BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The Guru

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
Papess
10:56 / 05.10.07
You are getting enlightenment, and being a guru mixed up, Trampetunia. Enlightenment is required of the guru, but being a guru is not required.

The bible I have a difficult time trusting, as I don't think it is as accurate a record. Is that exactly what Jesus said?

So He said to them, ‘You rightly say that I am’”

He was telling them what they said. I question what is exactly meant by the use of "rightly".

Trampetunia, there may be some instances where someone may say that they are enlightened, it's possible. Sure. Hey, I am enlightened. Now would you be my student? I am not actually asking you to, but just think about that. How does that make you feel? Are you more inclined to believe me now that I have stated that, or less? Would you feel more inclined to follow me, or less? Just because J or B maybe made statements about their attainment, doesn't mean the same rules should apply today, with the current systems, and social structure we have in place today.

A word on enlightenment: There are various stages of enlightenment. Four, sometimes ten stages are outlined. There is a difference between full realization and having attainment.

It seems that if you realise you are enlightened, you can say it, because you are just expressing an experience you have/have had.

Enlightenment is not an experience, it is a state of being.

If an enlightened person could never say they were enlightened, then enlightenment would be decided by other people,

Enlightenment is not decided by others. Being a guru is.

... and how would they know if someone was enlightened unless they were enlightened themselves?!

That is a good question. There are signs. But it shouldn't matter really if someone is enlightened or not, unless you want to be their student. You can tell when someone has an incredible amount of patience, is very humble, has no attachment or clinging, then the state of mind of a person becomes more apparent. Just like one would spend time to learn about their spouse before committing (in western culture), so one should also spend time with a prospective guru to get a sense of his or her mind.
 
 
petunia
17:30 / 05.10.07
You are getting enlightenment, and being a guru mixed up, Trampetunia.

Maybe. But what i was trying to get at was the statement you made that Thus saying you are realised, or enlightened, is grasping and therefore, not enlightened! I was trying to show that this formulation doesn't seem necessary - many enlightened people throughout history have said they are such.

The quotation you make from the diamond sutra is out of context - the buddha and subhuti are talking about the fact that an enlightened being will not think 'enlightenment is mine'. They point out that, as there is no enlightened being, it cannot possess anything. This does not preclude an enlightened being being aware of enlightenment, nor does it mean the being cannot say it.

Sure. Hey, I am enlightened. Now would you be my student? I am not actually asking you to, but just think about that. How does that make you feel? Are you more inclined to believe me now that I have stated that, or less? Would you feel more inclined to follow me, or less? Just because J or B maybe made statements about their attainment, doesn't mean the same rules should apply today, with the current systems, and social structure we have in place today.

I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Could you explain?

There are various stages of enlightenment.

Yes, i am aware of this. As far as i have heard, enlightenment is a continually deepening process without end. This is why, coincidentally, i am suspicious of people who claim to be perfect.

Enlightenment is not an experience, it is a state of being.

We may have a difference of terms here. I mean 'experience' in the sense of 'something that one is aware of'. I am experiencing me typing right now... Surely an enlightened person would have an experience of their enlightened state?

I think the reason i am having trouble with many of these statements is that they seem to go against my own experience as a disciple. My zen master is very untraditional, has had no ordination from a tradition, has (i'm pretty sure) said he is a zen master, he doesn't follow sets of rules...

I'm just finding it hard to key in my own experience with what you are saying. When you say things like
A guru shoud have the proper schooling within the tradition
and
Thus saying you are realised, or enlightened, is grasping and therefore, not enlightened! Therefore, Not a guru.
You are explicitly stating that the path i follow is invalid and that my master is, essentially, a fake. This is a little hurtful (and also one of the reasons i have been cautious about talking about my relationship with my zen master on this board) and it doesn't key in very much with the request for people to please be respectful that you make at the start of this thread.

