, strikes me as healthy. It's how you spend the intervening time that's important.

And frankly, if I'm wounded, I reckon my time on the way to the hospital is best spent gritting my teeth and trying to keep matters from getting any worse until such time as I can get myself stitched, rather than in trying to convince anybody else of the validity of my pain.

Trying to change people is a waste of time. Shift the focus to changing the situation, is my suggestion.

nyarlathotep's shoe horn

18:45 / 07.01.08

"Or, y'know, you could just keep your yap shut and suck it up until you move away from home."

I got this advice, and it's about as useless as telling people not to exhale.

no thanks.

19:31 / 07.01.08

Breefield:
"I think I need to split this up into two pieces.
A.) How to get my parents to listen to me rationally.
B.) How to let them know I don't believe what they believe without them overreacing."

A.) You can't force them to side with you, especially when they're basing their actions off a religious culture that they believe in, as genuinely as you believe in atheism. If you want to convince them that you are responsible, then behave that way. Be consistently responsible and follow their rules even while you disagree with them; otherwise you'll come off as a rebellious teenager and that won't get you what you want.

And drop the 'gay' comments, they make you sound ignorant.

B.) If they're conservative Christians, there is likely no way in which you can profess atheism that will not provoke an "overreaction". (Although, since you seem very set on telling them for whatever reason, and they're Presbyterians, you could remind them that you're still hopefully a member of the Elect and they have nothing to worry about.)

19:53 / 07.01.08

And frankly, if I'm wounded, I reckon my time on the way to the hospital is best spent gritting my teeth and trying to keep matters from getting any worse until such time as I can get myself stitched, rather than in trying to convince anybody else of the validity of my pain.

And what if the person sat next to you keeps poking you in the wound? Grit then, or think about getting them to stop?

19:57 / 07.01.08

HANDS OFF MY METAPHOR YOU

20:30 / 07.01.08

Well, your capital demands notwithstanding, what if your situation is being made worse? What if waiting and bearing it stoically will allow it to worsen?

What then?

20:39 / 07.01.08

Well, "change the situation" still applies there.

But talking to the people near you IS a way of changing the situation, so that doesn't contradict either side of the argument, really.

Regardless, it's an over-generalization to say that sucking it up and not telling one's parents is what everyone else does. I think it takes a great deal of courage to stand up to one's own parents and say, calmly, "I see and understand your position, but it is not my position."

This, as opposed to losing one's temper and ranting, throwing out little snide remarks and cryptic hints, deliberately hiding evidence where they might find it, or other little attention-getting bits of behavior that are largely beside the point of whatever the subject itself happens to be.

Nevertheless, discretion is often the better part of valour.

--Ember--

20:40 / 07.01.08

And drop the 'gay' comments, they make you sound ignorant.
I put a request in to have that changed, thanks for unignoranting me

I don't want them to believe what I believe, I want them to accept what I believe. Possibly taking that into account when I ask for privileges.

Meh, I should buck up and get over it, they're always going to be like this. Me professing my disbelief will do nothing to help it seems. Whereas not doing anything promotes the same lack of change.
I suppose there's no one that can answer this one for me, It's not really a question a guess. Seeing as there's no proper answer.

01:32 / 08.01.08

(Upon review, I can confirm that I am an old fart who is out of touch with teh kids. Yeesh, I'm red-cheeked.)

It's not really a question a guess. Seeing as there's no proper answer.

Answers we're not so hot on. Advice, suggestions, and support? That we can do.