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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Burroughs - opinions please?

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gentleman loser

16:19 / 20.07.01

I've never read any of William S. Burroughs's work. It has always seemed to me that the man was more interesting than the stuff he created. A few days ago, I heard some right wing airhead state that "Naked
Lunch" was the "most offensive and obscene book ever written" which made me want to go out and buy a copy at once.

So, what do you say? What's the best Burroughs work to start with and is any of his stuff really worth reading?

The Return Of Rothkoid

17:48 / 20.07.01

To begin by pissing on everyone's spongecake, I have to say that I felt the same way you appear to - that Burroughs the man is more interesting that his output. And after reading The Naked Lunch and a whole chunk of the reader that Picador put out, I have to say that I'm not convinced that that's entirely wrong. I was hugely disappointed by him. But I have a feeling I may be in the minority...

18:16 / 20.07.01

quote:Originally posted by Rothkoid:
But I have a feeling I may be in the minority...

Very possibly. I think this might be one of those 'leave your preconceptions at the door' situations. Also, at lot of Burroughs ideas are v. influential, and might seem a little inconsequential if you preceded to read Morrison, Anton Wilson, Pynchon et al. All I can testify is that the 'lunch was pretty f**king mind blowing at 14 years of age. I guess it's a matter of when you encounter him...

18:17 / 20.07.01

Also, if you didn't link NL, try The Western Lands, it's a different flavour that you might appreciate more..

19:01 / 20.07.01

I wouldn't put Burroughs in my premier league of favourite authors because, well, I've never found him particularly inspiring or emotional but .. howyousay .. he makes fantastic word soup.

I love reading his stuff in the middle of night with blaring music on or something like that - reading it deliberately quickly and letting the words mix themselves up in my head prodcuing crazy associations and twisted mental images .. more prose-poetry than straight prose..

(um .. I'll just get my coat..)

Also, as has previously been pointed out, he's been hugely influential in helping the spread of the weird and subversive ideas that make our lives so enjoyable today.

DOes anyone remember that story he wrote where he traveled back in time to Mesopotamia by shagging a South AMerican native boy in some forbidden ritual and then he discovered that the whole civilization was being mind-controlled by it's priests and he somehow brought down the whole hierarchy using a camera ... or something.

Written when most SF writers were just getting to grips with the rocket engine..

23:18 / 20.07.01

Burroughs: Starts strong every time, but doesn't end well as much as he just stops what he's doing. That being asid, his 'Adding Machine,' a collection of essays on writing is incredibly useful and well written.

04:02 / 21.07.01

I find Burroughs reads best in short bursts. Hell, read Naked Lunch out of order. Pick it up, open to a random page, and read a section or two. If memory serves (I donated my copy to a friend so I can't check) he pretty much tells you to do this near the end of N.L. And if you get a chance listen to his Thanksgiving Prayer from the Dead City Radio CD.

04:36 / 21.07.01

>>To John Dillinger in hopes he is still alive
Thanksgiving Day November 28, 1986:

Thanks for the wild turkey and the passenger pigeons destined to be shit out through wholesome American guts.

Thanks for a continent to despoil and poison.

Thanks for Indians to provide a modicum of challenge and danger.

Thanks for vast herds of bison to kill and skin, leaving the carcasses to rot.

Thanks for bounties on wolves and coyotes.

Thanks for American Dream to vulgarize and falsify until the bare lie shine through.

Thanks for the KKK, for nigger killin' lawmen feelin' their notches, for decent church goin' women with their mean, pinched, bitter, evil faces

Thanks for "Kill a Queer For Christ" stickers

Thanks for laboratory AIDS

Thanks for prohibition and the war against drugs

Thanks for a country where nobody is allowed to mind his own business

Thanks for a nation of finks

Yes, thanks for all the memories: "Alright, lets see you arms"

You always were a headache and you always were a bore

Thanks for the last and greatest betrayal of the last and greatest of human dreams.<<

ynh

17:51 / 21.07.01

Does anyone have the original Saturday Night Live video clip of that? I have many many dirty things I can trade for it.

[ 21-07-2001: Message edited by: [Your Name Here] ]

20:48 / 22.07.01

The album Burroughs did with Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprsy (well, Michael Franti) has some wicked tracks if you like hip-hop.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:02 / 23.07.01

Which reminds me. The one thing of Burroughs' that I really did like was The Junky's Christmas. It's on that Disposables album (called Spare-Ass Annie and Other Tales, I think) which is indeed worth seeking out. Maybe he does work better in short bursts. Anyhow- there's also a claymation film short of this, with the music from the CD on it - it's much fun, if you can find it...

09:40 / 23.07.01

I'm pretty sure the claymation Junkie's Christmas we recently re-released on DVD. No idea where you'd find it though.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:40 / 23.07.01

Iinteresting: according to IMDB, the vid was produced by Francis Ford Coppola. Hmm.

Amazon (UK) have the videotape on sale here for £7, if you're interested. I couldn't find a DVD version, though.

uncle retrospective

09:40 / 23.07.01

If you looking for a burroughs book read Junkie. It's really good in a pick it up and finnish before up put it down again kind of way.