Obviously, you know nothing about my zen master and have not been trying to attack me personally, but this is the reason i have been questioning your statements.

If you would rather keep this as a thread for traditional guru devotion, along the lines of specific indian traditions, please let me know and i will avoid taking the thread away from your intended purposes. If you feel that the thread can accomodate other forms of 'deep studentship' (in my words, 'being a disciple to an enlightened master'), please don't be offended if i question your views or state views that differ from them.
 
 
Papess
21:21 / 05.10.07
I apologize, Petunia. However I do have to say that on should definately be cautious if they meet someone who proclaims they are a guru and talk about their attainment. You may be quite happy with this, and I have been in a relationship that was of a similar nature. What do his other students think? Does he have other students? I am only hoping for the best for your situation, and I will concede to say that in life there are always exceptions.

Let's hope that you only have good experiences. Are you asking yourself some of the other questions proposed for examining your guru? I know I am.
 
 
Papess
21:23 / 05.10.07
I mean I am examining my own Guru, not yours, Petunia!
 
 
petunia
15:01 / 06.10.07
Caution is definitely important in these cases, though it's equally important to allow oneself to trust.

My zen master asks little of me (suggests quite a lot, though i am prone to ignore some of the better advice. Idiot am i), and he has never asked me to do anything that would compromise myself. Some things may be a little bizarre ('tell this disciple about your cat') and are a little hard to fathom. But i have never felt compromised by anything asked of me.

There are definitely times when i would rather not do a certain thing, but these are the times when it is more important to do so - the times when your ego does not wish to lose its hold and allow a more genuine self to show through.

In a way, i think it is similar to finding a loved one (lover, spouse, friend) - it is important to open yourself to the possibility of trust and love within a situation that may seem strange at first.

I'm quite a cynical person and have been brought up in a society which places large emphasis on the individual. This is beneficial in that it allows one to lead a relatively autonomous existence where you are able to make your own choices away from the societal pressures that may be stronger in other societies. However, it does lead to a certain lack of emphasis on interrelation and codependence.

To hold the idea that you might learn, trust and follow the advice of another person seems quite stigmatised in a society which emphasises the importance of the single 'I' and its self-contained sovereignty.

I think i agree with warnings of people who claim to be englightened masters, but i'd be equally as cautious of those who are declared to be masters by other people. I doubt that a training in a certain tradition is any more likely to guarantee the validity of a master than is their own word.

What do his other students think? Does he have other students?

He has a small number of disciples and a larger number of people he considers 'students' (these are people who will chat to him, email him etc. to ask him about various 'zen stuff', but who have not taken sannyas). Most of the disciples i know seem to like the old man very much. They enjoy his presence, sometimes get scared when he shows them a little of themselves. One disciple is (or at least was) conviced that our master is not enlightened, but is insane. He stays his disciple though...

It's hard not to like a man called 'bunny'.

The link you made in your first post is pretty interesting and i agree with some of what it says. It seems to put a certain emphasis on using scriptures or religious texts as framework for judgement, which i'm not sure i agree with totally. I also disagree with some of the statements made and quotations given in the text, but it in the most, it seems quite a worthwhile set of questions.

In case you're curious,

1. Does Your Guru/Path Charge Money For Membership or Particpation?

Nope. I have never been asked for money, goods, sexual favours, anything. In fact, my zen master has bought me dinner a couple of times and put me up in his house rent-free for a few weeks.

2. Does Your Spiritual Teacher Have A High Standard Of Moral Conduct?

Strikes me as a largely irrelevant question. Morality is a construct of the societal mind and has nothing to do with no-mind or enlightenment. There are many different moralities; which one do we chose? There are stories of masters cutting the fingers off students or throwing students out of windows to help them realise enlightenment. Would this fit into your moral framework?

That said, i would say he exhibits what some masters speak of as 'right action' - he is a kind person, he is loving, i've never seen him hurt a person or an animal. He's never cut anyone's finger off...

