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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Can u Camus?

  
 
wembley can change in 28 days
13:09 / 30.07.01
I just finished reading Camus' Caligula, mostly because a friend of mine is hell-bent on staging it sometime this year. Has anyone else read it? lots of other Camus? any thoughts? thoughts on the problems/interest in literature/plays that are hugely philosophical in text, animal in subtext, and generally nasty?

It's not exactly the same as the movie; no-one in the book actually says "Dance, Little Boots!" in the caladarium.
 
 
Ellis
13:18 / 30.07.01
I love Camus.

I've read The Outsider (about a man who refuses to lie) and The Plague (about... a plague) and both really are terrfic, dealing with the absurdity and meaninglessness of life.
 
 
ephemerat
14:10 / 30.07.01
Absolutely. Camus is stunning.

I’ve read The Outsider, The Fall, The Plague, The Myth of Sisyphus and A Happy Death and all of them are highly recommended.

quote:There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest--whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories--comes afterward. These are games; one must first answer.
 
 
z3r0
16:13 / 30.07.01
Posted by Ellis: quote: I've read The Outsider (about a man who refuses to lie)
Is it? How come, I didn't see it this way...
Is this the one I'm thinking ("O Estrangeiro", in Portuguese.) Where the guy kills the arab at the beach?
 
 
priya narma
16:25 / 30.07.01
z3r0 : the outsider is a different book.

O Estrangeiro = The Stranger
lots of light, mersault kills an arab, robert smith writes a song about it....
 
 
Liloudini
17:00 / 30.07.01
quote:zero: the outsider is a different book.
The outsider = The stranger= O estrangeiro
 
 
priya narma
17:38 / 30.07.01
quote: originally posted by liloudini: The outsider = The stranger= O estrangeiro

i stand humble and corrected. and along with z3ro, i am now thoroughly confused.

quote: Ellis wrote: I've read The Outsider (about a man who refuses to lie)

please help educate this victim of the hawaii educational system ...where does the "refusing to lie" bit come into play in the Stranger/the Outsider/O estrangeiro/what have you?
 
 
Ellis
18:20 / 30.07.01
quote:Originally posted by ari:


please help educate this victim of the hawaii educational system ...where does the "refusing to lie" bit come into play in the Stranger/the Outsider/O estrangeiro/what have you?

Well Camus mentions it in the afterword.

The main character, whose name I can't spell, refuses to lie, he doesn't fake it, he doesn't conform to society, he refuses to satisfy the feelings of others by pretending grief at the death of his mom, regret over the killing of the Arab (instead he says that he feels more annoyed).

He refuses to hide his feelings and so society feels threatened.

Camus likens his character to "the only Christ that we deserve" someone who agrees to die for the truth, even though it is a negative one.
 
 
Kobol Strom
20:35 / 30.07.01
The Outsider is a classic.My vote is cast.As far as it goes,-'tis a good un.No less.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
22:23 / 30.07.01
Well, it looks like we've established that Camus is all right, and that The Outsider is at least worth its salt. But say you had to do anything with that kind of character, that kind of morality, that kind of intellectual grandeur. I don't particularly care what kind of creative impulse comes of it, but I'm more interested in the offshoots and analysis of such characters.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
08:18 / 31.07.01
Hmm. Been a while since I read any Camus, but I do have to agree that The Outsider is good - though I did find that The Plague was a little better, and The Myth of Sisyphus was much harder going.

About the characters: difficult. I always thought that Mersault, in The Outsider, was riding rather close to nihilism in his outlook; he just didn't care. It could just be a dodgy association - I'm not well enough versed in modern philosophy to be able to explain the exact differences between existentialism (which Camus was, yes?) and nihilism (which I think Mersault was).

Though it must be said, that I picture characters in Camus novels as smoking languidly, quite disaffectedly. This is a purely aesthetic thing, and probably wrong, but it's a mental image I can't get rid of. Langour seems to be all over Camus' novels, for me - maybe that's something that could be parleyed into stage direction?
 
 
z3r0
13:23 / 31.07.01
By Ellis: quote: The main character, whose name I can't spell, refuses to lie, he doesn't fake it, he doesn't conform to society, he refuses to satisfy the feelings of others by pretending grief at the death of his mom, regret over the killing of the Arab (instead he says that he feels more annoyed).

Oooh, I seee...
Yes, that's right. Later Mersault gets in trouble, during the trial, because someone says that he went to the movies with his lover, in the same day his mother was buried.
Thanks, Ellis.
 
 
priya narma
13:37 / 31.07.01
yes, thank you Ellis for presenting he-who's-name-will-not-be-spelt in a whole new light! i am now on my way to becoming an educated girl.

btw-tried to send yinz a private message thank you but i don't think it worked hit the send button and was quickly shuttled to a blank grey screen...i dunno what happened.
 
