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Dollhouse: New Joss Whedon show

 
  

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grant
19:44 / 06.11.07
So, E! Online are reporting that Joss Whedon and Eliza "Faith" Dushku are coming out with a new show about a characterless character named Echo. A bit like Neo in the first Matrix movie, she can be anything - skills and personalities downloaded to order. Temporarily. The rest of the time, she's supposed to be a tabula rasa. Only she isn't, quite.

Seven episodes have been greenlit by FOX - just in time for the writers strike to knock everything off.
 
 
Hieronymus
21:35 / 06.11.07
Why he returns to FOX after the 3 card monte they gave Firefly is beyond me.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
22:31 / 06.11.07
Yes, well, let's not quibble about that and wish the best for him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:10 / 07.11.07
Eliza Dushku plays mindwiped ass-kicking sexbot. Hmmm.

I'd like this to be good, but I'm not totally convinced that the Whedon pixie dust is going to be enough, especially since this sort of reset-button television can be pretty viewer-hostile; whereas Firefly never really got off the ground, Angel was kiled by a failure to entice casual viewers in its later series. However, everything he's done so far has sounded dubious on paper, and has usually turned out at least passably well, so fingers crossed.

(As for FOX - as I understand it, FOX were looking for an Eliza Dushku project, and she got him involved. Following the money, essentally, although why they thought an Eliza Dushku project was a good dea is another question, of course.)
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:01 / 07.11.07
Following the money, essentally, although why they thought an Eliza Dushku project was a good dea is another question, of course.

Two words... Tru Calling.

The show so good they had Jason Priestly in it.
 
 
iamus
10:18 / 07.11.07
Sounds very Quantum Leap to me.
 
 
Seth
10:38 / 07.11.07
Well, it's a premise. Any premise can be made good by decent writing. This one lends itself to both episodic and serialised writing, you could potentially establish a very interesting Memento-style arc plot, or Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind-style arc subplot, or Aeon Flux style weirdo resets in which the "villain" and "hero" swap roles according to the job they're assigned... knowing in advance that you're going to lose your memories has already been an excellent narrative driver for a ten episode arc of another excellent show that quite a few people have been into on this forum recently. All the premise needs to be is a jumping off point for a whole lot more, and Whedon has a higher chance of pulling that off than most.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:39 / 07.11.07
Tru Calling was Quantum Leap, essentially, without those tiring and expensive changes of scene. It also stunk out the ratings, and is remarkable for taking down (so we thought) not just Eliza Dushku, but another Buffy alumna, Marti Noxon, whose also-stinky replacement Point Pleasant did even worse, creating a quantum event where it was cancelled actually before Noxon thought of it. And then released on DVD. This feels a bit more like Alias - a new identity every week - but with the sci-fi brainwipe element, and if Whedon's subconscious is now writing the stories probably also some leather outfits.

Still, it seems Dushku and Whedon are still interesting enough to risk seven episodes on - which really isn't much for Americans, though. People complain that Tru Calling wasn't given a chance after 26, and the untimely death of Firefly is of course much lamented.
 
 
Seth
10:49 / 07.11.07
Eliza Dushku plays mindwiped ass-kicking sexbot. Hmmm.

Well, yes. I'm not wholly sure whether or not Whedon has ever fully owned up to writing the kind of female characters whose toes he'd like to nibble (although at this stage I don't know how much of this story premise is what he bought to the table). In interview maybe (could anyone source one?), but not in the show itself (and certainly not with the level of honesty about ones own culpability that Hideaki Anno managed with Gunbuster).
 
 
iamus
14:22 / 09.11.07
Well, yes. I'm not wholly sure whether or not Whedon has ever fully owned up to writing the kind of female characters whose toes he'd like to nibble

It's a criticism I've seen levelled at Whedon before, but it's not one that I'm entirely sure holds a whole lot of water. Last night, I finally started watching the last season of Buffy and I'd forgotten how much I loved that show (I used to follow it religiously, but for one reason or another let it hang after the disappointing sixth).

