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The philosophical value of faith?

 
  

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Opheliac
12:20 / 25.10.07
If philosophy is concerned with reason and evidence, and faith is concerned with inspiration and revelation, what then? Does the concept of 'faith' have any philosophical value? Or even, is faith rational?

As far as my knowledge goes, there are three main views on this question:

1) Faith as underlying rationality, i.e. all human knowledge is dependent on faith - faith in the senses (note Descartes' contribution to this debate, including his supposedly rational justification in the belief of God), faith in our memories, even faith in our reason.

2) Faith as addressing issues beyond the scope of rationality - issues that reason and/or science cannot explain.

3) Faith as contradicting reality - faith gets in the way of our rationality, interfering with our ability to think, and vice versa.


I'm far from an expert on this area, so I'd like to know what you guys think. All thoughts and theories are appreciated.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:36 / 25.10.07
Well, you've stacked the deck with your definitions, haven't you? If philosophy is concerned with reason and evidence, and faith is concerned with inspiration and revelation, then of course the concept of "faith" has no philosophical value. It's a valid point, even if it smacks a little of circular reasoning.

Does that mean that faith is without value, full stop? I would argue no. A nose is not an eye; it has no value for seeing. But it is nonetheless useful, perceiving and interpreting the world in its own way. Different means, different ends.

The trouble arises, of course, when you try to use an eye as a nose, or vice versa.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
12:41 / 25.10.07
I don't think of faith as rational. I also don't think that's a bad thing.

I view them as complements, one no better than the other, but in some cases, one can be easier or more appropriate to answer a question than another.

For instance, I don't believe that science can never answer any questions about the existence of God, like it's off limits or beyond the scope of reason. I just think that it's going to take a lot longer to answer any meaningful question about God using science, and in the end it might only turn out to justify things we believed all along.

Or just that they're trying to answer different questions in the first place. Even if science can explain how God's powers work, or whatever, will that tell us why he does what he does (or what we should be doing?)

Usually people who argue for one being superior to the other seem, to me, to be not understanding the one they're arguing against very well, and sort of attacking straw men.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:06 / 25.10.07
Do we mean religious faith - in any of its variations - or do we mean having faith in something for which there is no data but at a best guess is probably true (i.e. that the postman will probably post the letters, that when I go to work the building will still be there, etc)?
 
 
Opheliac
07:56 / 26.10.07
I don't mind discussing either, but I'm more interested primarily in religious faith (Christian or otherwise).
 
 
Quantum
08:02 / 26.10.07
BlatantBlithe, you seem to be equating Philosophy with scientific rationality and Faith with religious faith there. Is that intentional? Seems like a rehash of the science vs religion debate.
http://sciencevsreligion.net/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sci_rel.htm
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1555132,00.html

Is faith rational? No, because it precedes reason- you have faith in reason, you believe it will give you new accurate knowledge. If you'll excuse the pun, faith is more fundamental than reason.
 
 
Quantum
08:03 / 26.10.07
x-post. I'm more interested primarily in religious faith

Faith as faith in the existence of Jehovah? Fair enough.
 
 
el d.
10:58 / 26.10.07
He said Jehovah! Stone him!

(taken from Monty Python´s Life of Brian )

Aaaand that sums up quite a lot about faith. Need I say more?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:02 / 26.10.07
That depends. Do you want Barbelith's Head Shop to be a place for intelligent and nuanced critical debate?
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:37 / 26.10.07
Well, you might try to argue that the humour in Life of Brian rests on an astute critique of organised religion - the Jesuits that wanted to teach me about religion certainly felt that this was the case, since I got to watch the film during religious education lessons - but that is probably beside the point. This thread is a mess and at least as deserving of a move to the convo as the hipster thread.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:56 / 26.10.07
...you might try to argue that the humour in Life of Brian rests on an astute critique of organised religion...

You'd be wrong, though, because the religious element of the film—although certainly the most sensational element in it—is, on reconsideration, pretty minimal; the major comic thrust, I'd say, is at the fractious nature of Leftist politics.

But yeah, Convo. Sorry, guys. I tried, I really did.
 
 
Quantum
12:24 / 26.10.07
Proposed.
 
 
el d.
13:14 / 26.10.07
Actually, the point implied by citing that pelicular piece of reference was to be about the nature of faith. The significance of that specific video is, in my humble opinion, that religious faith (monotheistic, as implied above) tends to forbid and chastise questioning and critical thought. The social consensus on this is quite broad: Religion is considered to be exempt from critique.

