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Wonder Woman's Birthday?

 
 
Grady Hendrix
18:14 / 31.10.07
It looks like I'm doing a piece in the New York Sun about Wonder Woman's birthday and I'm stumped. I know the publication month of All Star Comics #8 where she first appeared (December 1941) but what's the day? My editor demands to know!

Also, what are folks' thoughts on old WW? She seems to be a huge pop cultural icon and her merchandising is still popular, but her actual comic and movie presence seems to be more than a little lacking. The best Wonder Woman I've seen recently was Darwyn Cooke's warrior princess in NEW FRONTIERS, but apart from that she seems pretty underused. I tried to read a few issues of her title when Jodi Picoult was writing it and I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
 
 
FinderWolf
06:41 / 01.11.07
well, Gail Simone is taking over writing the monthly WW book in a few months, and if anyone could write some kick-ass WW, it would be her. Fans have been clamoring for her to write the book for a long time, and not because she's, you know, a GIRL. She's a sharp writer. I really enjoyed Greg Rucka's 3-year Wonder Woman run --- to my mind, Rucka's is the best WW run since Perez. Other than that, WW has been mostly forgettable, kitschy 70s/80s and wacky 1940s bondage stuff aside.

The WW treatment in the upcoming Justice League movie doesn't look all that encouraging. Time will tell. and we all know what happened to Joss Whedon's WW movie treatment.
 
 
This Sunday
07:51 / 01.11.07
Oldschool WW comics are truly marvelous, even when they're totally suspect in their sexual, social, and global politics. There's an energy, much mirrored in the Diana of the era, who far less den-mothery or pinup than she often is today, and much more likely to just plow into danger, get tied up, and hit things. With a moral tagged in somewhere.

I mean, the first thing she did with that lasso of truth was to make a doctor stand on her head! Competitors getting hit by the bullets in that Bullets and Bracelets game! Very little effort to make Steve Trevor anything more than a good-looking plot device. And, even as Batman and Superman are returned occasionally to their earlier stylized atmospheres and personalities, it's hard to do that with WW because it's a woman, you see, and she should be [fill in the blank, 'cause I'm too lazy and the list is too long], which is the sort of thing the early comics left to back-of-the-issue essays or the letters page but didn't really show up in the stories. Diana was the perfect woman, meek and demure and respectful, we may be told in a response to a letter from a fan, but we don't really ever see that in any story, aside from some swoony bondage moments, which pass quickly back into excitement and enthusiasm.

Marc Andreyko did a good job with her in Manhunter, recently. I found her annoyingly entertaining in All-Star Batman, and I Can't Believe it's Not the Justice League which both appear to be satires or intense parodies of two ways to take her character, with the latter being the most frequent, because little girls are supposed to prefer it or somesuch. Why you can't combine the two and have a proper Wonder Woman, who's all impetus and innate sense of justice and competition, intensity and BDSM and unity, learning to walk in an alien world, who knows? That's one thing that sets her apart from both Superman and Batman, is that she didn't learn her morals, her mores or habits, in our societies. Superman, for all his birthright, was raised in the States, raised human and American and whatnot. Diana was a chunk of stone on a xenophobic island of superbadass women who shoot at each other for fun and whose gods walk amongst and so on. She's on assignment. She had to win being Wonder Woman, as opposed to announcing herself such or winning it in the lottery of a dying alien being relatively close to you.

Do it in the style of, oh, Hellsing and sit back and watch the book fly off the shelves. Which, hopefully, Simone's version will do anyway.
 
 
This Sunday
08:34 / 01.11.07
And the day would depend on location, geographically, wouldn't it? Among other things? I don't think these had a strict release/holding date to adhere to; just open package and shelf/rack'em.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
15:19 / 01.11.07
You know, you may have put your finger on the inability of DC to capitalize on Wonder Woman: she's not American. Hell, she's barely even human. Superman is raised in the US with good old American values, Batman is an ultra-capitalist who believes in noblesse oblige and the duties of the rich to aid the poor, but Wonder Woman is a warrior princess from another culture who's sculpted out of clay. She's not holding up the values of truth, justice and the American way. If anything she's imprinted with the very scary Greek values of suffering, the inevitability of fate, and harsh justice as being the only cold comfort on this planet.