Wont put up for smack but will make you worry about your drinking.

10:18 / 23.07.01

quote: It has always seemed to me that the man was more interesting than the stuff he created.

Not in the least. The media persona of Burrough's is inconsequential next to his writing. Read "The Place of Dead Roads" (his cowboy novel), "Cities of Red Night" (his occult detective/pirate novel), and "The Western Lands" (his egyptian book of the dead novel). All three of these are fairly accesible and show his ideas in a further developed state than what you might find in Naked Lunch.

Naked Lunch has some great surrealist set pieces and some interesting ideas, but the later trilogy (listed above) are more like proper novels than Lunch which is more a series of thematically linked sketches or short stories.

z3r0

14:01 / 23.07.01

Always suspect the wisdom of someone who accidentaly killed his own wife while playing "William Tell".

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:18 / 23.07.01

Oh please. If we judged authors on the basis of their personal lives, none of the decent ones would be deemed worth reading...

z3r0

14:33 / 30.07.01

quote: Always suspect the wisdom of someone who accidentaly killed his own wife while playing "William Tell".
I maintain it. What was he, stupid? Since I mentioned wisdom, let me add FUCKING COMMON SENSE to the list.
Gullible prick, [I]orgone[/B] researcher my ass.

z3r0

14:35 / 30.07.01

Oops. Don't read any of my books, kids, I can't even use UBB Coding

Jamieon

14:49 / 30.07.01

Yes.

Common sense and the ability to not shoot one's wife in the head are absolute prerequisites of good writing.

z3r0

15:56 / 30.07.01

c'mon kids, you know what I mean.

Jamieon

16:01 / 30.07.01

No, I don't.

16:39 / 30.07.01

He also cut off the tip of his pinkie finger and mailed it to his gay ex-lover if I remember correctly. And thats just fuckin cool.

09:22 / 31.07.01

And can I note, like I did in some SCUM thread, that the FIRST thing anyone says about Valerie Solanas is that she shot a man; the last thing anyone says about Burroughs is, oh, and he shot his wife. But that doesn't make him a raving misogynist idiot or invalidate his ideas, no, it just suggests maybe - let's argue about it - he lacks common sense.

09:22 / 31.07.01

I think it suggests he was absolutely rat arsed.

Do bear in mind that he did spent many years being very upset about the shooting incident.

10:45 / 31.07.01

And Val spent many years in a psychiatric ward; Burroughs skipped the country with his parents money, churning out misogynistic novels snapped up by trendy young idiots for decades to come.

Note that I actually quite like Burroughs writing, but this still annoys me. Shoot a woman: so? Shoot a man: OH MY GOD SHE SHOT A MAN!!!

z3r0

11:01 / 31.07.01

Ok, Jamieon, here we go:
Posted by me:
quote: Always suspect the wisdom of someone who accidentaly killed his own wife while playing "William Tell".
Read my post again. In any moment I mention his WORK? No. I'm talking about the person. Because whenever I see Burroughs receiving that kind of treatment like he was some sort of illuminated guru, I usually react like that. See the man's life, you'll get to know him. Again, NOT - HIS - WORK.
I'm guilty of posting that comment, because the thread obviously was dealing with his works, only.
Jackie Nothing special got it right. I was talking about him.
I even like his writings, some of them.
M'kayy??

11:35 / 31.07.01

I agree with you on the Solanis thing. The fact that he shot his wife is often the last thing people mention in discussions of Burrough's, if at all, whereas it's the first thing people mention when Solanis's name comes up. It's not good.

But I can't help playing devils advocate and suggesting that at least some of the reason for this might be that Burrough's shot his wife long before he ever had literary success, whereas Solanis actually entered the public eye as the person who shot Andy Warhol. That's what she's famous for. They didnt make a film called "I wrote the S.C.U.M Manifesto" did they.

Whereas Burroughs became famous for writing Naked Lunch which got banned for a bit, and he was tied into the whole media circus of the Beat Generation.

Would the S.C.U.M Manifesto have anywhere near the same fame and notoriety if Solanis
hadn't been catapulted into the public eye after shooting Warhol?

Would Naked Lunch have anywhere near the same fame and notoriety if Burroughs hadnt shot his wife?

Basically the way I see it is that Burroughs is famous for writing some weird books, oh, and he shot his wife didnt he. Whereas Solanis is famous for shooting Andy Warhol, oh, and she wrote that weird manifesto thing as well didnt she.

If Burroughs had shot Andy Warhol in an ill judged William Tell act, then I dare say this would be the first thing that people would mention when his name comes up.

I would say it's more to do with how famous the person on the other end of the bullet was, than it is to do with their gender.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Ghost Doctor ]

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:42 / 31.07.01

quote:Originally posted by Jackie Nothing Special:
Note that I actually quite like Burroughs writing, but this still annoys me. Shoot a woman: so? Shoot a man: OH MY GOD SHE SHOT A MAN!!!

