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Batwoman

  
 
This Sunday
11:30 / 08.11.07
Because we're threadrotting here, this is the thread to discuss Batwoman.

The Batwoman who is potentially the highest profile closeted gay, Jewish rich woman in mainstream American comics, and used to be in a relationship with the current Question before she took on that identity. I like her design, I like that she's only tangentially connected to the Bat-verse, mostly by name association and geographical happenstance, and she could look really cool striking some heroic I'm the goddammed Batwoman! pose next to The Question with spaceray drawn in the fog and shit dark, towering Gotham City. DC has, by my count, authorized her a series twice, now, with one having an issue and a half written and drawn, the newest having several issues completed, and yet, because they fear the potential press the character and her situation could garner, it appears nothing may get released for at least half a year or more.

This is annoying people. It may please some people, but I don't know anyone happy with this turn of events, nor have I heard any such sentiments online or in a comics shop.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:22 / 08.11.07
There's so much I want to know about the character. Obviously the most important one for me is why she decided to take up the mantle of The Bat? Why then just after Infinite Crisis? Was it because the city was suddenly without a protector (from a "blink and you'll miss it" panel in World War 3; Harvey Dent didn't actually start guarding Gotham until quite late in the missing year).

There is so much potential in the character and the way DC seems to be pissing it away is a bloody shame.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
12:40 / 08.11.07
Does anyone have any more info on the unreleased issues? It's the first I've heard about them, and I'd be interested to hear anything, especially if anyone knows who the creative teams were and if there was any information released as to the directions they were going in. I mean, yes they probably do remain unreleased for the obvious, unpleasant reasons, but I'd be interested in anything that indicates whether they were likely to actually be any good.
 
 
This Sunday
12:59 / 08.11.07
The writers were Devin Grayson for the first one that didn't happen, and Greg Rucka for the most recent. I have a preference for Grayson's work, but many people prefer the latter. Many other people don't like either, so you have that, too. I don't know who the artists were/are, and checking around, we don't know that the fear-of-press is why DC's not releasing these yet, if at all; it's a rumor that rings too readily true, but just a rumor.

So far as I can tell, she doesn't have any reason to be Batwoman aside from the kicks. I think if they spun it into a thing whereby it's cultural, putting on the tights is just this thing people do now, like carrying an iPod or torrenting comics, starting myspace pages for dead cats, it could be interesting enough and she wouldn't require a massive absurd tragedy to keep her going.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
13:19 / 08.11.07
I know Greg Rucka has written four issues and I believe the art is done- basically they could come out as an 80 page giant next week if DC (or rather DD- Dan DiDio) didn't think a non-existant moral majority would burn down the DC offices for having a gay character (y'know, like Grace, Thunder, Question, Obsidian, the Pied Piper and probably a bunch of others). From what little I can glean the (non)controversy stems from Kate being a lesbin Bat character, which is double bad because... mrrmrmmmph... ooh look, a squirrel!
Not to detract from the non-stop DiDio Hammer-Party or anything, but part of the blame for Batwoman's lack of exposure lies with the writers of Batman and Detective Comics (and even Robin, Catwoman and Nightwing) for not using her. Batman isn't the kind of guy to let just anybody put a bat on their chest and make with the Dark Justice- he would want to assess and maybe train Batwoman before he would tolerate her in His City. He'd want to create a role for her in the Bat family, give her a 'turf' that suits her skills and experience. So far there hasn't even been a mention of her- though she's hardly the first Bat-female to be sidelined: Spoiler doesn't get a trophy case, Batgirl can go nuts and have an army of ninjas without so much as a raised eyebrow, even Oracle barely gets a batphonecall these days.
 
 
Evil Scientist
13:37 / 08.11.07
Batman isn't the kind of guy to let just anybody put a bat on their chest and make with the Dark Justice- he would want to assess and maybe train Batwoman before he would tolerate her in His City. He'd want to create a role for her in the Bat family, give her a 'turf' that suits her skills and experience.

I think that'd be quite an interesting path to go though. Have someone guarding Gotham who doesn't have to be trained/guided by him. Someone who maybe doesn't have his experience but who is, skills-wise, him at Year One. I'd quite like Katherine to not feel she has to prove herself to Batman.

This is a Batwoman and I think that should come across in her character. She's an adult and she doesn't need him treating her like yet another star-struck teen.
 
 
Spaniel
14:22 / 08.11.07
To quote me elsewhere

I may be wrong but I would've thought most comics featuring Batwoman find their way into the hands of greying grownups rather than oh-my-God-the-children, which points to a rather strange situation where DC are being influenced by public misperception rather than market reality.