She does temper that with compassion and a commitment to truth and loyalty, but the woman is probably a moral monster if taken to her logical conclusion.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:13 / 01.11.07
MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnIIIIIIIIIII dunno. If anything, I think she's the classic immigrant story, shifting from one set of values—the classical Greek/warrior values in which she was raised—into the superhero values of compassion and interventionism. She's at her most interesting, I think, when those two sides rub up against each other in uncomfortable ways.

She's the first-generation immigrant mom struggling with the decision whether to enter her second-generation daughter into an arranged marriage; the faithful Jew trying to reconcile his orthodoxy with his love for a gentile woman. She's all about assimilation, syncretism, compromise, accommodation. And she must always be a work in progress, and forever incomplete.
 
 
Hieronymus
16:17 / 01.11.07
And it doesn't get anymore star-spangled than that costume.
 
 
EvskiG
17:01 / 01.11.07
I know the publication month of All Star Comics #8 where she first appeared (December 1941)

Don't forget, comics back then usually listed a date a couple of months later than their actual publication date so they could stay on newsstands as long as possible.

The Les Daniels book "DC Comics" says it came out "just a few weeks before the United States entered World War II" (on December 8).

And The New York Sun? Ick.
 
 
Aertho
17:16 / 01.11.07
And she must always be a work in progress, and forever incomplete.

/agree with Mr. Fear.

A while back, I was riffing a nice and tight treatment for a potential beginning WW film, and it was themed on transitions, because that's what Diana's about in the beginning. People seem to insist she needs to be this majestic paragon of female strength at all times. Diana's between worlds, true, but she's wise enough to realize what ideals all worlds share, and fight for them.

Getting tied up can be done in the details of our lives.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
12:41 / 02.11.07
The interesting thing about the Sun, and not to get too off-topic here, is that it is a neo-conservative paper politically (I can't read the Op-Ed page without turning into a slavering werewolf) but culturally it's pretty amazing. It's the only place in New York outside of weekly magazines where long-form coverage is allowed of bizarre movies, auctions, art gallery exhibits, and architecture. And when I say long-form I mean around 1000 words - that's long for a newspaper. I've been a full-time freelancer for them for the last 3 years and what I've gotten to cover just recently: 70's made-for-tv horror movies, a huge piece on the 1968 7-1/2 hour Russian version of WAR AND PEACE, a long piece on Cathay - Hong Kong's musical and comedy studio of the 1960's, and before that I got to write about comic books' war on fun, a top ten end-of-the-year list about movies that no one saw, and a response to the folks blaming the Virginia Tech shooting on movies and video games telling them that they're a bunch of racists (and that comic books are racist, too! that was fun - because they are!)

If anyone's interested, here's the piece on Asian-baiting in comic books:
http://www.nysun.com/article/53085

And here's the piece on why comics aren't fun right now (sort of, and the copy editing is dodgy):
http://www.nysun.com/article/49173

And if you're a real masochist, try almost 8 hours of WAR AND PEACE:
http://www.nysun.com/article/64903

Anyways, enough about the Sun. As a bleeding heart liberal it does occasionally freak me out that I make most of my income writing for a neo-conservative paper but paying the rent makes for strange bedfellows. Wonder Woman would probably just say, "Hah!" and smite me with her sword.
 
 
EvskiG
14:18 / 02.11.07
I'm not that surprised.

The Sun isn't really intended to attract readers or make money, so why not allow a bit of freedom on the arts pages?
 
 
Grady Hendrix
14:20 / 02.11.07
Exactly!

A quick Wonder Woman question: what do people think is the definitive WW? Is it the Perez WW? Rucka? Grant Morrison's JLA WW? I lean towards Darwyn Cooke's NEW FRONTIERS WW myself but I never read Perez or Rucka's.
 