Point is, that while Whedon has a knack for writing sassy, pretty ass-kicking girls it's far from being his only trick. In Buffy, in particular, the men spend far more time smouldering and flashing their flesh than any of the women. While in Firefly, the most complex, interesting and sexiest character by quite a margin is Mal Reynolds. I'm not sure you could really pin River to him in the same way you could Buffy. She's an exploited, mentally-damaged young girl. If anything, she's the beginnings of critique on exactly this.

I don't think it's entirely surprising that Whedon has written female characters that he'd like to get with. As a writer, you go with what you know, so inevitibly his creations are going to reflect those parts of his personality somewhere down the line. I do think however that Whedon writes his female characters with a depth and understanding that is a good step above most of what is (or at any rate was pre-Buffy) being shown on TV. He writes intelligent, strong, passionate and vulnerable characters (most prominently women) in such a way that if you're any sort of smart, empathic person you can't really help but be attracted to them.

Anno is very clever in being upfront and honest about the use of female characters in his work and in his medium, but in doing so, his heroines do end up half naked quarter the time and I don't think any of really them measure up to the depth of character laid down in Whedon's oeuvre. That's not necessarily a completely fair comparison though when you weigh up the collective screentime of Whedon's against Anno's.

I think a large part of Whedon's work does address the exploitation of women, though its not really framed in such meta terms. River and Buffy are both reflections of this, young girls exploited by stuffy old men in suits, whether it be for the greater good or evil. Dollhouse sounds as if it could well be the development of this trend to the point of proper dissection. Certainly from the way that he and Dushku talk in the interview is sounds as being such, and really, for a writer of Whedon's depth and smarts it's seems kind of impossible with a setup like this that it's going to miss the glaringly obvious themes that seem hard-wired into its concept.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:56 / 09.11.07
although why they thought an Eliza Dushku project was a good dea is another question, of course

The only person they polled was me. Did I do such a bad thing?
 
 
iamus
16:53 / 09.11.07
Tru Calling was Quantum Leap, essentially, without those tiring and expensive changes of scene.

Hrmmmm... I think I may have caught all of about four minutes of Tru Calling.

That's about four minutes that could have been better spent watching Quantum Leap, tbh.
 
 
PatrickMM
04:54 / 14.02.09
I don't think any of really them measure up to the depth of character laid down in Whedon's oeuvre.

Even with caveat of Whedon's longer development time, I'd argue that Asuka stands with any of Whedon's characters in terms of emotional complexity. She's different because she's built for a 26 episode story, and has a clearer beginning and end in her narrative arc, but within that arc, there's layers and nuance that match up with what Whedon did. I love them both, and I'm not shortchanging Whedon at all here, I'm just saying that Anno's work can match up.

And, nearly 18 months after it was announced, Dollhouse has finally debuted. I've got mixed feelings about the debut. The stuff about the house itself is pretty interesting, but the standalone story didn't engage me at all. The question going forward is will it be more developing plot or just random standalone adventures.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
00:40 / 16.02.09
I finally watched the debut this evening and I will say that I think it has promise. The initial idea left me a bit cold when I read about it, but watching it in action, I see the potential. I agree about that standalone story though. It seemed hokey and not quite believable.

MattS and I do agree that it will interesting to watch Eliza Dushku actually be other people since her range seems (to us, at least) fairly limited.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:34 / 16.02.09
Its Eliza Dushku in a variety of pretty outfits. While I am sure that many of us can appreciate that, I'm less sure if it is enough to support a TV series.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
12:40 / 16.02.09
Oh, the opening credits alone are like fuzzy softcore porn featuring only her.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
21:40 / 18.02.09
The standalone gets a pass this time because it was the pilot, and regardless of how well-planned this thing is, the pilot is always going to be weak. The idea is marginally interesting, particularly the element of each personality being composites constructed out of actual people's experiences spliced together, standard Peter Milligan fare. Dushku plays blank rather well. There's a stunning number of good actors in this (the guy who played Aron the Moor in Julie Taymor's TITUS! Elizabeth from RUSHMORE!).

