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More female poets please

 
  

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Cavatina
20:34 / 18.08.01
Thanks for that, Passer; I've just visited the sight. I also read in the TLS this week that Sappho was the first to use the epithalamium as a literary form.
 
 
Cavatina
20:37 / 18.08.01
Whoops, 'site'.
 
 
Ellis
20:40 / 18.08.01
Cavatina, do u know how to edit a post? Simply click on the page/ pencil icon and you are able to edit that post, as long as it is yours of course.
 
 
Cavatina
20:45 / 18.08.01
Ta. (Sorry Tom).
 
 
deletia
06:44 / 21.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Cavatina:
Thanks for that, Passer; I've just visited the sight. I also read in the TLS this week that Sappho was the first to use the epithalamium as a literary form.


I'm with passer on "your beloved", FWIW.

Cavatina - the above is a curious statement. Assuming for a moment that we understand the same by "epithalamium" and "literary form", what does the writer mean?
 
 
Cavatina
06:58 / 21.08.01
The TLS writer is Hugo Williams; he uses it to mean 'a poem written to be sung outside the bridal chamber on the wedding night, to encourage fertility'. He continues:

Sappho was the first to use it as a literary form, although something similar does appear in the Iliad
 
 
deletia
07:32 / 21.08.01
Yes, well, what we have to remember here is that Hugo Williams is a dribbling old fool, a social incontinent whose best poetic efforts feature a) everybody who has had sex the night before having a red light over their head and b) fantasising about a young women pissing on his face as she uses a British Rail toilet. His tiresome obsession with younger women (excused at least in part by the scarcity of *older* ones) is matched only by the awe-inspiring self-indulgence of his writing.

All of which is utterly irrelevant to the question at hand, but is probably worth saying. Hey, he just really irritates me. Although I would humbly suggest that the case for the "literary" status of Sappho's epithalamia is not entirely watertight.

But this is not relevant to the inquiry - female poets (and correct me if I'm wrong, opalfruit, but wasn't Semonides a man, man?). Has anyone suggested Kathy Acker? I'm not sure if she counts as a poet, strictly speaking, but...
 
 
Opalfruit
07:32 / 21.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:


But this is not relevant to the inquiry - female poets (and correct me if I'm wrong, opalfruit, but wasn't Semonides a man, man?).


Yep. He's probably the Greek Poet you should read if you really want a 'brief' idea of how the Ancient Greeks used to look on women... although if you look at their literature it's a really confused... which makes Saphos writing even the more remarkable.


Oh. on an another slightly related note Liz Lockhead's adaption of Medea is on at the Library Theatre (Manchester) in Septemeber.
 
 
deletia
10:10 / 21.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:
[threadrot]Although I'm chary of the term "Ancient Greek" - if you mean pre-Classical, possibly so, but even then there are depictions of male-female relationships in Homer which show rather more (mutual) respect. If we just mean "Ancient Greek-speaking", then the happy marriage in Aristotle's Oeconomicus might be taken into account...

Which is to say, I'm not sure we can pont at something and say - "all right, it's a bit more complex than this, but this is basically the Ancient Greek view of women" - especially as that suggests that the view was held also *by* women.

Also, although my early Greek poetry is a bit rusty, is the Catalogue of Women not a sympotic work? ie one to be recited at a wine-drinking party at which the only women would be hetairai, and there would probably be a fair dollop of homosociality? And does that not have implications for the type of subject matter put on. When Flyboy's pissed he starts singing Eminem lyrics, but I'm not sure he'd like that to be taken as his gender philosophy entier...
[/threadrot]
 
 
Cavatina
11:02 / 21.08.01
Haus, I suspect Williams took his definition from M. H. Abrams Glossary of Literary Terms. Abrams writes that the epithalamion is 'a poem written to celebrate a marriage; among its classical practitioners were Soppho, Theocritus, Ovid, and Catullus. The name in Greek means "at the bridal chamber," for the verses were originally written to be sung outside the bedroom of the newly married couple.'

Incidentally, the only example I found on the site recommended to me by Passer is the following:

Bridesmaids' Carol I

O Bride brimful of
rosy little loves!

O brightest jewel of
the Queen of Paphos!

Come now
to your
bedroom to your
bed
and play there
gently sweetly
with your bridegroom

And may Hesperus
lead you not at all
unwilling
until
you stand wondering
before the silver

Throne of Hera
Queen of Marriage
 
 
deletia
11:16 / 21.08.01
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cavatina:
The name in Greek means "at the bridal chamber," for the verses were originally written to be sung outside the bedroom of the newly married couple.'

I know. Sappho and the groom's big feet. etc.

My issue is not with Williams' definition. I just don't like him.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:18 / 21.08.01
Heh heh heh. Love it when it gets personal.
But I know what you mean, Haus: although maybe five or six of Hugo's poems deserve to be saved in the event of a fire at the British Library, when he's just coasting both you and I can outwrite him without even breaking sweat. Although I'm sure he's still doing work in the community, furthering the careers of nubile young female poets at the U E of A.
 
 
YNH
17:13 / 21.08.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Jericho:
Has anyone suggested Kathy Acker? I'm not sure if she counts as a poet, strictly speaking, but...


Nope, but now that you have... Is she "poetic" enough to be in this category?
 
 
Ria
18:55 / 21.08.01
I don't read poetry as a rule but I love Joolz's.
 
 
Cavatina
14:15 / 22.08.01
The problem is not so much that 'a lot of female poets are crap' as that their oeuvre or number of successful poems is small. I can think of several individual poems by women which I think worthwhile, Donna McSkimming's Ululation for a Red Headed Woman, for example. The first couple of stanzas of this I can actually remember:

if you kiss a red head lick her ears & you'll
hear crimson semitones; the sacred fires lit
& attracting revellers to some dark hill
& dancing, dancing till you fall exhausted
against the old tree shivers/remembers bonfires.

or

if you kiss a redhead stroke her hair
like silk snapping electric, static,
imbedding spark on spark, till the future
detonates along the ley lines of your palms.

I also like Edith Speers'

Why I Like Men

mainly i like men because they're different
they're the opposite sex
no matter how much you pretend they're ordinary
human beings you don't really believe it

they have a whole different language and geography
so they're almost as good
as a trip overseas when life gets dull
and you start looking for a thrill

next i like men because they're all so different
one from another
and unpredictable so you can never really know
what will happen from
looks alone

like anyone else i have my own taste with regard
to size and shape and color
but the kind of style that has nothing to do
with money can make you bet
on an outsider

lastly i guess i like men because they are the other
half of the human race
and you've got to start somewhere
learning to live and let live
with stangers

maybe it's because if you can leave your options open
ready to consider love
with such an out and out foreigner
it makes other people seem
so much easier
 
  

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