3. Does Your Master Make Claims About His/Her Spiritual Development, Powers, or Attainment?

Only if he's taking the piss. He finds the claims and actions of famous gurus such as Sai Baba to be pretty hilarious. He finds the need that some seekers have to find masters/gurus who will perform miracles or act somehow perfect to be quite bizarre.

Sometimes he will talk of experiences he has had of things that sound rather extraordinary to someone brought up with a materialist mindset, but he doesn't boast, and he never 'extends' these experiences to posit some kind of meaning ('my kundalini awoke, which proves i was the buddha's mum!').

4. Does Your Guru/Group Proselytize Vigorously For New Converts?

No. He often bugs students to buy his book (obligatory plug, sorry), but this is mainly so he can repay his husband for the printing costs. He seems to enjoy being a master and teaching new disciples, but usually waits for them to ask, or offers in a polite way. I'm not sure what he would convert people to, so i don't think he could do the whole proselytizing thing very well.

As he once explained to me, people will do what they want pretty much 90% of the time. The role of the healer is not to try to change people, but to support them in whatever it is they want to do. If someone wants to become his disciple, he will support that. If not, he will support that too. If they don't want support... you get my point.

5. Who Appointed Your Teacher to Be a Master?

I honestly don't know. He took sannyas under osho and has been taught by meher baba as well, but i don't know if they ever ordained him a master. He realised his enlightenment, then offered his services to people. They tended to find him, rather than vice-versa. His choice to teach seems to be what 'makes' him a master: enlightenment + teaching = zen master.

6. Are The Central Teachings Of The Guru/Movement Trans- Rational Or Pre-Rational?

I don't really know the term 'trans-rational', but if it means true religion is a transrational endeavor to achieve higher states of consciousness beyond the verbal mind, then yeah, he's pretty trans-rational. The teachings he gives are quite simple, but definitely effective. Basically, it's meditation. Lots of meditation. 'Listening' to yourself, the world around you, the universe... The more that listening happens, the less 'I' is there.

He tends to giggle at, or just point out as wrong, any attempts i make (as a philosophy student and ex-christian) to codify the universe into some kind of framework. He also advocates a proper questioning of many of the assumptions i have about life.

7. What Are The Day To Day Results Of Your Interaction With The Guru/Path?

A bit goal-oriented, this one. Seems to imply we are only with our masters to acheive a result, rather than being with them out of friendship/love/'just because'.

But in the 3 years since i took sannyas, i have stopped smoking, stopped drinking heavily, started eating healthily, learnt reiki, moved away from depression and mental worries, moved deeply into a loving relationship with my fiancee, found joy in sitting at the base of a tree, come to terms with my bisexuality, learnt to meditate, become dead good at social interaction, become less worried about what people think about me, lost weight, grown a ponytail, learnt to cook, gone back to uni to finish a degree, kept a steady job and got promoted, had conversations with people who aren't in a body anymore, become less scared of crying... there's more but i'm sounding like a weight-watchers advert.

These are all things that i have done, things that i have become, but i doubt that i would have made the choices that brought me here had i not been in this relationship. I guess my zen master has helped me to find out who it is that i am, and shown me that it is okay to be that person. In doing this, i've learnt and become a lot more than if i had remained the malnourished pothead of 4 years ago.

One thing i was worried about (and it's a classic assumption of the whole 'spiritual awakening' thing) was that i'd suddenly become somebody different, that i'd ditch my girlfriend, run away from home and never speak to my family and friends again.

The opposite happened. I'm now engaged, my family mean more to me than ever, and they tell me that this is the first time they can remember where i actually seem happy. Some of my friends miss seeing me get wasted, but they're good at coping with it, and we all get along well.


Essentially, the only things i 'get' out of the relationship have been beneficial. I receive advice that seems to work (when i follow it), i get to partake in a great friendship with someone who is loving, helpful and funny.