Which, as said before, is the basic difference to philosophy.

Unfortunately, my post triggered the move of this thread. I profoundly apologise and propose a further discussion of this topic. My jibe was apparently unnecessary and inflammatory, although intended as an argument with pun included.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 26.10.07
Can I start moving to ban people for douching in the Head Shop, pls? It's getting all over the floor.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:29 / 26.10.07
If philosophy is concerned with reason and evidence, and faith is concerned with inspiration and revelation, what then? Does the concept of 'faith' have any philosophical value? Or even, is faith rational?

The mistake here was with the revelation that faith was to be taken in a religious context. At the most basic level faith is a philosophical concept-

My feet stick to the floor meaning that I walk rather than float. I have faith that my feet will always stick to the floor because they always have and so my faith is dictated by reason and simple evidence. This aspect of my faith is then philosophical and rational. Science and philosophy often begin by examining what we have faith in.
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:53 / 26.10.07
I think it might also be possible to reasonably examine the evidence for effects of faith. Do people who report faith as an important component of their emotional/spiritual lives have markedly different outcomes in any particular tests? Could the experience of faith be correlated with a secure emotional attachment style, for example? Could it be shown whether people who report faith as important to them make progress over time in emotional health, for example reporting more satisfying interpersonal interactions or a greater preponderance of preferred emotional states?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:04 / 26.10.07
Those are all good points, apt plutology, but they smack more of Lab-material than Headshop wares, simply because there's a rather large sociological and psychological literature where faith is the independent variable.
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 26.10.07
Religion is considered to be exempt from critique.

Maybe on your planet. Not on Earth though.
Try reading about theology for five seconds and see if that affects your opinion.
Here, I'll make it easy-
Theology is reasoned discourse about God or the gods, or more generally about religion or spirituality.

Theologians use various forms of analysis and argument (philosophical, ethnographic, historical) to help understand, explain, test, critique, defend or promote any of a myriad of religious topics.


See that word 'critique' there?
 
 
Quantum
14:27 / 26.10.07
My jibe was apparently unnecessary and inflammatory

It wasn't a jibe, it wasn't inflammatory, just a crap post.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:40 / 26.10.07
I think it might also be possible to reasonably examine the evidence for effects of faith. Do people who report faith as an important component of their emotional/spiritual lives have markedly different outcomes in any particular tests?

Would Fred Phelps tickle a crocodile? Would the Pope go swimming in shark-infested waters? Probably not. These situations are easy to interpret because you have, usually, all the evidence there. Whereas abstract philosophical ideas are harder for us, for all of us, to work through, whether or not we have faith in any sense.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:42 / 26.10.07
Which post, if snappy, was meant to nip in the bud any appearance (not from yourself) of the idea that the religious are somehow stupider (which is not helpful, unlike the idea that religious ideas are unheplful, whichi s itself helpful).
 
 
Quantum
14:47 / 26.10.07
religious ideas are unheplful, which is itself helpful

Care to defend that? Which religious ideas are you referring to?
 
 
Quantum
14:49 / 26.10.07
Some religious ideas are silly, obvs.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:11 / 26.10.07
Yup, I wanted to put 'some', but I also wanted to get the edit in before my two minutes was up, sorry about that.

Just to take up a point. Upthread the poster says:

(...) The social consensus on this is quite broad: Religion is considered to be exempt from critique.

Which, as said before, is the basic difference to philosophy.

Unfortunately, my post triggered the move of this thread. I profoundly apologise and propose a further discussion of this topic. My jibe was apparently unnecessary and inflammatory, although intended as an argument with pun included.


See, this is quite a common statement by Internet Atheists, which I think is why some of the frustation here might be appearing. As, I suppose, an Internet atheist myself, I just wonder why certain people criticising religion (and this doesn't neccesarily apply to Evader as I'm still making mym ind up) consider themselves to be "allowed to be tricksy" - arguments with puns included, and that sort of thing, statements which are 'actually jokes' but it's understandable if some people find the faiths they cling to offended, statements which of course are only apparently unnecesary - even though they're talking about something of deathly importance.

Whereas if one was to find something of similar ambiguity in, say, the Bible or the Koran, and one was told by a beleiver in this or that religion that the statement was not meant to be taken literally - that there was an attendant intelligence of reading assumed by the writer - that beleiver would tend to be laughed at and called a 'moderate hypocrite' or some such.