And of course the nerdy lab-technician with no apparent remorse will probably continue to push my sexy evil genius buttons. Blah.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:03 / 19.02.09
I really want this to be good...

Rumour is uncertain. On the other hand, there's the whole "multiple pilot" thing, so maybe it takes a while.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
13:55 / 19.02.09
From what I've been reading, the second episode to air tomorrow night was originally supposed to have been the pilot.
 
 
PatrickMM
15:32 / 19.02.09
I don't think that's right. At the New York Comicon, Joss said that pieces of the original pilot have been cut up and put in to other episodes, but it'll never air as was. The episode tomorrow was originally supposed to have been the fifth or sixth, but Fox liked it so much, they bumped it up to two.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:44 / 19.02.09
Mm, but I thought he also said that part of the way they've written the show was that the first episodes are all accessible to someone who has seen none of the others, whereas after, say, Ep 6 the main storyline kicks in.

Or am I thinking of a different show?
 
 
Lugue
11:27 / 20.02.09
No, you're right - Whedon has said something about a bunch of the first episodes working, each one, as a stand-alone pilot, with the overall narrative arch emerging some time later in the season. Their way of navigating the ongoing narrative//procedural choice. I'm not convinced it's an intelligent one so far; the nerdier Whedonites are faced with a series of disconnected episodes without the usual character-building and narrative thrust, the less familiar viewers are faced with a procedural which will eventually suddenly swerve into a more plot-driven show. It's supposed to fit two different sets of expectations, but I think it may end up just frustrating (fucking with) both.

I'm unconvinced by the pilot. There's been a few names thrown out as comparison points for the show, but the one that comes to mind to me is Alias, actually. Not the gimmicky disguises, which here are well, the whole point and, we expect, more than that. But something about the very tone of the whole thing, and the obvious sense, built-up by all interviews and reviews, that it might be reasonable to expect a lot to fall away into further questions, each aspect picked out further and further as we go along.

The problem with the comparison is that Alias was clearly plot-driven from the get-go, with steady characters. But that's my point: it could depend on some fixed elements and some clear overall archs from the get-go to then follow into its twists and complications. Dollhouse can't possibly hold on to that: its main character, in fact, its main plot point, the institution and its space, are marked as anonymous; they're the misteries themselves, or the macguffins (am I using this right?) themselves, which is asking for an unusual ammount of patience from viewers, starting with very little information.

Another thing about Alias was that it was built in a very brisk pace; there's a rythm which might be disorientating but pulls the viewer into reading out its plot dynamics. Here, we've been asked to spend an entire pilot on a single personality imprint, wallowing in the details. It's not depending on rythm, but it can't possible depend on depth yet either.

I don't mean to set Alias as a standard - it's just that when comparing the two, Dollhouse's issues become easier to phrase for me.



On the other hand...



Yes, thank you.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
14:24 / 20.02.09
Amen to that.

I will greatly amused if the benchmark of taking Eliza Dushku as a serious character (i.e., from episode one, hostage negotiator) is pulled back hair (the chignon or bun), a briefcase, and glasses.

What is Echo this week? A nuclear physicist? Pull back her hair, slap some glasses on her!

A stern librarian out to thwart a gang of past-due scofflaws?
Pull back her hair, slap some glasses on her!
 
 
Aha! I am Klarion
03:34 / 21.02.09
I have to whole-heartedly endorse the show after watching the first two episodes this evening. I agree that the pilot was pretty weak. But the second episode is more Whedonesque in that it not only displays whedon's pet themes of existentialism and feminismnist critique but also the subtle hints of some the amazing places the over-arching plot and thematic content for the series could go.

