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Underground > Policy & Help >

Barbe-nice?

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:33 / 31.10.07

I was set to thinking by a discussion elsewhere about the strain and stress moderating may be taking on the moderators around here, and how that might be leading to a degree of annoyance and unhappiness. If this is indeed the case, perhaps we can consider ways to be kinder and more pleasant people.

For example, I was thinking of lists in the Spectacle fora. We have just told zedoktar off for posting a list, and yichiyon has just done... well, what he always does - posted to ask if anyone has seen product "x". Traditionally, we tell people off for doing this kind of thing, but I'm not sure if this is useful. It tends to make them unhappy, and I think we are often asking them to do something which they are simply not able to do. After all, if you look at other people not posting lists, and still post lists, you probably aren't going to be able not to post lists.

Maybe the time has come just to acknowledge that Barbelith is no longer a place where it is realistic to expect a level of Conversation regularly higher than a list of bands or films. Deleting these things out of hand is likely to cause more conflict _again_, so perhaps we should abandon the whole "don't post lists" thing and just ignore them, or respond with a list of our own if so minded.

I know it's a bit radical, but our commitment to quality in posting may be causing more friction and unhappiness than the resulting improvement in quality of discussion.

Just putting it out there. What do you think?

So,

jentacular dreams

18:33 / 31.10.07

Well I think one has to draw a bit of a dividing line between content-free posts in an ongoing thread and a content free opening post. Most regular posters have done the former, but as has been discussed before it's very hard to pull something worthwhile out of a thread where the first post demotivates people from putting any effort in.

Plus most fora have low-content threads just for these kind of posts. The stupid questions threads, what comics/books/films/music/games/socks are you currently reading/watching/listening to/playing/wearing/knitting (del as appropriate) threads etc, most content-light posts can be worded to fit within these.

What if the policy was to delete these kind of threads when they appear, with a copy of the post sent to the poster along with a link to the relevant collation thread? If they really want to discuss it they can repost it where it belongs, or start the thread again with more points to chew on.

Question: what happens to list threads on barbelith if they aren't shut down? Do other people post lists to them, as per most of the internet, or do they tend to just quietly sink down the pages? Presumably either way the poster who started such a thread wouldn't have any problems doing so next time so would 'being nice' (which presumably means leaving such threads to thrive or wither as nature sees fit) actually benefit the posters who try to make barbelith into something of a higher standard, or would it just render the place indivisible from any other fora, and alienate anyone who comes here wanting something else? It's worth pointing out that 'being nice' isn't neccessarily equivalent to having low expectations.

Maybe the time has come just to acknowledge that Barbelith is no longer a place where it is realistic to expect a level of Conversation regularly higher than a list of bands or films.

Not to go all devils advocate on you but why do you think this? What's changed? How do you reconcile that with a lot of the higher quality discussion round the board? (And to clarify, I preume you didn't mean Conversation as a proper noun?)

I would suggest that the stress of moderating is unlikely to be reduced if we do open up the board (as I believed is the eventual hope?). Might I again propose that an increase in moderator numbers might not be such a bad idea?

18:37 / 31.10.07

Maybe the time has come just to acknowledge that Barbelith is no longer a place where it is realistic to expect a level of Conversation regularly higher than a list of bands or films.

Really?

I think there are two issues here. There's the unhappiness of those who start minimal content threads which recieve moderation, and there's the frustration on the part of those who have to do the moderating, and deal with the associated fuss. I think you have to ask whether the board as a whole should care about the unhappiness of the former party - they may not be able to help it, but that doesn't make it something to be condoned while there's still hope, if not expectation, of decent conversations starting, and having a greater ratio of chaff to wheat makes it harder to respond to what's worthwhile, resulting in less and less of a chance to get a decent topic going, and more frustration for those who want to post more than list threads. I think the mods already are fairly kind and gentle (if anything too lenient IMHO) though obviously if they're collectively getting worn out dealing with this stuff then it's still a problem - not letting it get to them seems like a pat answer, but that would be my best advice for now. "just ignoring" or responding in a satirical fashion to crap threads seems to me to have a limited utility, long-term.

Not being a mod, and without the attendant stresses and strains, I hope it's not too selfish to say I'm still happy for the spiky gauntlet of mod standards to crash down on those who start shit threads. But then I don't seem to start terribly successful threads, so I might not know what I'm talking about (in terms of what's desirable), just to be fair.

ONLY NICE THINGS

19:11 / 31.10.07

Presumably either way the poster who started such a thread wouldn't have any problems doing so next time so would 'being nice' (which presumably means leaving such threads to thrive or wither as nature sees fit) actually benefit the posters who try to make barbelith into something of a higher standard, or would it just render the place indivisible from any other fora, and alienate anyone who comes here wanting something else?

Well, in terms of threads not being nonsensical, it wouldn't benefit the posters who try to make Barbelith into etc, no. It would just recognise the futility of trying either to reason with or restrict such behaviour with the powers and the board culture we currently have, not least because it saps the morale of the people who might otherwise help to create the differentiation of which you speak.