Isn't there some kind of equivalence, between a Dawkins type making a sweeping statement about all the followers of religion X being stupid idiots who are trying to destroy our civilization, and then backtracking and saying it can't possibly be racist, it's not his fault if the BNP interpret it as such and are 'legitimised' by it; and those who say that the religious texts, most complete with the warlike injunctions one would expect from the period, are meant to be followed with intelligence and critical thinking, and that those who start crusades are not good representatives of the religion?
 
 
Saturn's nod
15:31 / 26.10.07
I don't see an equivalence there: to me Dawkins has been caught out making ridiculous inaccurate generalisations in an age and culture where we expect a better precision in use of language. The critical readings of scripture - hermeneutics of suspicion and all that - that I have been taught in my church and engage in with others, take into account instead the historical and cultural context of the scripture, as far as it's possible to find it, in which for example hyperbole might be commonly employed in discussion. Metaphors are rife in scripture and I don't tend to get called a hypocrite for saying so - I think you may be thinking either of the kind of extreme sect that I don't have any experience of, or of some imaginary model of religion.

I expect better of someone like Dawkins in the present day in our culture who claims to be a scientist than to use such hyperbole and inaccurate generalisations.

... they smack more of Lab-material than Headshop wares, simply because there's a rather large sociological and psychological literature where faith is the independent variable.

Science has its origin in Western Europe from Natural Philosophy, formerly Natural Theology. Doesn't philosophy aim to be rigourous and as such surely ought to allow for investigation of relationships? Are you trying to dismiss those points because they could be subject to investigation? I think I haven't yet seen your point in making that comment to this discussion.

I can see great advantage in evaluation of faith based on its contribution to well-being: I see scripture and religious tradition as records of various humans' experiences and their best attempts to explain them, given the context and language they had available. Given that we seem to have some kind of spiritual capacity, perhaps a secure attachment to some kind of internalised benevolence makes for functional humans, no matter what the origin of the experienced benevolence is. Perhaps that capacity previously seemed mystical, before the mechanisms and significance of human emotional attachment appeared as abstractions?

I think the kind of faith that allows a person to face the upheavals and challenges of existence with a calm and generous attitude could certainly be argued to be rational, and the existence of such a thing could be measured, given the advances in the last century in understanding of human emotions and attachments and so on.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:49 / 26.10.07
What does green smell like?

How does hydrogen sulfide look?
 
 
Saturn's nod
16:18 / 26.10.07
What does green smell like?

Depends what green, doesn't it?

How does hydrogen sulfide look?

I'm not brilliant on molecular orbitals but I think the sulphur atom's going to be linear with two covalent bonds, so isn't that like sp hybridisation? There's a picture on this page - in the section under simple hydrocarbons where it says sulphur can have linear or hexavalent geometries - of a linear form with the sulphur having two lone pairs, and those structures are usually verified by magnetic resonance and mechanism studies as far as I know, although it's also possible to calculate the molecular orbitals - someone with more chemistry that I know would be able to say more.

Is this offtopic, or am I being over-literal again?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:31 / 26.10.07
Over-literal. I think that Jack's point was that some questions cannot meaningfully reveal anything their subject matter because they miss the point.

God forbid that I ever agree with Jack about anything, of course, but he might be right that there probably isn't very much to be gained by interrogating faith through a battery of tests. Not to say you shouldn't try, I suppose.
 
 
Saturn's nod
16:45 / 26.10.07
I guess I'm fascinated by tech-of-the-human-mind. I think there might be a great deal to gain if we were able to uncover robust mechanisms for human beings to achieve high levels of emotional competence and resilience, for example.

I should clarify, although it's probably obvious - I don't make much distinction between successful internalisation of a reliable parent and successful internalisation of a benevolent power in the world or indeed succesful internalisation following experiences of a reliably benevolent flying spaghetti monster. Umm, internalisation meaning being able to be emotionally rely on the existence of a thing even in its apparent absence.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:50 / 26.10.07
Well, not exactly. I was responding to the notion that "religion is considered exempt from critique"—critique, that is, using the criteria of natural philosophy—or "you can examine the evidence for the effects of faith"—meaning, of course, the empirical, scientific evidence.

And yeah, you can do those things, but I would suggest that your results will be flawed because you're using the wrong tools—like trying to use a nose to see, or an eye to smell.

When you view scientific phenomena using the toolset of religious faith, you get howling nonsense like Young Earth creationism. Similarly, when you apply the scientific method to questions like, "What is my purpose in life?" you get Richard Dawkins throwing up his hands and saying, "That is not a question worth asking." Which, I would assert, is also howling nonsense.