However, I think that the only real danger the show has facing it is becoming to complacent with mission-of-the-week structure (which I doubt will happen unless Whedon is fired or quits).

That said, this episode was much more in-tune structurally with a good buffy or firefly episode.

But what really struck me this week was:

- The FBI man's next door neighbor! Creepy! Never trust women who cook.

- The passing "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" reference by Adelle (the boss lady) to Boyd's "unique background". Hello people!

- Laurence's (the guy from Homicide) bullying of Echo, which is obviously a expression of his subconscious realization that he too is a Doll. Once again, think about it!

-The mystery of "Alpha"

- The painfully obvious "why-didn't-I-think-of-that-before" revelation that I could not be sure of ANY of the characters being who the think or say they are! Including the Dollhouse handlers, the FBI, the Russian mob, even Echo.

- A cameo by Mark Sheppard (aka Romo Lampkin of Battlestar Galactica)!

-The mystery of the identity of alpha.

Simply put: Dollhouse is a show with cute girl and Phillip K. Dick machine!

P.S. Since adverts for the new Watchmen movie were stuffed between every commercial, I must ask, "Who watches the Dollhouse?" (Meaning the organization not the show itself).

p.p.s. I was complaining to a friend of mind about the cheap look of the show. However, I reversed my opinion when I realized that things might be weirder than they first appear--and maybe even weirder than that.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
12:19 / 21.02.09
Last night's episode was infinitely better than the first. I liked finding out that a lot was not what it seemed.

Laurence's bullying of Echo was compelling and disturbing. Why? Does he have ulterior motives no one at Dollhouse knows about?

The actor's turn from "wilderness guy who wants a wilderness girlfriend for a week" to "wilderness guy who will have sex with you and then give you five minutes before he tracks your ass down and kills you" was frightening. Especially when we find out at the end he was not who he said to be at all.

Boyd continues to be warm and awesome; I think he may be the conscience of the show.

More questions about Alpha. I thought for a hot minute that the faux ranger dude was Alpha, but then realized Whedon wouldn't show his hand so soon like that.

Dr. Saunders? Does she have scars all over or just on her face? How come she survived when so many did not?

One of the saddest and creepiest parts was when you saw Echo in middle of all those slain dolls. Why is she special? Her naivete---"They won't wake up"---is both touching and scary.

And I like the FBI agent's neighbor. (So far, his plotline is the slowest and least interesting; I hope it picks up.) Her loneliness is palpable.

I'm hoping this is a sign that it's starting to heat up and move along nicely. Though next week's show re: protecting a diva-like singer looks incredibly ridiculous.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
20:44 / 25.02.09
Rumor Central has it on semi-good authority that Alpha will be played by +] [-] Spoiler

Don't look if you like surprises. I don't entirely believe it will be true just yet, but if it is, then some faith (har har) has been restored.
 
 
buttergun
16:25 / 27.02.09
I finally watched both episodes, looking forward to tonight's. I agree the second episode was much better; it's funny the above poster said it was "more Whedonesque." According to the opening credits, the second episode was neither written nor directed by Whedon. It's kind of like the "Empire Strikes Back" scenario -- the best Star Wars film, but also the one that Lucas was least involved in.

I'm enjoying this so far. I always preferred Faith to Buffy, anyway. My only problem really was how the psycho guy was chasing Echo around, right after they had sex. I mean, I'm lucky if I have the energy to take a shower afterwards. But this guy was running through the woods, paralelling down cliffs, etc. I guess psychos just have some extra energy reserve or something.

BTW, didn't that fake cop look very much like Nathan Fillion? At first I thought it was him. Wonder if it was a younger brother or something? To IMDB!
 
 
buttergun
16:34 / 27.02.09
Okay, no relation, but definitely looks like him:


Fake Cop Guy
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
18:22 / 27.02.09
I'm with you, buttergun. Afterwards I just want to go to sleep, not go rappelling or bowhunting.