When he first asked me if i wanted to become his disciple, my master said something along the lines of 'a master is only a master of themselves, not of others. A master is more like a friend - someone who will help to guide you to yourself.'

That seems to be pretty true in my experience.

If, one day, i came to realise that my master is not enlightened, but has been a fraud all along, i can't think of a single difference that it would make to what has happened so far. While i have a lot invested in our friendship, i have nothing invested in the idea that he is a master. All of the advice he has given me has proven to be true. He has not gained anything from our relationship (other than friendship and love). I love him for who he is, and not for what he is.

Perhaps this would be another 'rule' to look at when questioning the validity of a master - what do you stand to lose if your master is faking it?
 
 
EvskiG
17:45 / 06.10.07
He took sannyas under osho and has been taught by meher baba as well

Just a note: Osho is better known as the Bhagwan Shree Rashneesh (whose followers seem to keep his Wikipedia article nice and clean).

Had a few guru issues in his time, to put it mildly.
 
 
petunia
10:25 / 07.10.07
Haha, yeah, osho was, and still is, a very controversial figure. I've been thinking about starting a thread on him for a while. A more sustained attack on him can be found here.

I have found his writing (technically, the transcriptions of his speeches) to be really valuable. His meditation techniques are beautiful, too. I think he's a fascinating person and crossed the divide between eastern and western philosophies in a useful way.

I find it fascinating how the actions of his disciples frequently go in directly the opposite direction to his teachings - a man who railed against organised religion and the structures of society becoming the figurehead for a bunch of people doing some pretty ugly stuff. I'd be interested to find out how much of this action was advocated by the man himself.
 
 
Quantum
11:53 / 07.10.07
Enlightenment is required of the guru, but being a guru is not required.

There's not always a tie between being a guru figure and enlightenment. Some people make no claim to it and don't teach it.
 
 
petunia
12:47 / 07.10.07
There's not always a tie between being a guru figure and enlightenment. Some people make no claim to it and don't teach it.

That would tie in with what wiki says:

In contemporary India, the word "guru" is widely used with the general meaning of "teacher". In Western usage, the original meaning of guru has been extended to cover anyone who acquires followers, though not necessarily in an established school of philosophy or religion.

For me, if you are to have a useful distinction between 'teacher' and 'guru', such a distinction would imply the requirement that a guru is enlightened/realised/One/whatever metaphor you prefer.

However, this may just be me equating my use of the word 'master' with the concept of a guru.

What, for you, would differentiate a guru from a teacher?
 
 
EvskiG
17:02 / 07.10.07
Haha, yeah, osho was, and still is, a very controversial figure. . . . I have found his writing . . . to be really valuable. His meditation techniques are beautiful, too. I think he's a fascinating person and crossed the divide between eastern and western philosophies in a useful way.

Now see, here's an interesting guru issue.

The Bhagwan was more than just a controversial figure. Leaving aside the pretty much undisputed sexual abuse and child abuse on his compounds, the use of disciples' money to buy himself more than 80 Rolls-Royces, the tax evasion, his own crippling drug abuse, and so forth, this is a guy who almost certainly knew of and consented to the poisoning of salad bars at 10 restaurants in Oregon, injuring more than 750 people. And who may have conspired to kill a U.S. Attorney. And who unquestionably escaped charges of criminal conspiracy, making false statements to federal officials, and immigration fraud only by paying a $400,000 fine and agreeing to leave the United States.

Given his odious personal conduct, why should anyone pay any attention to anything he said about spirituality? Or, more broadly, is it possible to separate a purported guru's teachings from his or her personal conduct?
 
 
Princess
17:54 / 07.10.07
I think it is. I mean, it's not exactly encouraging. But just because someone hasn't walked the walk, it doesn't mean that they couldn't talk the talk.

