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iamus
13:58 / 03.01.08
(and the current login system would have no protection against spambots, btw, so that would possibly need some tinkering)

That's the one major problem that struck me yesterday. I know fuck all about intertron software, so I have no idea if the fact that Barbelith's code's unique makes it any less susceptible than off-the-shelf board or wiki software.

As far as I can surmise though, I can't see any other way in which Tom might have problems reimplementing the old registration code. It's not as if the old place has evolved much of any since it was closed, apart from a recently updated threads button and a handful of mod powers.


So I'm going to repeat myself again here and say that it's utterly insane that Tom is not prepared to allow this to happen and is instead prepared to see the place collapse, when it seems that the majority of people who actually still post to the fucking thing to try and keep it alive would be willing to give it a crack.

I'm a hair's breadth from suggesting we put together a petition of names and use it to spam the man's blog (and it would seem then that a hair's breadth isn't much) which still seems to be updated regularly. I'm very thankful to Tom, for setting the site up in the first place and letting me in and the like, but there's certain responsibilites here, and the sooner he sorts it out I imagine the happier everyone including himself is going to be.

We can't force people to be impressed by you, or by anyone else who posts to Barbelith. As you found, if somebody is rude and other people don't think it's justified, they will take them up on it. That's the only protection one can offer, really.

I really, honestly think that if we had a more regular influx of members this would cease to be as much of a problem. As more and more people leave, Barbelith's voice gets more and more monotone, and new members fell on the spot a lot more. One of the things that made it easier when I started was that there were tons of people all vying for attention and talking over each other. For every person that was against, there was another for. I would really hate to be a new member now.


As far as we know, we can ban, although the process is a bit farcical, and the only person we've tried it on is prone to lengthy absences anyway. But as far as we know, banning is possible, yes.

Does anyone still have keys to old suits left over from the multiple suit days. I know you had that huggle one, Haus, which you retired a while ago so I don't know if it's still accesible but one of them might be an idea to check that banning really, definitely does work. As for the process of going through it, I reckon it's likely it'll sort itself out when the need for it to do so becomes essential, as opposed to as it stands now.


I would also be willing to put on elf ears if you need me to.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:04 / 03.01.08
The multiple suit ban has been suggested before, but the ban includes a blacklisting of the IP address, to prevent a banee from just signing right up again. If haus or anyone else were to allow their second suit to be banned, they may well also lose access via their primary.

Haus: if you need volunteers, consider me elfed.
 
 
iamus
14:08 / 03.01.08
Aha. Okay.
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:31 / 03.01.08
As far as we know though, the ban system should work. I would assume that Cal did a trial ban as part of the setup.

I think opening the gates (even if it's only just a crack) is also the only way forward. I mean, yes, we're not sure that the site could withstand a flood of trolls. But left as it is, the membership will dwindle to a point where the concept of trolling will lose all relevance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:38 / 03.01.08
I'm very thankful to Tom, for setting the site up in the first place and letting me in and the like, but there's certain responsibilites here

No there aren't, really. He's paying for the place to be hosted. That's already more than anyone else is doing. We choose to be here. Please don't spam him. If you do, I think you will probably be banned from Barbelith, which would rather defeat the object, apart from anything else.

Anyway, regardless of how easy or hard it would be to reactivate the old registration system (which, as I already said, has no captcha or other protection, so would probably need to be adjusted anyway), or to institute one-person banning, every current indication suggests that, and please forgive my boldness but this is about the eight thousandth time I have said it in this thread, much less elsewhere, there will be no guarantee of any alteration to Barbelith's code and functionality, no matter how simple it might seem to the outsider. Further, if alterations are made to the code, they will not necessarily be the alterations that have been requested, or to a timescale reflecting the perceived urgency of the need. Finally, the Barbelith code will not be made available for alteration by any third party.