Tonight's episode looks a bit silly, but of course I will reserve judgment until it airs.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
01:09 / 28.02.09
"I'm not crazy...I just want to be free".

This...this is not a good show. The writing is pretty crappy, both in terms of dialogue (see above example, or any of the other thirty stale, cliched or downright asinine lines throughout the latest episode) and the enormous plot holes, the acting is static and there is a severe lack of likeable characters.

Alright, I admit it, the latest is the only episode I've seen. And I was never a huge fan of Buffy (although I enjoyed it whenever it was on the television and I had no previous engagements) and never bothered with Angel. But I can't for the life of me see any redeeming qualities of this show. I will wait for someone to point them out to me. And more pictures of pasty, shapeless white guys don't count.

...the pilot is always going to be weak

Cop out. Demonstrably false.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
04:57 / 28.02.09
SPOILER

Okay, all of y'all that said Lubov was a Doll, please step right the fuck up.

I didn't see it coming.

More thoughts tomorrow.
 
 
Kali, Queen of Kitteh
05:02 / 28.02.09
P.S., TBP, I am sorry you don't like the show. I didn't either upon hearing about the initial premise. I like it much better upon the second episode, this third one was okay, but seriously, sweets, if you're gonna be a hater (and it's your total right to be), can you please be nice or get gone?

(Judging from your B'lith profile, I'm supposing you might be Flyboy or one of his ficsuits. So I know no matter what I say, you're gonna hate on me anyway. I still like you though.)
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
10:22 / 28.02.09
No, Flyboy was an avid Buffy watcher and a huge fan of Angel.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:01 / 28.02.09
TBP is.. hmm. Tuna Ghost? Tsuga? It gets a bit blurry.

But for the love of Heaven. Every time I think Barbelith has hit bottom, some new stupidity turns up. Can somebody show me what TBP said that was so awful that it's justifiable to tell him he ought to leave?
 
 
Lugue
14:07 / 28.02.09
I don't think Kali meant the board, just that the post's tone might not be ideal for an effective discussion of the show, because ze seems rather agressive from the get-go. Not that I necessarily agree with her, though I do think that people opposed to the Moh in all his pasty, huge-nosed glory (and, well, yes, whiteness*, which I wasn't aware would be an issue) should, maybe, be banned, or shot.

Haven't yet watched this latest episode but have already read some mentions of Eliza... singing. You know, this whole "Dushku Showcase" is starting to carry the stench of a bizarre overbudget Faith fan-fic. She can kick ass! She can wear glasses! She can sing! She has large breasts! Can she fly? Is she Jesus? But I'm trying to hold onto the hope that there's a point to this.

(* Sort of.)


-


On the adoration note, re: the talk upthread between El Directo and iamus: Whedon, responding to the "Why strong women?" question:

I don't remember if I gave the one answer that I don't really think I understood at the time, was that I do it to help myself. That that is my identification figure. Those characters are the person that I am in my fiction. They're like my avatars. I really hadn't realized that and it's weird for me not to. All those years of writing Buffy, I'd say, "Well, I relate to Xander." And it was always Buffy. Buffy was always the person that I was in that story because I'm not in every way. Why my identification figure is female, I'm not exactly sure but she is. So it was a true kind of therapy, a real autobiographical kind of therapy for me to be writing that particular character, that strong woman. I don't know why.

So, if anything, Whedon is a fictional lesbian.

Or, more seriously, there's something more complex at play then mere hetero-desire projection. Whedon has explicitly identified as a feminist for a long time, as a heritage from his mother - in fact, some recent interview or other has either him or Dushku setting the fact that both of their mothers are, were, feminists as a point of contact and companionship for both.

In these terms, it might be more useful to think of Whedon's efforts as guided by familial affect and identity, maybe even a strong identification with his mother herself. Though I'd say there's a limit to the use, and the merit, of trying to linearly "justify" an author's choices through biography. But I thought this was a point worth making.
 
  

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