I mean, I could give you all a fairly convincing pastiche of Fred Phelps. But that doesn't mean I'd stop my life of dog-like sin.
 
 
petunia
18:10 / 07.10.07
This is what i mean by 'controversial'. I'm interested in finding out how many of the claims made agaisnt osho are actually true. Nobody disputes that a lot of shit went down with his disciples, but how involved with this shit was he?

I'm very interested in your question: broadly, is it possible to separate a purported guru's teachings from his or her personal conduct?

There are examples in other walks of life (music, literature etc) where the question is more open. An example; i really like the philosophy of Nietzsche. I find his thought highly influential and quite revolutionary. However, he's got some pretty shit views on women, views that, no matter how you try to read them, end up as simple misogyny.

The views he expounds here (along with some of his other views that seem tainted with hatred) make me like Nietzsche the person less, or view him in a less valuable light, but they don't detract from other, greatly important, parts of his philosophy. Nietzche-as-text yeah, fine. Nietzsche-as-person, maybe not.

But it seems we can't really take this view with a master. If they are intended not only to teach the way, but also to be the way, then surely we must look at their actions. If there is a discrepancy between the text and the person, we should probably start looking elsewhere if we are seeking a master.

I have found most of the books of osho to be very intelligently written (told?) and very helpful. I think his meditations are brilliant. They help to bring me to 'a meditative place' a lot more quickly and effectively that most other meditations i have tried.

So for me, osho-as-text, fine. osho-as-person, i'm not sure. I haven't read many histories on osho and online resources are frequently either ravingfan or rabidhater. My master has a great love for him, but does not act as an apologist for him - he has no idea why osho said some of the things he said (claimng 'Krisnamurti was not enlightened' springs to mind). He has read a few histories on him and has asked him about some things. I have heard this stuff second hand.

So yeah, i'm interested in that question, and especially how it relates to osho's work, as my practice is pretty heavily influenced by him. This is why i want to find out the truth (as far as it can be discerned) about the various things that have been said about him.

So a few questions/comments:

undisputed sexual abuse and child abuse on his compounds

As i say, i'm not too up on my history of the guy. Were these abuses commited by him, or by sannyassins? Did he advocate them? Where can i learn more?

the use of disciples' money to buy himself more than 80 Rolls-Royces

All of the Rolls Royces owned by osho were donated to him. He never spent a penny on a car. Incidentally, when Sheela, the head of the shit that went down in the commune, left the commune with the collected funds of the people living there, osho sold all the cars to try to give some of this money back.

his own crippling drug abuse

The only place i've ever read this is in the site i linked and the writer doesn't give the source for this info. Do you have any sources for it?

this is a guy who almost certainly knew of and consented to the poisoning of salad bars at 10 restaurants in Oregon, injuring more than 750 people. And who may have conspired to kill a U.S. Attorney.

From what i've heard, osho had very little to do with the running of the 'Rajneeshpuram' in America. The story i've heard is that there was a small group of individuals, headed by Sheela, who organised these actions. Wiki mentions that osho turned these people in as soon as he found out about this. You seem pretty adamant that he was happy for this shit to go down, why is this?

And who unquestionably escaped charges of criminal conspiracy, making false statements to federal officials, and immigration fraud only by paying a $400,000 fine and agreeing to leave the United States.

If the US government levied this fine, surely his actions here are, at least, legal. While i do not know what was held against him under the 'criminal conspiracy' charges, i don't personally have any problem with people lying to, or defrauding, the US (or any other) government.

I do want to get to the truth behind the various stories told, so any info you can point me to will be very handy.

These points raise another question in the whole guru thing. Even if osho did not commit or condone the various acts mentioned here, is he still, in a way, responsible? If it was Sheela and her group who poisoned, lied, tapped etc, should we still hold osho accountable for the actions of 'his people'?

Do we count the guru, or the 'movement'?
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:44 / 07.10.07
Sounds like a small part of the movement to me from what your describing and not the whole movement. But then i do not know the full details.