Hoom. There's a question of balance here, definitely.

Closed for Business Time

19:24 / 31.10.07

So either we, especially mods, care less in general and resign to a much higher level of entropy and void, or what? I can't process "being nice" in any other way ATM.

20:58 / 31.10.07

I can understand why somebody who's started a thread in good faith would prefer not to be told off for being oblivious or an idiot. The proposal above to move content-light material to an appropriate thread, and have a such a thread wherever one is needed, seems perfectly sound and not incompatible with a friendly, encouraging PM, nor with a continued high value placed on hardworking, thoughtful posts. If that still seems too brutal, how about if mods post suggestions that might bring up the level of the first post? Would that be too onerous or debilitating?

22:37 / 31.10.07

Um, why are we acting like this is something that people only get told off for on Barbelith? Because, y'know, it's not - you start a list thread pretty much anywhere and you're going to receive a deserved kicking for it.

It's not about mods being "nicer". It's about other people putting more effort in and realising that nobody will - or should - give a toss about their likes and dislikes if they're not prepared to spend some time expanding on them.

And Christ, we're only talking about two, three people here. At most.

23:16 / 31.10.07

I think this is not only about lists, but also the Hipster thread.

Tryphena Absent

00:02 / 01.11.07

This is an odd thread. Why do you need to tell people off for this kind of thing? We have a functional moderation system but every day it becomes clearer that none of the moderators want to use it. This is how you use a moderation system and remain a pleasant person: Shunt list threads to conversation, send a standard PM to the person who started the thread telling them there wasn't enough content, if they ask a question about it direct them to Policy and stop getting so personal about everything. It's not frustrating if you don't take it as personal.

The reason this place isn't nice, kind or gentle, the reason it's fucked up is because everything is personalised all the time. Moderation shouldn't be personalised. Guidelines exist so that people can function everyday and rely on them, tell people why behaviour isn't acceptable, make all of the janitorial jobs standardised and easy. They allow people not to get stressed out and yell because someone started a list thread. It is difficult to go over the same thing day in and day out. It's not right, it's not fair and it's detrimental to structured, textual spaces not to have anything to help people sort out what they should do. Barbelith has no guidelines and no rules, everytime we try to construct anything we get lost in semantics- how should we phrase this? What do we actually want to do but what people need is a guidebook to help them do little, complex things and make decisions, not a definition of bigotry. Our lack of rules has been making every single Barbelith moderator perform a job that is tougher, nastier and more personal than it should be. I'm not happy with that and you shouldn't be either and I've been saying this for years, is anyone actually ready to consider it as realistic or are we going to start talking about abstractions again?

09:12 / 01.11.07

what people need is a guidebook to help them do little, complex things and make decisions

Like a T&C? What sort of thing were you thinking of?

perhaps we should abandon the whole "don't post lists" thing and just ignore them

I think the difficulty is when people try and create a decent conversation out of rubbish threads. List threads tend to devolve into people saying 'don't post lists' and mockery, how are you going to stop that happening? Get everyone to agree (hah) that we should just ignore list threads and similar low quality guff and let them sink?
I don't think locking crap threads is too harsh. If we're asking people to not post lists (and similar entry-level requirements) and they are unable to manage that, maybe they should go elsewhere on the internet- it will be a blow, but I personally will shed a quiet tear and move on.

I'm wary of pandering to the lowest quality posters at the expense of the higher quality posters. If moderator fatigue is really a problem then as Tryp says tighter guidelines will make that easier- it shouldn't be a problem telling someone to post appropriately, just like it shouldn't be a problem to ban.
I think Barbelith should be moderated more severely, myself. When we see the nth iteration of the same guff it should be a simple thing to stop it. Why agonise over deleting a list thread? Is it worth being nice to people who can't stop themselves blogging their DVD collection? Screw 'em, I say, let's pander to the posters who write interesting stuff, they're the people I care about on the board, not the passing numpties.

ONLY NICE THINGS

09:38 / 01.11.07

Problems with moving threads to Conversation are twofold, I think. One - we receive complaints from Conversation moderators about the forum being used as a dumping ground. Two - we end up with parallel threads in the deedicated forum and the Conversation. However, if we're prepared to take that hit, this is a rule we can set. We come up with some standard text:

This thread has been identified by a moderator as not suitable for the forum in which it was placed. This may be because of subject matter, or treatment of subject matter. As a result, a moderator has proposed that it be moved to the conversation/locked/deleted. Please be aware when posting to this thread in the near future that it may be moved/locked/deleted.

Because moderation is not instantaneous. This will, of course, lead to accusations of moderator tyranny, which will go to Policy.

More broadly, I can see two very broad distinctors of Barbelith. One of those is creating a space which is not dedicated to a particular academic or other field but which seeks to provide a high level of discussion on a variety of subject areas. The second is creating a space which is not dedicated to a particular oppressed group but which seeks to provide an environment in which people can operate without being abused or discriminated against on the grounds of their race, gender, sexuality and so on.