That is, there is no point in saying "well, I think it should be really easy to do x", where x is a technical solution involving a change to the code of Barbelith. It may well be true. It does not mean it will be done.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:18 / 03.01.08
I agree with Randy, above, and would say that the best solution to all the problems stated above would be to start a new board, perhaps organised from here to preserve the aspects and members from barbelith that still keep us coming back.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:29 / 03.01.08
In the meantime, if nothing else changes I'll see about getting some people in over the weekend - there's a risk that they will be shot out again, but nothing ventured...
 
 
Feverfew
17:17 / 03.01.08
As far as elfing goes, while I'm not sure about the ears, I'm happy about the hats, and would happily help out if I could.
 
 
iamus
17:25 / 03.01.08
So nobody donates any more, and the burden of the bills is entirely on his shoulders? If that's the case, then fair enough. If there's still money going through to him (and even if there is, I understand it's likely he bears the brunt of it) then that would mean that there is a level of responsibility there.

Money's not necessarily the only factor I'd take into account though. Over the years there's been a vast investment of time and emotion on the parts of many posters (not least yourself, Haus. Something which has been recognised on more than one occasion by Tom himself) in keeping the place up and running and hanging together, where Tom has been absent. It's not legally binding by any means, and it's very subjective, but iI would think there's an ethical issue there. He may pay the bills, but in effect, the place hasn't been run by him in a looooong time. For that fact to be simply written off is, in my opinion, missing the point a little and would be crass of him.

I'm not going to spam his blog, but I think that we are deserving of a definitive answer and really, if we have to go out of the way a little to get it, I think it should be done. If you elect to build somewhere, take charge of it and invite others to become a part of it then there are certain responsibilities that are inherent in that, regardless of other factors. That's judged solely on how I would expect myself to behave in such a circumstance.

However, while I think that while that is what should happen, obviously (it's been stated many times by many people over a good while) that's no indicator that's what will. So I also echo the idea of opening up a new board, with off-the-shelf software if need be (whatever happened to Paleface's Barbelith 2.0? Did that halt with the minor changes made when Cal came back?). I'd go for a whole new start, new name, everything.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:19 / 03.01.08
If there's still money going through to him (and even if there is, I understand it's likely he bears the brunt of it) then that would mean that there is a level of responsibility there.

See, there's history here. I seem to remember (and I could well remember wrong, so if anyone remembers otherwise please correct me) that when donations first started happening Tom was pretty adamant that this wasn't a "subscription". It was mooted that those who donated should maybe get privileges- Tom didn't like that (and to be honest, neither did most of the rest of us). He didn't want those who donated to have less rights than those who did. And conversely that must also mean that those who donate should have no more rights than those who don't.

As I recall, the deal was always that those who donate do so because they want to donate. Nothing more, nothing less. If they wish to stop donating, they are also free to do so.

iamus, I get what you're saying- fuck, I'm as frustrated at the way the board is now as anyone- but basically Tom has let us have a party at his house. If he wants to go to sleep and hopes we keep the noise down, then that's fair enough. If he wants to go to the shops and let us carry on partying, then that's also fair enough. As would it be if he decided to just kick us out en masse. But I don't think he actually has any "responsibility" towards us.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:20 / 03.01.08
I don't think it's worth getting into a discussion of the ethics of online communities here, and specifically the duty people have to maintain things online that one likes. I'm pretty livid with thinksecret.com right now myself. However, when you say:

I'm not going to spam his blog, but I think that we are deserving of a definitive answer and really, if we have to go out of the way a little to get it, I think it should be done.

First up, how far out of the way do you feel entitled by your status as someone who has hung out on his server space interacting with people using his technology to go, and an answer to what, exactly, are you seeking? The question of whether Tom is going to reactivate open admissions? You already have one, I think:

There will be no guarantee of any alteration to Barbelith's code and functionality, no matter how simple it might seem to the outsider. Further, if alterations are made to the code, they will not necessarily be the alterations that have been requested, or to a timescale reflecting the perceived urgency of the need. Finally, the Barbelith code will not be made available for alteration by any third party.

