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Magical Orders

 
  

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Closed for Business Time
12:26 / 25.10.07
BUT, Wolfangel777, you're not answering the charge of over-generalisation. You're still setting up an argument saying

"All religious structures are abusive/evil.
Magical orders are like religious structures.
Hence, all magical orders are abusive/evil."

A lot of people will have issues with that. The main one being that you generalise from your own experiences to everyone else's.
 
 
Quantum
12:26 / 25.10.07
Can anybody here argue in favour of the big magical order?

I can see theoretical advantages- a larger pool of knowledge and experience to draw on, a larger core active membership to keep it lively, the benefits of a community etc. but I'm not sure how much of that actually occurs.
 
 
Quantum
12:31 / 25.10.07
(takes wolfangel off 'Ignore' for a moment)

If not raping peoples bodies raping there minds instead with drivel and shite.

YOU ARE RAPING MY MIND WITH DRIVEL AND SHITE SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP YOU ARE PROJECTING YOUR OWN DEMONS ONTO EXTERNAL THINGS VICARS AREN'T ALL BABYRAPERS SHUTUP!

(back on ignore, what a mistake, NOTE TO SELF just don't look)
 
 
illmatic
12:50 / 25.10.07
(Much how I feel Quants. Time to use the ignore button).
 
 
electric monk
13:30 / 25.10.07
I am not going to shut up about it until all those so called spiritual people (arseholes) are held accountable for their actions, without hiding under the cloak of their spiritual beliefs. If need be i will start the removal personally myself one piece of shit at a time.

Wolfangel, while I respect you and your need to work through the issues in your life, I think you need to realize that the way you are conducting yourself in this space is unacceptable. The generalizations and straw men you are setting up for the knock down are of no use to anyone else, and degrade the conversation instead of adding to it. Please reconsider your current approach to this thread and either contribute constructively or stay out altogether. If you feel the need to continue on as you have regarding this subject, I urge you to do it somewhere that isn't here. Your personal journal would probably be best.

I don't want to have to put future posts from you in this thread up for deletion.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:58 / 25.10.07
Yeah i will keep quiet, i will not say a word.
 
 
Ichtos
20:44 / 25.10.07
I belong to a Golden Dawn Temple in Seattle, which I presume qualifies as a 'magical order'.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's been very valuable for me to be able to work and discuss magical paradigms with like-minded people. There is only so much you can do over the internet. IMHO, it's a very different experience to talk with people you actually do ritual with.

Also, for me, it provides the necessary kick in the butt to plow through the materials and get to the next degree. There is a lot to learn in the traditional GD curriculum and it's nice to work with fellow students - sort of like the difference between regular college and correspondence courses.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
05:17 / 26.10.07
Wolfangel, it sounds like you're going through a really bad patch. I know you try really hard to make positive contributions to the board even when you're not doing well yourself. I have to tell you though that the way you're conducting yourself right now is not okay. You're making some very big generalisations and saying some very, very hurtful and offensive things without backing them up.

I think it would be a really good idea for you to take a bit of a break and come back when you're in a better place, maybe in a few weeks. Take care.
 
 
illmatic
05:50 / 26.10.07
Thanks for your answer, Ichtos.

There is only so much you can do over the internet.

Absolutely agreed. It might come over in this thread that I'm critical of the concept of "magical orders" but I think fraternity/sorority is vital - being able to share ideas and experience in a social context is vital. It's the thing I've learnt most from, more than any books.

How would you respond to some of the points Nolte raises above? Do they tally with your experience or not? Also, and it's totally up to you how private you want to be, what kind of work and study are you encouraged to do?
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:03 / 26.10.07
Apologies to all concerned, my brain has been frying in its own demons as quantum put it, pretty badly as it goes.

Writing it here actually put it in context, but it probably is a better idea to write it down in a private space, thou that said the feedback brought me to my senses.

Yeah a few weeks off is a good idea.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:33 / 26.10.07
Good to see we helped you to get some perspective, Wolfangel777. How about you take some time off the board and come back with a post or three that lays out how you think about and/or experience social-spiritual structures and organisations versus individual freedom, preferrably without using the words "kill" and "rape"? It's OK to be angry, hurt, sad etc, but there are ways of communicating those emotions and their attendant experiences, memories etc that do not alienate, confuse and hurt other posters. Not generalising from own to others' situations is a must in that regard. What that does is diminish the worth of your contributions, and thus your presence on the board, at the same time as making the Temple a less productive and constructive place, both for you and us.

Carry on, folks.
 
 
electric monk
11:27 / 26.10.07
Wolfangel, thank you. You'll be in my thoughts.
 
 
Ichtos
19:50 / 29.10.07
> How would you respond to some of the points Nolte raises above?

The Golden Dawn is fairly hierarchical, the best way I can describe it is a 1890's view of how a university curriculum in magic would look - complete with exercises, exams and regular 'graduations' (initiations).

I don't think anyone uses that to judge other peoples spiritual worth, although it's possible I'm just oblivious to it. It's more a way to state their level of knowledge and the work they have put into that, just like a freshman vs. a more senior student. The difference is about what exams they have passed, not their intelligence or personal worth.

Since there is an element of teaching to all degrees beyond Zelator, most people are both teachers and students. IMHO, teaching is almost always a great learning experience.

> What kind of work and study are you encouraged to do?

Golden Dawn is a lot of work.

The full Adeptus Minor curriculum, includes a basic understanding of Hebrew, Greek, Latin and Enochian. It covers Kabbalah pretty thourougly, gematria, divination, tarot, elemental and planetary workings, angel (and qlippoth) hierarchies, projection, alchemy (both theoretical and practical) etc. Basically a solid foundation - what you'd expect from a university degree in magic.

There is an emphasis on daily practices specific to the degrees - typically 45-60 min. per day. There are also meditations, spiritual exercises, alchemical experiments and tools construction, so the investment is probably about 1 1/2 hour a day for 2-4 years to get to Adeptus Minor, which is the final degree in the first order.

The second order is, you guessed it, graduate work. The idea being that each adept chooses a specialty and presents a new body of work that adds significant new discoveries (uncoveries) to the world of magic.

I'm not suggesting this would work for everybody, but I've grown fond of this level of structure.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
19:29 / 30.10.07
Returning to Roy's original point at the start of this discussion, I would posit the the point that magickal orders have a relevance insofar that systems of learning have relevance because they present material that promotes thinking outside the conceptual framework that one would naturally find oneself in, and colour further thinking with personal bias (predicated on self reinforcing belief systems).

It's all well and good creating your own magickal framework however if you're deliberately adopting something you don't understand and follow it through the result is 'expansive' of the self - whether you end up adopting the practice or rejecting it, at least you have been taken outside the possibility of simply pandering to current personal patterns.

'Spirituality' appears to me to always be a shifting of perceptual perspective (rather than a 'hey aliens made us yo!') in that you do not know where you are until you are somewhere else and can look back without being effected by where you were.

Crowley dealt with deity work much different than some here in the sense that if you hate the police you deliberately join the police and actually investigate it. If you just investigate one deity then how would you know you are not simply following an 'unconscious' prejudice or pandering to an aspect that requires fantastical scaffolding to maintain mental coherency?

Some posters here diss concepts of enlightenment however I am extremely skeptical about formulating how I wish to conduct my magick for myself, or for others, without the critical mentality brought about by knowing thy fucking self and challenging my perspective.
 
  

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