 
Ellis
13:49 / 31.07.01
No troubles bubbles

Ari, I did get your message, thanks!
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
14:49 / 31.07.01
Weird: I watched Fight Club last night (watch this get moved to the film section), and Brad Pitt's version of Tyler struck me as heavily... er... Camuvian. In a people-friendly sort of way, though. Absolute and total freedom of the will, but no killing, seemed to be the rule. Which in some ways helps the characters to appear a little more "human like us" or attractive, keeping them within the realm of the good guys, but in other ways is a pretty half-assed way to do it.

quote:Though it must be said, that I picture characters in Camus novels as smoking languidly, quite disaffectedly. This is a purely aesthetic thing, and probably wrong, but it's a mental image I can't get rid of. Langour seems to be all over Camus' novels, for me - maybe that's something that could be parleyed into stage direction?

I always got that sense from L'Etranger, that there was a dreadful calm about the characters. Caligula, maybe because it's written for the stage, is considerably more frenetic, including stage directions of people on their knees crying to the gods. Ahem. And now I'm imagining Fight Club with langour as opposed to hallucinatory rollercoaster... because, well, because everything I think about today is filtered through that movie. It would be fun to MTV-ify L'Etranger and see what you get out of it.

Bloody cool movie, though. I was highly jealous.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: wembley ]
 
 
Ellis
17:53 / 31.07.01
Ari, z3r0-

Do you think that knowing the author's perspective heightens your enjoyment/ appreciation of the book?

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Ellis ]
 
 
z3r0
11:43 / 01.08.01
Ellis:
Well, I think it adds another perspective. If you read a book, you finish it thinking about it in a certain way. If later you see, in an interview, for instance, the author's own perpectives and intentions and they are not the same as yours, it just makes the experience richer. Another node from where you can re-read it.
As ol' Doctor Manhattan would say: "The delights of uncertainty, the joy of not-knowing..."
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:29 / 01.08.01
quote:Originally posted by z3r0:
Later Mersault gets in trouble, during the trial, because someone says that he went to the movies with his lover, in the same day his mother was buried.


I thought the idea was it was seen as more important that he hadn't cried at his mothers funeral than the fact he'd killed a guy and confessed that he'd done it.
 
 
priya narma
01:53 / 02.08.01
Ellis: i always try to avoid reading anything about a novel before i read it. i like to just kick back and let my mind try to work things out on its own. then, after everything has been processed and filed away i go back and read the forewards, afterwards, interviews, reviews, etc. most of the time i find that i completely missed the authors point, even if i did enjoy the book a great deal. it doesn't bother me much as it gives me a reason to go back and reread from a different perspective. i am an obsessive rereader so the formula has worked out well for me. in the case of the stranger (read my junior year in hs then once every 2-3 years afterward), i got really hung up on the light and heat references and how i felt meursault seemed emotionally disconnected (emotional stranger) from the major events in his life and yet hypersensitive to external stimuli (it's the light and heat thing again...i dunno...hard day at work, it's late and i've ingested way too many cape cods ). i also really pinged off of his nonreaction to the murder and his mother's death. i even reread the book once from a science fiction standpoint with meursault as an alien, a complete 'stranger' to himself and everything surrounding him (in my head it explained his character really well). i think i may have an overactive imagination at times...and like i said, i usually miss the real point behind the words. BUT, everything in this thread has reminded me that it's time for a fifth go around. i have high hopes that this time my mind won't stray too far from the authors true meaning...hehehe

and wembley: fight club was such a treat! i totally hated it the first time i saw it... up until i got hit dead in the face with the disassociative-thang. after that, i had to buy the dvd and i always manage to make it through the ikea-generation x-american psycho-product naming game (which really pissed me off at first) with a smile.

and as for the mtv aspect...it's got fincher all over it. i seriously dig every film that guy has made, i mean he is so totally, um, slick (i really hate that word, now that i think about it) with his camera direction. i even like what he did with alien 3 (yes, i'll admit it). a fincher directed stranger would prolly be great fun to watch although i wonder if there would be a big clash between the languid storyline and his fast style...?
 
 
Ellis
20:15 / 06.08.01
Rothkoid
I didnt think that M. was a nihilist, more of an Existentialist in sense that at the end of the novel I think he comes to terms with the absurdity of his predicament and realises that it is beyond his control and so does not worry about them.

I consider M. also, to be an amoralist and perhaps an individualist as he is concerned first with himself and not others which immediately against society as (like Reardon from Atlas Shrugged, which I also read recently) he won't change and give in for them.

I think he may be unlikable. I find myself indifferent to the character as he offers no explanation of his actions, he doesn't judge others except in sensual matters- he doesn't like it if it is hot or uncomfortable, he doesn't say why he does the "bad" things that he does like help the pimp. (Although I don't think he considers his actions wrong or else he would not do them).


If you want to read more about Existentialism read "Existentialism and Humanism" by Sartre, its a tiny book and easy to read.