I see the second of these as more valuable, and also more achievable, than the first, and I am interested in doing things that encourage people who are benefited by that, who also coincidentally tend to contribute value to the board more generally.

I do think we can find ourselves directing frustration at a situation at individuals, and also that this creates a degree of inconsistency, informed to an extent by experience. If we started being consistent, the place might turn into a bit of a shooting gallery, but it might save time spent trying to reason with or indeed shame people who are not susceptible to reason or shame.

18:02 / 01.11.07

I'm wondering how much of the strain comes from the feeling that one needs to justify certain kinds of moderation decisions - most other boards wouldn't expect a moderator to delete a thread only after ze posts a note within the thread, then write the person who started the thread to explain why, and then write *another* post in whatever administration area to explain it publicly. However brief each of those explanations is, the simple acting of clicking through that many screens is tiring.

Our software isn't naturally transparent - in fact, I think it's naturally secretive, since it relies on a kind of balloting.

23:52 / 01.11.07

We come up with some standard text:
Couldn't this be done for a number of actions? Rather than crafting a personal response, possibly based in anger, frustration, or irritation, some agreed on boilerplates could be used to respond to recurring problems or what's perceived as an infraction. I'm sure they would be disagreed with at times, but if fairly neutral language is used, with options given for response, it may work more smoothly. I think what Tryphena said:
Shunt list threads to conversation, send a standard PM to the person who started the thread telling them there wasn't enough content, if they ask a question about it direct them to Policy and stop getting so personal about everything. It's not frustrating if you don't take it as personal.

The reason this place isn't nice, kind or gentle, the reason it's fucked up is because everything is personalised all the time. Moderation shouldn't be personalised. is somewhat along the same lines, at least about trying to keep things from becoming too personal at the onset. I'm sure discussions about some matter would become so later, inevitably, but more standardized procedures seem necessary. I'm sorry, though, I'm not a mod, and I don't understand it all; I do understand that there are some procedures in place. But when I see many of the policy discussions, it appears that one of the problems is an often haphazard response to ostensibly the same infractions.
Is this a wrong way of looking at it? If someone who felt capable started writing guidelines for vetting and editing, and procedures were put in place to deal with various issues, would it make things work more smoothly? Is it possible?

I'm not sure if I should post in Policy, at least on these matters— the lack of response to my posts here tells me I should maybe just back off, which I'm okay with. I'd hate to be someone chiming in with something pointless, redundant, irrelevant, ill-conceived, or a combination of those and more. I do care, and I'm only commenting on what appears to me to be relevant (whether or not it is, I really don't know). Anyone feel free to tell me to fuck off, just do it politely, please.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:11 / 02.11.07

Well, on the specific shunt to the conversation I said:

Problems with moving threads to Conversation are twofold, I think. One - we receive complaints from Conversation moderators about the forum being used as a dumping ground. Two - we end up with parallel threads in the deedicated forum and the Conversation. However, if we're prepared to take that hit, this is a rule we can set. We come up with some standard text:

But yes, we could write up standard text. Our problems would be compiling text, agreeing on text, and implementing it as a process across the entire set of moderators. It would remove a level of consensus-seeking that is possibly not useful in minor moderations, if we agree that locking/deleting/moving threads, e.g., or deleting posts are minor moderations.

If this sounds good, we can start discussing what would be appropriate subjects for standard response, and start drafting...

Glenn Close But No Cigar

22:33 / 02.11.07

After all, if you look at other people not posting lists, and still post lists, you probably aren't going to be able not to post lists.

Sorry old thing, but this really doesn't make sense. It's the same as saying 'if you look at other people not claiming to that the moon is made of Chris Barry's anal leavings, and still claim that the moon is made of Barry's etc., you probably aren't going to be able not to claim etc.'

23:16 / 02.11.07

When will I learn to just put Medeiros Johnson on ignore?

jentacular dreams

13:11 / 03.11.07

After all, if you look at other people not posting lists, and still post lists, you probably aren't going to be able not to post lists.

Sorry old thing, but this really doesn't make sense (etc)

Might I propose "if you look at the response when other people post lists and still post lists yourself..." Ultimately the aim for high quality discussion is pretty well known in every corner of the board. Barbelith is not a list site. There are few if any list threads (though there are a lot more 'short abstract/s + link/s' threads, but these often contain discussion as well). Whenever anyone posts list threads they get a textual wrist slap and the thread doesn't last long. Why would anyone who is familiar with the board think that their list thread would be an exception?

I think a standard response is probably a good idea. Having a set of standard protocols (or at least guidelines) written out would probably reduce a lot of mod burnout. As said before, agreement and adherence might be an issue, but nothing ventured....

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:45 / 09.11.07

Another nod for standardised responses.

11:25 / 09.11.07

Yup