So we have a situation where the general public still think of comics as something primarily aimed at and bought by kids, which means that DC, in order to protect their the value of their brand feel compelled to act as if this were true even though it quite possibly isn't at all. Fucking stupid nonsense if you ask me, but it raises some interesting questions about just why DC want people to continue thinking comics (to totally misquote the tag line from the eighties) are just for kids.

I suppose they make a lot of money from their kiddie merchandising. That could explain it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:46 / 08.11.07
It's tricky to speculate on the reasons why Batwoman has pretty much disappeared, it does seem a bit odd to believe that DC would get cold feet after making such a big splash announcing her, worrying about damage to the Bat-brand after is rather like worrying about whether the stable door should be bolted after the Bat-Pony has legged it. I would have also thought the Time-Warner monolith is sturdy enough to withstand getting some heat for that, the people most likely to be angered by the Bat-Lesbian aren't likely to be reading Batman on a weekly basis and thinking it good clean fun as it is. There are two other lesbians in the bat-universe already.

It seems most confusing.
 
 
PatrickMM
22:55 / 08.11.07
Wasn't JH Williams rumored to be drawing a Batwoman series? Was that the Greg Rucka incarnation? I seem to recall he dropped some hints about it on this very board, but it was still confidential then. Any change in status there?

As for the character, having read the first 39 of 52, she didn't jump out as a must read, but she's got a lot of potential if written right, particularly with Montoya teamups. They could do that whole secret identity/civilian identity relationship dichotomy that paid great dividends in Batman Returns, among other places. And if JHW was on the art, it'd definitely be worth a look.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:30 / 09.11.07
Has the character got all that much potential in the first place though? Realistically, as a sexy, super-rich crime-fighting type, what would she be doing that Bruce Wayne, as written by Grant Morrison anyway, isn't already? Including chasing round after society It girls? She could be portrayed as a morally ambiguous femme fatale I suppose, but there's Catwoman for that, or she could be a female dark knight detective, but then whither the Huntress? There's even a 'gay Batman' knocking around at the moment, (albeit not in Gotham) in the form of the Midnighter.

Presumably if the people currently scripting Batman could think of anything interesting to do with Kathy Kane, they'd be doing it. And otherwise, I'm not sure if there's anything more sinister behind Batwoman's no-show than a concern on the part of DC editorial that her adventures would start off selling around 30,000 a month, and then drop off rapidly. As Our Lady says, if anyone at the company had had a problem with the concept, wouldn't it have been put on ice at a much earlier stage?

It may just be that DC didn't get the series organised in time for it to be launched off the back of '52', and that the idea now seems a bit past its best.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:07 / 09.11.07
Has the character got all that much potential in the first place though?

Quite a few people seem to think so, yes.

She could be portrayed as a morally ambiguous femme fatale I suppose

Well she wasn't portrayed that way in 52. She seemed into the preservation of life, even to the point of stopping Montoya blasting one of Intergang's were-beasties. Huntress is already doing the morally-ambiguous dark knight vigilante thing.

Okay she did stab Mannheim, but I think that's allowable under the heading "Dude just stabbed me in the chest and is trying to kill the love of my life.".

Presumably if the people currently scripting Batman could think of anything interesting to do with Kathy Kane, they'd be doing it.

It's not a suggestion that holds a lot of water with me though. The Big Two do occasionally piss away a potentially interesting character that's sparked public interest.

I personally feel it would be nice to see a superhero comic featuring a female lead who isn't Wonder Woman. Who could fit into the Gotham storyscape without having to constantly seek approval from Big Daddy Bat. Who's in a relationship with another newbie superhero and trying to make a relationship that obvious ended quite messily previously work better this time.

The thing with Midnighter is that his sexuality is at worst an excuse for purile writers to include homophobic slurwords and, at best, he's in an open relationship with Apollo surronded by other capes who have no problem with his sexuality. The only people who do are his enemies and he kicks them to death.

52 gives the impression that Kathy is still very much in the closet. Unlike Midnighter she's not a quasi-psychotic super-soldier living on a giant space ship. She's an unpowered human, a member of high society (and one presumes her decision to remain in the closet could be at least partially to do with the reaction she would get from her family), and unlike Wayne her gear seems to be home-made (so she's not quite the same Morrison super-spyBat). There is a heck of a lot that could be done storyline wise outside of her high-kicking Two-Face (well that's what I think, but what do I know?).

I don't really think that because there's one gay vigilante that there should never be another.
 
 
The Falcon
11:52 / 09.11.07
I personally feel it would be nice to see a superhero comic featuring a female lead who isn't Wonder Woman. Who could fit into the Gotham storyscape without having to constantly seek approval from Big Daddy Bat. Who's in a relationship with another newbie superhero and trying to make a relationship that obvious ended quite messily previously work better this time.