Existentialism in a nutshell
Existence precedes essence- we create ourselves, there is no human nature but there is a human condition to look to the future and imagine different possibilities.
No morality- there is no objective pre-established morality, we create our own morality by the choices we make. Man is what he wills.
Choice- everything is a choice, a choice for one is a choice for all-man cannot pass beyond human subjectivity, an action is good because it is chosen it is NOT chosen because it is good. Because there is no pre-established morality we have no code to fall back on, no one can help us, we are responsible for ourselves and our actions, no one else is.
Anguish: Man is always in anguish knowing that he is responsible for his actions and through his actions he shapes not only himself but all of humanity.
Abandonment: God does not exist, we are alone in the universe, there is no good a priori since there is no perfect and infinite consciousness to think it. Everything is permitted, man is without excuse for his actions, there are no God given values to justify our behaviour. You can’t explain your actions away by God or human nature. We are condemned to be free.
Despair: “Beyond the point where the possibilities under consideration cease to affect my action I ought to disinterest myself” So we should act without hope, because the universe won’t bend to our will, and there is no God to make everything better so… just… let… go…

Ari
I always consider the authors "verdict" his work to be the final word and on the matter which is why I find it is best to avoid them if you can (it can be quite disheartening when you find out that you have the meaning of the book all wrong- its like knowing the lyrics to an REM song...) But at the sdame time I enjoy reading of other peoples impressions of the work- with each new expression a new layer is added to the work and makes the work richer and more enjoyable.
Sometimes knowing the artists own verdict can damage the the work by taking away the subjectivity and the life or personal experiences a reader brings to work.

[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: Ellis ]
 
 
Ellis
18:36 / 16.08.01
Thread Resurection

Has anyone noticed the theme of being condemned to death is previlent in both The Outsider and The Plague? I wonder why Camus uses this as a reference point, in both novels the characters face up to death knowing they can't avert it, the people of Oran act heroically in the face of death by carrying on as normal, not refusing to be beat, to lay down and die- being written after the Nazi occupation of France adds another layer to this story.

Tarrou and Rieux, I have read that their relationship is a homosexual one, shown by their swimming together, but I never picked up on that.

I read The First Man a few days ago, an novel unfinished at Camus' death it was found in the car he crashed and died in, his daughter said she published it because the alternative was to destroy it since it would be published eventually. A very autobiographical novel (the teacher even calls him Camus at one point) its from the POV of Jaques Cormery who is basically Camus, the novel is only about his early life which is a shame as I would have loved to read more about his time at the Lycee. There is a strangely poignent scene where he goes to visit the grave of his father who he is now older than, it really did seem absurd and sad at the same time.
Growing up without a father, he is the first man who has to find his own way in the world, shame its not finished (and some parts contradict other parts but that can be expected from a first draft) as it would have been several hundred pages longer.

This weekend I hope to read , The Myth of Sisyphus and The Rebel (which is a bunch of essays while I thought it was another novel) I am curious to what anyone else thinks of them.
 
 
gozer the destructor
10:09 / 12.04.02
Just been reading this old thread and thought I would contribute to it...I think Camus was such an amazing writer, The Fall to me is the most razor sharp disection of western social behaviour. Just like the themes he first explored in the outsider (refusing to protect other peoples moral sensibilities by being truly honest to your own) the protaganist draws us comfortably into descriptions of social scenes, that we relate to, then shows up our fragile and shallow attitudes for what they are...camus' abilty to craft prose in The Palgue and The Fall is flawless,

like all the others who are grouped in the existentialist pigeon-hole he denied ever being one, and his ideas regarding the absurd nature of all things added a new flavour to existential ideas, my favourite writer without a doubt.
 
 
COG
18:24 / 06.01.08
Just bumping this because In Our Time have just done a good program on him.

Going to have to track some down and add it to the pile to read.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:41 / 07.01.08
I'm reading La Peste now in French. Very good. 'It was a spring cried in the market-places...'
 
 
The Idol Rich
09:24 / 18.01.08
Weird: I watched Fight Club last night (watch this get moved to the film section), and Brad Pitt's version of Tyler struck me as heavily... er... Camuvian.

If you want "Camuvian" (or at least existential) films go for Monte Hellman I reckon. The Shooting, Two Lane Blacktop and Cockfighter all have a feel that is very similar to The Outsider altough for my money are more powerful (especially The Shooting which has extra weirdness added). Also Antonioni's The Passenger.
 
 
Rebellious Jukebox
17:21 / 05.04.08
This weekend I hope to read , The Myth of Sisyphus and The Rebel (which is a bunch of essays while I thought it was another novel) I am curious to what anyone else thinks of them.

I haven't yet picked up The Rebel, but I've been digesting The Myth of Sisyphus for about a month now, and I've still hardly scratched the surface - I've found it a pretty difficult read, the prose is far denser than in any of his fiction I've read (The Stranger and The Plague). It's often an inspiring work, but I just don't quite follow his logic sometimes - the joy he talks about seems to be more of a manic insanity masquerading as something more logistically sincere, and I find the various sources he cites and examines to be much more revelatory, collected as they are, than his core argument. I feel like maybe, just maybe, he's trying too hard to see what he wants to see in the absurd - but is that really such a bad thing? His efforts are commendable in any case, suicide is an infectious disease that must be stopped.

Did you actually make it through both works in a single weekend?
 
 
--
19:34 / 05.05.08
I've read two of his books, "The Stranger" and "The Fall." The former was just okay, but I really liked the latter. In fact, I cried after I read it, and I'm not sure why, though I was depressed at the time.
 
  
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