I'm sure you're on to something here. Burroughs shoots his wife "by accident", and it's indulged because, well okay he was crazy, but isn't what a great (male) artist is supposed to be, a little bit crazy, a little bit bad, lad di da. And besides, she was probably spilling coffee on his manuscripts and getting in his way, in the way that those pesky stupid women who JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND do to all great (male) writers.

Valerie Solanas on the other hand is seen as a crazy dangerous threat to society, shooting a great (male) artist because he didn't pay enough attention to her stuff that was probably rubbish cos it was written by a hysterical crazy woman and girls smell funny. In other words, she just becomes a footnote in the life of a g.m.a. in exactly the same way that Bill's wife does...

Jamieon

12:00 / 31.07.01

Zero, I'm not sure that, by reducing Burroughs to 'wife killer', you're really saying anything - that is to say, it's shaky ground to base any real character assessment on, and, I would add, a clumsy way to judge the emotional/intellectual worth of his transmissions.

I've read a great deal about the man's life (you sound as though you assume I haven't, but what you base this assumption on I have no idea), and his gullibility? Well, let's just say I enjoy the plasticity of Burroughs' mind - it's not necessarily the content that's important, but the context; which, in this case, takes the shape of a neophilic awareness, always ready to embrace the "new", the "strange", the "different". Burroughs' mind is open where others are closed.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Jamieon ]

12:00 / 31.07.01

Nah, I still dont accept it.

The media first became interested in Solanis because she shot someone who was very famous, it's a footnote that she was also a writer.

The media is primarily interested in Burroughs because he was a part of the very marketable Beat Generation, it's a footnote that he also shot his wife.

Regardless of the literary merit of the S.C.U.M Manifesto, chances are it wouldnt have got anywhere near the level of attention it's recieved if Solanis hadnt taken a shot at a high profile media figure.

I'm not saying this is a good or acceptable thing, but I certainly dont think you can reduce the situation to "He shot a woman and nobody cared, but she shot a man and that's all they ever mention". She shot Andy Warhol. They made a film about it. People are more interested in that sort of thing than they are in books, anyones books.

12:31 / 31.07.01

Ghost, I wasn't trying to reduce it to a shoot a woman/shoot a man thing, I was trying to suggest gender has Something to do with what we're talking about. Surely even if I accept what you're saying, the next question is okay, why is Burroughs a famous writer and Solanas not? And the answer, it seems to me obviously, is that he was a rich guy with the right family and connections and she was a poor woman who tended to burn her bridges (not to mention Flyboy's point about the gendering of artistic craziness - name one famous mentally ill woman artist, anyone?* - which comes back to why nobody gives a shit that he shot someone).

* - depression doesn't count. It's got to be sexy-crazy, like Van Gogh or Artaud etc.

[ 31-07-2001: Message edited by: Jackie Nothing Special ]

z3r0

14:26 / 31.07.01

By Jamieon:
quote: Zero, I'm not sure that, by reducing Burroughs to 'wife killer', you're really saying anything
That was just a bile-venting commentary on an aspect of his life. By no means I would reduce him to just that.
To a personal level, I have to say I still think that playing William Tell with a loaded gun bespeaks for a LOT of stupidity. Of course it doesn't necessarily reflect in his work.
Which reminds me, I enjoy the works of people widely known for being mentally deranged, that's not what I'm talking about. Sorry for insisting in this one, but the guy was just stupid or abnormally irresponsible.
quote: I've read a great deal about the man's life (you sound as though you assume I haven't, but what you base this assumption on I have no idea)
If I sounded like this, I apologize. That was not the intention. I have read only The Naked Lunch from him, and I quite liked. (And in Portuguese, which is like, another book completely).
quote: Well, let's just say I enjoy the plasticity of Burroughs' mind

Now this is a lovely way of putting it. But I should stop here before it gets worse.
This is just so off-topic that now I really feel guilty.

Jamieon

15:57 / 31.07.01

Fair enough.

16:31 / 31.07.01

First of all, Burroughs shot his wife when both of them were piss drunk off their asses. They were also surrounded by other people which kind of makes you realize that it wasn't intentional.

Why is Burroughs a famous writer and Solanas isn't? Well, it's probably because Solana wrote only one thing in her life that she got published. The SCUM manifesto. and she's famous for it in feminist circles. Burroughs wrote A LOT of work and he's only famous in some circles. The average person doesn't know who Burroughs and Solanas are.

And Burroughs didn't come from a "rich" family. He came from a high middle-class family but they weren't "rich" and they didn't have "connections".

Why don't I care that Burroughs shot his wife? Because it was an accident. Why do others care that Solanas shot Andy Warhol? Because it wasn't an accident. Personally I don't care that she shot him.

Why are you making this into a gender related issue?

What would you call a film about Burroughs shooting his wife? I shot my wife by accident 10 years before I got my work published?

Oh, and were do you get the idea that Burroughs was mentally deranged?

And don't forget that it takes two to do a "William Tell Routine".

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