 
Aertho
15:35 / 02.11.07
I used to think Perez WW was definitive. And from a certain perspective, it still is... but it's SO DAMN WORDY. I still really like the emphasis on foreign culture, faith and defiance, tangible divinities, and the vast array of women in the first few arcs.

The Kapatelis' women, Myndi Mayer, Valerie Beaudry, Phillipus, Hippolyte, Circe, Barbara Minerva. They were each very different, and Diana learned from them.

The problem forr me , aside from the prevailing gender war politik, was that Diana's predominant characteristic was her innocent curiosity, and not her self-asssured confidence. It's hard to describe, but Diana never felt like a SUPER HERO, though she was a decent protagonist.

Getting the wide eyed new girl from Ancient Myth to embrace the New World and the cape it put on her was slowest transition Perez and Co took, and I feel, that was their mistake.
 
 
EvskiG
15:44 / 02.11.07
Personally, I'd go with Robert Kanigher's Silver Age Wonder Woman.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:24 / 02.11.07
In terms of cleaning up & redefining WW for the modern era: Perez' WW (say, the first 25 issues or so - after then it got a bit wonky, and then just plain bad).

In terms of rocking out a very cool, post-Perez take on WW: Rucka.

Cooke's New Frontier WW is great too, but it's a pretty small role she has in the larger mini, so I don't factor it in all that much...it's not anything like a long run on a monthly book starring the character.
 
 
Grady Hendrix
19:03 / 02.11.07
I guess the big question I keep picking at is why Wonder Woman isn't more popular? She's one of the top three most recognizable of the DC heroes (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, then...Aquaman?), she's had a successful TV series, she's a pop culture icon, has appeared on the cover of magazines, her name has found its way into the vernacular, but she just doesn't seem to generate the excitement of Superman or Batman: no big motion picture, a low selling title, her major crossover event was a snoozer...what's wrong with this dame? Is it just plain old simple sexism?
 
 
Aertho
19:54 / 02.11.07
It starts with sexism, I'm sure.

I'd guess it's just a challenge to write adventure stories for a female protagonist who STARTS where most heroes end up: strong, wise, beautiful, at peace and in grace. I can imagine a furious Princess Diana, an smartass Wonder Woman, or single and dating Di, but a lot of people hold her cover poses so close to their heart, the character has no room to be, much less breathe.

The costume's gotta go though. It's iconic, but it's also the first wall people can't get over.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
00:27 / 03.11.07
The costume's gotta go though. It's iconic, but it's also the first wall people can't get over.

The problem is finding a new costume design that looks both iconic, decidedly "wonderous," and would catch the public imagination in quite the same way; part of WW's appeal has always been the slight...kitsch factor...of her costume. And as much as the I like Agent Diana Prince look, it isn't quite so dynamic (or maybe it could be, particularly paired with Superman and Batman, as a compromise between the bright and the dark by just being plain old white?)...
 
 
Grady Hendrix
02:40 / 03.11.07
I always thought WW looked best when she was all armored up, Greek warrior style. Those leather skirts, gold helmets and shiny swords always seemed to be her style to me.
 
 
This Sunday
06:04 / 03.11.07
I think the golden armor look seems reasonable, but it's not Wonder Woman and it's not her culture. She isn't Greek. Neither ancient nor modern.

I'd go in the other direction and intensify the costume along different lines, to reflect the way the Amazons in general looked, back in those early adventures. The cuts and arrangements were much more Flash Gordony than they were ancient Greek; thin black collar-esque necklaces, button-down high necked backless gowns, and a very sturdy sense to all the clothes, as though they're meant to be fought in.