If you want, why not email him? However, the first of the three statements will still apply.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:34 / 03.01.08
Oh, interpost. Yes, Stoatie is right, pretty much. Tom's an absent landlord, essentially, which is frustrating because broken fixtures can't be repaired, but since we're only paying rent on a voluntary basis if we feel like it, that's not totally reprehensible.

There's a discussion in Temple at the moment about what a successor magic board might look like - it might be worth looking at that.
 
 
iamus
18:43 / 03.01.08
You're both on the money I suppose.

Since nobody seems to be happy with the current state of things, getting serious about moving the party elsewhere seems to be the general tone, then. That's how Gypsy seems to be feeling in the Temple at the moment. Maybe it's time for the place to divide and multiply. What did happen to Paleface?

I may well e-mail Tom. It'd be good to try and at least get a proper opinion on the furthering or the closure of the place, regardless of whether anything is owed or not (though there may be more to it, I think you're both largely correct and it'd be unhelpful to start up on it).
 
 
iamus
18:43 / 03.01.08
Crosspost there too.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:09 / 03.01.08
See, what makes it difficult to kick off about is that Tom's a genuinely decent chap. I've long suspected that the real reason that he's unwilling to move towards providing a small set of (other) people with ultimate power is because he's still hanging onto his ideal of a board where every member has equal power and equal say in all matters of policy and execution of policy, and giving one person the keys to the baninator is almost the exact opposite of that. And I wonder if he's still got some vague belief that he'll get around to making this the board that he wanted it to be.

But I've also long suspected that Tom's vision for Barbelith was and is completely unworkable - a lovely idea, but a totally unrealistic proposition. And I think everybody knows that he's never going to have the time to do *anything* further with Barbelith.

It's funny and a bit sad. By refusing to give way to the (vocal) majority opinion, he's ended up destroying that vision for the board. Not only is power ultimately held in a single pair of hands, it's held by somebody who's never here. You couldn't get any further from a full distribution of power if you tried.

I wouldn't be surprised if Paleface lost interest when everybody suddenly forgot about his project when they allowed themselves to be blinded by the promise of a properly-functioning version of the current board. I dunno. I'd certainly have taken it as a bit of a fuck-you, but then I'm not Paleface.
 
 
grant
19:14 / 03.01.08
I just figured he'd update when ready.

Paleface, I mean.
 
 
Tsuga
21:31 / 03.01.08
I had assumed the same about The Strobe (née Paleface, née Olmos), though I've not seen many, if any, posts by 'em lately.
Tom is very decent to allow us this space, but I do hope he does something at some point here(besides shut the party down and board the place up).
 
 
Triplets
22:19 / 03.01.08
I'd certainly have taken it as a bit of a fuck-you, but then I'm not Paleface.

Yeah. I felt that at the time and still feel a bit guilty that (if I recall) that I didn't chip in to say that his idea was still really interesting and needed to be developed further, new features or not. To be honest I was very... ahem... curious about the timing of Tom's changes, coming in on the heels of Paleface's Barbelith 2 as they did.

By refusing to give way to the (vocal) majority opinion, he's ended up destroying that vision for the board. Not only is power ultimately held in a single pair of hands, it's held by somebody who's never here.

It's a bit damning, put like that, innit. But pretty much spot on.
 
 
stabbystabby
10:54 / 04.01.08
just a personal note - i joined a year or so ago - i'd been an avid reader for quite a while and was very excited to become a member. once i joined though, i found that i didn't know enough of the in-jokes to take part, most of my posts didn't draw a response except the occasional snarky reference to a thread that ended 3 years previous.

don't get me wrong, i love barbelith, i love its principles and the level of conversation. i just got bored and disappointed when i realised i was never gonna be a part of it, and stopped posting.
 
 
bacon
11:40 / 04.01.08
when did you stop posting? just then?
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:46 / 04.01.08
Hi there, knife at a gun fight. Have you thought about how your attitude contributes to the dynamic of your interaction with the board? I think you joined a month, maybe two, after I did, but I don't have the same experience at all.