How does Crowley compare to a figure like Osho in those respects, i see some similarities not in scale but in purported behaviour and abuse of devotees, a lot of these occult orders and religious sects begin to sound just a tiny bit like they have issues.

But then wouldn't state sponsored religion and psychiatric view points want people to think that way, so a certain perspective appears to be the right perspective.

I never can make my mind up without seeing both sets of evidence, for and against. And something being sanctioned at a national level does not make it the most moral or ethical position.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:53 / 07.10.07
I wonder how much temporal distance you have to put between things before people begin to revise how they are perceived, for example look at the modern O.T.O or Golden dawn and the figures involved now, as compared to the reputations from the past of the various characters involved.

Time seems to remove the edge from a scandal slowly but surely and eventually an entire set of circumstances can appear in a completely different way or not be the point of rememberence when it comes to a certain subject or figure.

A once thought of monstrous figure becomes a celebrated character.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
06:52 / 08.10.07
Enlightenment is attainable without a guru. And cannot be imparted upon anyone. A guru give profound insight, but they cannot "impart enlightenment" upon anyone.

I separated the terms "superconsciousness" and "enlightenment" for the sake of discernment...I actually agree with you, Medulla.

My understanding of superconsciousness comes from Hindu Psychology: Its Meaning for the West by Swami Akhilananda in his essay "Can Superconsciousness Be Imparted?" He relates the classic story of Swami Vivekananda’s encounter with Sri Ramakrishna. In this story, Vivekananda is able to enter the “highest state of superconsciousness realization spontaneously and immediately” after Ramakrishna simply touches him on the head. He envisions a holy light that is so infinitely brilliant and bright he has to halt the experience to retain his sanity, simultaneously realizing he is not ready for such intensity in his spiritual practice. The experience is humbling and educational for the student.

It is much like when Tom O'Bedlam sends Dane on a vision quest with a blow to the head in the Invisibles. Anyone care to elaborate on old Tom's role as a guru?

The guru's ability to impart their own illumination onto the disciple is one way to sum up this experience, and I don't mean to imply enlightenment itself can be imparted. But, altered states leading towards enlightenment can be imparted by the right teacher, which may be a prerequisite for judging who is qualified to be considered a guru.

Again, no one I would consider to be one of my gurus has ever claimed to be a guru themselves, but their abilities and brilliance demonstrate such a status.
 
 
Quantum
08:38 / 08.10.07
For me, if you are to have a useful distinction between 'teacher' and 'guru', such a distinction would imply the requirement that a guru is enlightened/realised/One/whatever metaphor you prefer.

I disagree. Maybe if you follow a Buddhist or Hindu tradition. I would have difficulty discerning whether someone was enlightened or realised or whole or whatever, because I don't really know what that means. How do you tell if someone is 'enlightened'?

Just for clarity, I'm aware of enlightenment as Bodhi/Satori or Moksha, but they seem very trad-specific terms to me, and not what your mean- you seem to be saying a guru should have a mystical superhuman quality X, but I don't know what X is.
 
 
EvskiG
14:01 / 08.10.07
I'm interested in finding out how many of the claims made agaisnt osho are actually true. Nobody disputes that a lot of shit went down with his disciples, but how involved with this shit was he?

Since he's dead and he denied most of the claims against him, it's hard to tell, isn't it?

If you're interested in researching the issue you could read Bhagwan: The God that Failed, by his former bodyguard, or My Life in Orange, by a kid raised on the Oregon compound. Or do a LEXIS search for news articles from the 80s. Even the New York Times search function shows 136 articles. (I like the one about the demand for a throne in his jail cell.) And here's a fairly detailed article.