Yes, well, for the first two I imagine you could read Catwoman or, I don't know, Ms. Marvel and for the latter there is that Crime Bible book which I believe either features or is preluding to featuring this thread's titular character. It certainly features the new Question, who's to my mind, a thoroughly more engaging character on almost every level. Not so much as I'd read the book, however, clearly.
 
 
The Falcon
12:09 / 09.11.07
Actually...

EN: Batwoman: What role will she play, and will we learn more about her character?

GR: Kate’s in issue 3. She’s instrumental in issue 3. We get more hints about her life, and we get more hints about her relationship with Renee, and how the two feel about each other. The nutshell of the that relationship is that they are each the other’s great passion. But, like many great passions, that doesn’t actually mean they’re good for each other.

But if people are hoping for the reveal of Kate’s origin, for instance, or if she’s still working as Batwoman, or things like that…nope, not here. For the record, I know the answers to all those questions. I may, in fact, be only one of two or three people who do know those answers. But the mini is about the Question, not about Batwoman.

The “truth” about Batwoman is coming. That’s all I can say about that.

Well, that’s not true. I can say that, I think, readers will get a better sense of Kate from her appearance in issue 3 than they will have anywhere else prior. Remember, it’s been about a year for her since she nearly died, and that’s changed her outlook somewhat, too.

I might check this out now - TFO is always on about how good Checkmate is and Douglas Wolk gives it a good write-up. Hmm. The 52 followups have been pretty decent. Double hmm.
 
 
Evil Scientist
12:55 / 09.11.07
Yes, well, for the first two I imagine you could read Catwoman or, I don't know, Ms. Marvel and for the latter there is that Crime Bible book which I believe either features or is preluding to featuring this thread's titular character.

Admittedly I haven't read Catwoman for ages, but she is more of an anti-hero isn't she? A super-villain with a heart of gold.

Mary Marvel (is that who you're refering to?) is more of the "bright-eyed teen girl" brand of hero. I'd just like to see a female super-hero who isn't part of a team book like JLA or JSA, and isn't a teenager.

It seems to me that the majority of comics featuring female super-heroes have as their protagonist hot teenagers. What's wrong with having one where the protagonist is an adult?
 
 
Spaniel
13:03 / 09.11.07
I think there's a disproportionate number of female, hot teenage superheroes, but I'm not sure how many of them I'd describe as protagonists.

Wonder Woman
Cat Woman
Ms Marvel
Birds of Prey
Heroes for Hire

All protagonists. All women.
 
 
The Falcon
13:05 / 09.11.07
No, sorry - I wasn't being DCU specific and referred to Carol Danvers aka Warbird, Binary, etc. You could also try She-Hulk on same tip. I have no idea if these are good or terrible comics, btw.

Catwoman's more like hero-but-also-thief these days, innit?
 
 
The Falcon
13:05 / 09.11.07
All protagonists. All women.

None teenage.
 
 
Spaniel
13:13 / 09.11.07
Swhat I was getting at
 
 
The Falcon
13:30 / 09.11.07
Oh, right; I thought you were following through on Scientist's "It seems to me that the majority of comics featuring female super-heroes have as their protagonist hot teenagers. What's wrong with having one where the protagonist is an adult?" which accurately describes, well, Supergirl. And, eh, there's a Wonder Girl mini?

I see now you used 'women' as distinctive from 'spunky teen' or 'girl'. Aha.
 
 
Spaniel
14:43 / 09.11.07
Yuppers
 
 
Evil Scientist
19:42 / 09.11.07
I suppose. I still think that leaves plenty of space for a comic with a solo unpowered female vigilante more in the Batman/Green Arrow vein though.
 
 
The Falcon
20:18 / 09.11.07
All that being said, EvSci, I can sincerely and unabashedly suggest you at least put your financial weight behind 52 Aftermath: The Crime Bible: 5 Lessons of Blood, to give it its full title. Because it will feature at least two of said.
 
 
The Falcon
20:47 / 09.11.07
And, re: I don't really think that because there's one gay vigilante that there should never be another, well check it - both the new Question and Batwoman are, in addition to being solo unpowered female vigilantes, also gay. It is clearly the exact thing you best be on.

Failing that, if Selina's best pal Holly is still in Catwoman, she's a gay vig-in-training; I do know she's peripherally in the godawful Countdown (read links, maybe? Best thing about Countdown) so maybe best forgotten as likely pissed up a wall and also, unfortunately, teenage but she's a great character in all the comics I've read featuring her - of particular note is the stuff in this trade, Relentless, in particular the 'No Easy Way Down' arc, which I'd recommend pretty much unreservedly. Possibly my favourite three Brube comics EVAR, them. 'S not new, 's not an ongoing title with a gay female character* which - hey - I'd like to see a helluva lot too at least on an ethical basis but 'tis boss and 21st C superhero comics at their finest. Imho.

