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What Use Gratitude?

 
 
*
17:35 / 08.11.07
(Starting with this in convo as a "personal experience/opinion" thread; it could develop Head Shop- or Temple-wards as it progresses)

Hydra, here, makes the offhand comment that ze doesn't think that gratitude is a useful thing to feel about anything. Ze says, to be precise: Oh, and IMO "grateful" isn't a useful emotion for anyone to feel about anything.

I expect we may have different ideas of what it means to feel "grateful". I am put in mind of something I heard a Rabbi say recently about the concept of "Dayenu." Dayenu means (more or less) "it would have been sufficient," some of the Jews and Jewish-ish people here probably know from a Passover favorite. Reb Gershon put it another way, one that's probably also familiar from elsewhere: "If he would only have cleared the table, and brought out plates, it would have been enough. If he would only have cleared the table and brought out plates but not set the table, it would have been enough. If he would only have set the table but not expressed appreciation of the meal, it would have been enough. If he had expressed appreciation of the meal but not offered to help with the dishes, it would have been enough. If he would only have offered to help with the dishes but not rinsed them and loaded them in the dishwasher, it would have been enough. And that he has rinsed them and loaded them in the dishwasher (even though he has not actually put in soap and turned the dishwasher on)... it's enough!"

I'm mindful for one thing of the Rebbe's very traditional ideas of relationships, family, and work-sharing, and it's a bit irritating to me even as I recognize that it's comforting and humorous to those listeners who are in traditional heterosexual etc etc etc. But I take his basic point... when you are grateful for the things your partner gives you, then the things that you would want from them but don't get, don't seem like huge crises. Resentment doesn't build up and eventually destroy the relationship. And that's no little thing to be grateful for.

Not just in love relationships, but professional ones or casual ones. Feeling grateful often leads to expressing appreciation, and it's well known that expressing appreciation helps to make all kinds of relationships smoother. To put it another way... imagine if the significant people in your life felt no gratitude or appreciation for all the many ways you contribute to their lives. How encouraged would you feel to maintain your side of the reciprocal relationships that keep humanity as a social organism functional?

More personally, I've found that feeling grateful helps me be happy. I'm not talking about having the attitude of "feel grateful for what you have (as opposed to all the many things you don't have, you poor sod)," I'm talking about a general attitude of gratefulness in relation to the world around me. The alternative, it seems, is continuous dissatisfaction, which I already know puts me at risk of depression. The former empowers me to do whatever I can to help make my life, and those of others, still better; the latter tends to cause me to stagnate. I'm not sure what more useful emotion than gratitude there is, actually... and that's assuming that emotions should be useful in order to be good.
 
 
HCE
19:59 / 08.11.07
I try to stay grateful for a lot of things. Grateful for kindnesses small and large, grateful for being healthy, grateful for my partners, grateful for my friends. Gratitude is a great antidote for feeling unlucky or unloved. Gratitude moves my focus from myself to others.
 
 
ibis the being
21:45 / 08.11.07
I'm confused by Hydra's original statement. Does ze mean that gratitude/gratefulness as emotion is useless, or that thanking others as an action is useless? Although I would disagree, I could probably imagine an argument for the latter, but I totally fail to see the uselessness of feeling grateful. I would have to see Hydra's point expanded upon before I could really respond to that.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:13 / 08.11.07
(Ooo I like this. It would be shiny in the Temple.)
 
 
astrojax69
06:43 / 09.11.07
i always entwine gratitude with politeness, a natural response, if you like, to the actions oif others when recognising their intervention into your life through some act [or inaction...] that is deliberately intended to be of some service or assistance to you - it is one of those truly human traits (ie when there is no biological imperative at play, so making the action merely instinct)

or have i missed something important? if i expected, even demanded, the action, i can't really be grateful, can i? but if it was an action - like serving my food when i was quite capable, etc... - where it was not an imperative, can't i then feel gratitude, esp if it is a genuine recognition of a true respite for me (i may have been feeling really tired, had a sore hand, whatever) in fact, now as i think and write (a too often occurence for me, sorry) i expect we'd feel truly grateful for someone who did us a great service without even really realising they'd done it, out of some sheer selfless act that, unbeknown to them, was deeply appreciated by me.

and i often use the phrase 'grateful for your co-operation/response/whatever' in work correspondence; and mean it. how do i mean it if 'gratitude; is an obsolete emotion?

good idea for a thread, thanks!
 
 
Quantum
07:31 / 09.11.07
I think Hydra might have been talking about situations where gratitude is expected, e.g. someone else thinking you *should* be grateful as some form of payment for what they did or something. Better for someone to do you a favour because they want to, rather than because they want to have the superior feeling of saying 'Oh really, it was nothing' when you thank them, possibly infantilising or patronising you.

At least that's what I think Hydra was getting at, but I don't know.
 
 
Tsuga
09:31 / 09.11.07
Gratitude is like a voluntary debt that you want to pay. There's nothing wrong with that, and at times it seems reasonable to expect some or enjoy some; but if it's the sole reason you are doing something, then maybe you should rethink your motives.
I'm not sure what H v. L was on about. Is it "useful"? It makes some people feel good. That's useful, I guess. As Zip says, imagine if the significant people in your life felt no gratitude or appreciation for all the many ways you contribute to their lives. How encouraged would you feel to maintain your side of the reciprocal relationships that keep humanity as a social organism functional? I don't have to imagine that for some people in my life. I'll bet many of you don't have to, either. Some people may get angry or resentful about not getting gratitude. That's not useful, unless it teaches a lesson. A bitter, bitter lesson. You can't expect everyone to be grateful, and sometimes you learn over time who's really not going to be. It's up to you if that stops you from doing things for that person out of the lack of gratitude. It does seem to perform some social function in greasing the wheels.
 
 
Quantum
10:14 / 09.11.07
I think what HvL was getting at was something like the Big Issue situation. You buy a magazine from someone, are they supposed to be grateful? On the one hand, you've helped them make an honest living, on the other, you don't expect your newsagent to be grateful, do you? Or if (as often happens) you tip the vendor but don't take a magazine, should they be teary-eyed with gratitude?
Consider the position of the vendor. It's good to make more money and you have to keep customers sweet, but you don't have to bow and scrape because someone gave you a pound coin, it's humiliating. If you don't, the person may well feel offended and think 'How ungrateful!' but you are forced into that position of expressing gratitude by an unsolicited gift.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:22 / 09.11.07
This is one of those cases where there are at least two possible manifestations of the abstract thing we're talking about.

You know how 'love' could be something very good, a special feeling you have for someone, but it could also be used as something to keep you with an abusive partner (people could say - 'you love them, so you should tolerate this')? And like respect for one's parents - there's the kind of respect where you value someone and appreciate what they do for you, and then there's the point where someone is saying you have to go along with your dad's dodgy idea of who you should marry out of 'respect'.

So with gratitude. There's the genuine feeling of gratitude, and then there's the point where people are saying you have to go and do something you don't want to because you should be 'grateful'. Or 'you should just be grateful I'm only slapping you and not hitting you'.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:19 / 09.11.07
There's the genuine feeling of gratitude, and then there's the point where people are saying you have to go and do something you don't want to because you should be 'grateful'.

I find this to be disturbingly common. It definitely makes me want to post in the STFU thread.
 
  
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