Different ends, different means.

This is nothing I haven't said a million zillion times before.
 
 
HCE
16:51 / 26.10.07
But emotional competence isn't universal -- which is a sign of greater emotional competence, reacting to a feeling of being threatened with ferocity or with great restraint?

Sorry - reply to apt, there.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:55 / 26.10.07
Christ bore the torments of the cross-posting for sinful humankind.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
19:01 / 26.10.07
I was just trying to answer your question, ap. There is a large body of scientific literature where the degree (and nature) of faith is an independent variable regarding for example mental health, economic status etc.

I'm not sure why you're objecting to that.
 
 
el d.
10:06 / 27.10.07
"you're using the wrong tools—like trying to use a nose to see, or an eye to smell"
Jack Fear

This is interesting, because it sums up a quite popular argument, my point exactly: Faith (as in JHWH) is something beyond our senses, so our senses should not be used to question it.

But still, we are able to do so. We can examine faith in socioeconomic terms. And the results we get aren´t all that favourable. (Keywords: Dark Ages, Condom Use, Sharia)

Of course, all of that is irrelevant, surely, when talking about individual faith? Or isn´t it?

It´s just one small step to go from "I believe in God" to "I believe that everyone who doesn´t believe in my God will go to hell". (JHWHW faith, there.) Individual faith is seldomly restricted to the realms of the individual, but also influences the decisions on more "wordly" matters. Such as the right to life, the duty to turn the other cheek and the joy of being a good samaritan. I think all of these aspects of human life should be judged after actually examining the subject (impacts, causes, relations etc.) and a faith-based decision will most probably, per definitionem, not do that.

Thank you for reading, I´ll go hide again.
 
 
Saturn's nod
10:29 / 27.10.07
KB:... which is a sign of greater emotional competence, reacting to a feeling of being threatened with ferocity or with great restraint?

I think that's going to depend a lot. If it's a feeling of threat occasioned by, say, irrational thoughts and habits belonging to a previous context, then probably restraint. In other situations, other responses. Couldn't it be argued that emotional competence means an appropriate response? I wonder whether there can be found anything in common in the way people who have a secure attachment style respond to stressful situations?

I realize that my model of what appropriate behaviour looks like is heavily shaped by my own religious context: Jesus advocating giving also the shirt when sued for the coat, putting any observers and thus the prosecutor to shame by making them witness nakedness in an unjust lawsuit; Jesus advocating walking an extra mile with a soldier's pack in an occupied territory, putting the soldier on the wrong side of the military regulations and so on (cf Matthew 5 38-42 & for exposition of the context, Walter Wink's 'Powers' books). There, the response to oppression is transformative rather than violent: same principle as used in the Gandhian movement in S. Asia.

I think it's pretty common that we find those kinds of indications in our various scriptures and hero narratives? The discussion of what 'good' looks like seems to be really important in religious texts & certainly in my own discussions in faith community. I think that's a common thing: for example, the recording of lives of saints - people picked out as having embodied a particularly high standard of 'goodness'?

FN:There is a large body of scientific literature where the degree (and nature) of faith is an independent variable regarding for example mental health, economic status etc.

Well, the way it comes across to me is, you've written the same thing twice now without providing any useful or interesting information. If you'd summarized, linked to or reviewed any of those studies, I could see the point in you posting that. I think I am unused to people expecting that their unsupported claim for the existence of a thing be a point in itself. The first time you posted that, your words "but they smack more of Lab-material than Headshop wares," made me think you were saying those studies were somehow not relevant to this discussion - which seemed odd to me especially because the thread's not in Headshop and wasn't when I first posted in it up there. That was why I was making the point that I don't see any reason to divide different kinds of investigation, because philosophy and sciences in UK academic culture have the same root - I hope it's clearer what I meant? I'm still fairly much in the dark about what your point was, but perhaps I am failing to read what is of crystal clarity to all the other readers and should retire gracefully from the discussion.

E-A: I think all of these aspects of human life should be judged after actually examining the subject (impacts, causes, relations etc.) and a faith-based decision will most probably, per definitionem, not do that.

I think broad considerations should ideally be taken into account, and that any holy power expects us to use the best of our minds to engage with them. Faith for me is about helping me mind the larger context - not just 'what is convenient?' but 'what is holy?'/ 'what is of eternal value?'. It's an attempt to learn from the history and live in the light of what I hold to be most valuable, using all the resources at my command including reason. I guess that's the opposite kind of faith to yours?
 
  

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