*I'd be interested in these axings of the Batwoman book, something I've somehow missed - DC has been slow to capitalise on the success of 52, at least creatively, the Aftermath books coming some 6 months down the line, and I was distinctly under the impression there would be a Batwoman book out at some point. (And a Great Ten one at that.) Any linkies plz?
 
 
This Sunday
20:54 / 09.11.07
I'm going to try to grab sooner than later, definitely, but I do have to wonder why we don't have this conversation in any of the threads about male heroes. We're not complaining that there are enough cosmic men flying about we don't need a ground-level one, or um... more that that there are just too many. Or have anyone pointing out that, despite the fact that much of what can be done with Batwoman can be done with Batman, he has like five titles regularly , to tell stories with him from different approaches, already, and Elseworlds have probably proven you can tell the stories of Confucius, Alexander the Great, and the biblical expulsion from Paradise all using Batman. I haven't read the too-many-books complaint in a while, now, and really, while I could miss out on a few Batman titles, for instance, it doesn't mean I don't like more than one. Doesn't mean I couldn't, ostensibly, enjoy more than one Batwoman title. A Question mini where she guests, a regular ongoing, a team-up book. These are things virtually any character, with the right creative teams, at just the right moment, could enjoy.

They could tell that story with Batman isn't really a good argument for anything other than how cool and versatile Batman is.

Added to that, Kane in current continuity is basically where Wayne was in his earliest stories, yeah? Not superdaddy billionaire in body armor with a Martian IFO, a JLA teleporter, and mass-produced batarangs, but millionaire playgirl full of secrets, pretense, and a few handmade tools to go smack villainy with. She should take up smoking a pipe and telling Montoya to wait until just the right moment to go after the Joker. That's something not provided by the Ms. Marvel or She-Hulk titles. It's something you can't get out of Batman without being a in-the-past story without being nonsensical in the face of Batman lives in the DCU, or out of Supergirl or Blue Beetle. And it's not even because she's gay, Jewish, or a woman. I just like the visual and the set-up, really, the lack of apparent drive. Bored millionaire playgirl. Hits things.

And I like the names of the writers and pencillers who've been mentioned so far, over the course of this title not happening. I'd be interested in at least checking out most anything Rucka, Grayson, or JH Williams are involved in, and it sucks that the stuff appears to be just getting shelved indefinitely.
 
 
The Falcon
21:25 / 09.11.07
She should take up smoking a pipe and telling Montoya to wait until just the right moment to go after the Joker. That's something not provided by the Ms. Marvel or She-Hulk titles.

Hard to argue, that one.

Look - perhaps it should be clarified: there are not enough female, black, hispanic, oriental, gay etc. characters in superhero comics. I don't think there'll be terribly much debate over that on Barbelith. To some extent this may be due to the percentiles of readership or authorship, but even then I'd be deeply unshocked if even comparatively these were not disproportionate figures. Absolutely. One of the legacies of 52 was increase on these numbers, on visibility and was laudable in intent, so it's a shame that perhaps this isn't being built upon.

All I've tried to do here is say: if you want this, perhaps these are things that fit. The Crime Bible is, well, it's a fucking start isn't it? At least that. So, really, why was it not even mentioned here hitherto my first post and can it be assumed all Batwoman fans/complainants will be following the series? I might, I like Renee Montoya a great deal, but I could honestly give a rat's ass for Kathy Kane at this point because she's basically not even a character as yet so much as a series of bulletpoints.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:07 / 10.11.07
I'm going to try to grab sooner than later, definitely, but I do have to wonder why we don't have this conversation in any of the threads about male heroes

Right, sorry. I did mean to say there are far too many basically identical vigilantes, of whatever sex or sexuality, running round Gotham at the moment in general, IMVHO. Without wishing to sound too John Byrne about this, they should keep it simple. As female protagonists go, Catwoman, Batgirl and the Huntress are surely enough, in the same way that Batman, Robin* and Nightwing are?

* There are many Robins now, I appreciate. Too many.
 
 
Evil Scientist
08:33 / 12.11.07
Batgirl and the Huntress

Although AFAIK neither of these are actually in Gotham these days. The former's turned supervillain, the latter is with BoP who (last I was aware) operate out of Metropolis and are relatively global in their head-kicking.

Falcon, I'll definitely pick up Crime Bible for the Question goodness.
 
  
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