Step one would be just giving her a bodysuit similar to most of her class of male superheroes, I think. Step two would be establishing it, visually, as being a dense or sturdy material, similar to Morrison's suggestion when he was on JLA about costume materials looking futuristic and slick. Then, possibly giving her a skirt (with pleats, yes), as well, because I like the skirt, and it gives a passing nod to greco-roman expectations if done correctly. She should look armored without wearing obvious segmented or body-distorting armor. Basically, nothing should cling revealingly to develop mutant cameltoe, we don't particularly need pantyshots of Wonder Woman, and nothing she wears should go fluttering or swishy in a breeze like it's made of tissue paper.

I don't think you need to get rid of the Americana flag stuff in her outfit, if you position it as distinctly political. Especially early on, Wonder Woman really was pushing for the U!S!A! a lot. Like many first gen immigrants. She's trying to be American. (Spin that into a 'The World is Not America' story, then, somewhen down the line, to let her get her global feet better.)
 
 
Aertho
17:13 / 05.11.07
Costume Schmostume. It can be done. I've done it. (Note to self.)

Back to the topic at hand: Why isn't the Wonder Woman character used more in media? I'd suggest that it's more than a bit of "precious sexism" on the part of fans. Little boys fell in love with Lynda Carter and now they keep her in a glass case on top of a pedestal so no one can ogle her star spangled crotch without a full understanding that she represents the full onslaught of female strength and wisdom. That pedestal comes from years of politics and publicity, and we're all guilty of that crap.

Another thing that makes Batman and Superman so much more marketable and colloquial is that they have a myth to follow the man. Batman avenges his parents by tangling with various costumed jokers, Superman balances adventures with Clark Kent, Lois Lane, and Lex Luthor. Kids can playact their stories. That's not really the case with Princess Diana. Who really knows who Julia Kapatelis is, or why she's cool?

Then there's the whole Greek myth angle that everyone thinks is important, but is really only a point of departure or a place to play in. Everytime I think there's a better way to do her story while mixing myth with heroics, I realize it was better in Promethea.
 
 
FinderWolf
04:29 / 11.11.07
Gail Simone's first WW issue comes out next week. Very excited. The 4-page or so preview that's gone up looks aces. Art by the Dodsons.
 
 
FinderWolf
03:09 / 16.11.07
new Simone WW is out! A cursory skim shows it to be pretty cool, and fun (always a Simone trademark - fun in comic books!). More later... what'd everyone think?
 
 
Grady Hendrix
03:45 / 16.11.07
It's not as fun as I wish it was. The super-monkeys? Super-fun. The Nazi invasion? Cool. But there's still a lot of continuity and universe chores that stick out like sore thumbs.
 
 
SiliconDream
06:51 / 16.11.07
I think the golden armor look seems reasonable, but it's not Wonder Woman and it's not her culture. She isn't Greek. Neither ancient nor modern.

I take it you're going back to Marston Wonder Woman here? Amazons were pretty much always culturally Greek after him AFAIK, and of course Perez made them a transplanted Greek city-state. But I agree that old-school WW was awesome; Marston created one of the most fascinating superheroines in history.

What other character follows a philosophy remotely like hers? Submission is the highest form of charity and the greatest expression of love. Society's ills are due to people, usually men, seeking power over others without being willing to give others power over themselves. Diana's cure is to take control of them, through charm and kindness, and then release them once they've learned to willingly give themselves to her.

And it worked! We didn't just see her fight the same archenemies and send them to jail over and over; she took them to her therapeutic love dungeon and the Amazons dominatrixed them into model citizens of a polyamorous matriarchal utopia.

If you try to force all that into subtext and allusion, it comes off as one big steaming pile of fanservice. But if you just deal with it straight on, as Marsdon did, it's brilliant. Wonder Woman plays bondage games with her villains while wearing heels and hot pants because, as the gods themselves proclaim, sexy bondage games are the key to making them fulfilled human beings and citizens of the world of tomorrow. It's that simple.

Yes, most of the Justice League would consider that utterly insane. What does she care? She's Wonder Woman. Self-doubt and conformism are for losers who never put on deer costumes and allowed themselves to be hunted down, "skinned" and served up on a plate.
 
  
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