I can certainly remember feeling that I was threadkilla due to the lack of response to posts I'd tried really hard to make interesting and clear; I guess I just decided not to let it bother me, and to keep practicing. I began to use Barbelith as a way of offering stuff I wanted to talk about and being unbothered when others didn't agree. I guess it didn't come across as snarky when people pointed out old threads to me that I might like to use as background or starting point.

I guess the injokes didn't really get to me either. I asked about some of them, I looked others up on the FAQ, I just ignored others. Maybe as well I've made more time available for my learning here than you've been able to.

I'll agree that it's not easy to join in with a discussion that aims at a high standard. Yes, it requires effort and learning. I want to give challenge to the idea that it's impossible for you ever to join in if you want to. Even if you have made your decisions, I want to encourage other lurking or underconfident posters.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
12:10 / 04.01.08
I'll echo that; I know that it took me something over a year to find my voice here and make some worthwhile connections, but I'm very glad I did. The shrinking of the board may have made a little easier to stand out, but there's no science to these matters. It's just a shame knife didn't have a positive experience.

The era of frothy in-jokes and community may have passed for many, and I'd agree that the board hasn't the same feel it did when I started to lurk in 2004, but there's still plenty going on here. The Feminism 101 discussions from a year or so ago, and the associated fallout period during which a lot of self-examination and shedding of old attitudes went on, was a real watershed and one I found very valuable. Looking back I see it contributed to my determination to talk about my favourite otaku-related topics without bringing to the board the nastier baggage - endemic use of sexist, racist and homophobic language and the ingrained views that go with them - which I've found elsewhere in fan communities.

On the subject of newer posters being or feeling undervalued, I can think of half a dozen right off the top of my head who I'd nominate as an essential part of today's 'Lith, all of whom joined long after I did and who probably experienced just the same uncertainties as everyone else before finding their feet. So there's always hope for improvement.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:35 / 04.01.08
Um, I think it's more about how conscious you feel as a new member yourself than it is how other members feel about you. As in, you presume that you're causing thread-death, or that people can't be bothered to reply to you or haven't found your post interesting enough to reply to, whereas it's just that sometimes, posts don't generate replies. Sometimes, threads run out of steam. It's not happening because of you.

(Aside: In-jokes are always shit, as far as I'm concerned. Any decent forum joke will have been wrung dry by the end of a week, at most. I'm aware that I'm in the minority as far as that opinion goes, though.)
 
 
Make me Uncomfortable
05:11 / 05.01.08
I too joined pretty recently- within the past year. I had been doing research on some esoteric magical concept, and got a LOT of use out of a few different threads in Temple, most of which had last been really active around 2004, and wanted to add to them, maybe bring them back.

Once I joined and posted... it didn't really work.

True, I've felt for a while that my posts just aren't up to snuff, but I've also been frustrated with how the board seems in real time as opposed to the liveliness and richness of it that I perceived in the older parts of various threads...

I have yet to post on the Temple thread re: new place, but I will certainly post here:

There's a lot of good in Barbelith, and I don't want it to die. But it's a little ghosty around here, and too quiet for the mayhem in my mind.

But action is action, and business is business.
 
 
stabbystabby
07:29 / 05.01.08
Bacon: about 8 months ago. I pop back once a month, this is the first time i've posted in at least 6 months (from memory).
 
 
bacon
10:59 / 05.01.08
evidence suggests this is your second post in two days
 
 
Tsuga
11:12 / 05.01.08
Yes, well. Zing, there, wasn't it.
 
 
stabbystabby
11:14 / 05.01.08
touche.

oops.
 
 
bannable1
18:45 / 12.01.08


Who's laughing now?
 
 
bannable1
18:45 / 12.01.08
JUST DO IT!!!
 
 
Tsuga
19:22 / 12.01.08
Time for someone to start a banning thread, right? I find the previous post egregiously offensive. We'll have to toil over all three posts, but I think it can be resolved without tearing the board apart. But if it does, so be it.
 
  

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