If you're asking what the basis for my own comments was, I paid attention to the scandal back in the 80s, and reviewed an article or two before writing my previous post. But since you asked some specific questions, here's a quick response:

undisputed sexual abuse and child abuse on his compounds

Here's the first thing I found in a search:

While living in Bombay, Rajneesh made one young woman pregnant through an aggressive and unasked for seduction. The woman was highly upset and forced by circumstance to have an abortion. In order to protect his image as a great guru, Rajneesh lied about his involvement and claimed that the girl had imagined the whole affair. The young woman told the American Embassy her story, and that incident marked the beginning of Rajneesh's troubles with the United States Government.

I never used the legal term "rape." It was a case of a much older man overpowering a young woman with overwhelming psychic force. She went to him for spiritual guidance and instead got a totally unwanted sexual advance. She was overpowered mentally, emotionally, psychically. He used his great power selfishly, dishonestly, inappropriately, but I do not think a court of law could convict him for rape.

Here's more from the same guy:

During his Bombay era, Rajneesh often grabbed the breasts of his young female disciples. On at least one occasion he asked a couple to have sex in front of him so he could watch. The couple wisely rejected his request.

Rajneesh often asked women half his age to strip in front of him so that he could "feel their chakras." To facilitate this practice, he installed an electric lock on his bedroom door that could be activated from his famous high-backed chair by his desk, where he spent most of his time. . . . . Rajneesh groped the breasts of two of my women friends and "felt the chakras" of a third. . . . My lady friend who suffered the charkra feeling incident was so put off that she never came back to see him. He had told her "Don't worry, you are mine now." That grasping statement had chilled her as much as the sexual exploitation. . . . In his early years Rajneesh lied about his strong sexuality by claiming to be celibate. To be fair, this has to be understood in the context of a rigidly anti-sexual and highly hypocritical Indian social structure. Later on, after his position as a guru had become solidified, Rajneesh publicly bragged to the American media about having sex "with hundreds of women." All of Rajneesh's sex partners were his own female meditation students who were used as his personal harem.

And here's someone talking about "a few suicides and rapes" on one of the compounds.

And that's in a quick search. I'm sure you can find more.

the use of disciples' money to buy himself more than 80 Rolls-Royces

All of the Rolls Royces owned by osho were donated to him. He never spent a penny on a car.


Whether his disciples donated the Rolls Royces or he bought them himself, it was his disciples' money. But, if this reprint of an AP article can be trusted, it seems that at least sometimes he did buy them himself:

The Bhagwan bought his first Rolls Royce, a Corniche, in 1980 . . . . After establishing his commune in Oregon, followers of the Bhagwan said their leader wanted a new
Rolls for each day of the year, and began ordering two a month from dealers.

his own crippling drug abuse

The Valium and nitrous abuse were mentioned by his major domo (and denied by the Bhagwan) in a 60 Minutes interview at the time. But here's a New York Times article written by someone raised on the Oregon compound confirming the nitrous use. I'm getting a bit tired of this research, but if you really want me to I can find a few more articles.

this is a guy who almost certainly knew of and consented to the poisoning of . . . more than 750 people.

The story i've heard is that there was a small group of individuals, headed by Sheela, who organised these actions. Wiki mentions that osho turned these people in as soon as he found out about this.


The Wikipedia article seems to be maintained by his disciples, who may not be entirely neutral.

It's not clear whether the Bhagwan was involved. (That's why I said "almost certainly knew.") But -- plausible deniability aside -- if the organization you run takes what appears to be deliberate and coordinated action, I think it's reasonable to assume that you were aware of and agreed to that action, whether you're the Bhagwan or George W. Bush or Charles Manson or Fat Tony. While the Bhagwan claimed he couldn't have participated because he was "in silence," that just meant that he didn't teach disciples during that period -- not that he didn't regularly communicate with Sheela or his other lieutenants.

And who unquestionably escaped charges of criminal conspiracy, making false statements to federal officials, and immigration fraud only by paying a $400,000 fine and agreeing to leave the United States.

If the US government levied this fine, surely his actions here are, at least, legal.


Huh? He resolved criminal charges by paying a fine and leaving the country. That doesn't mean that the actions that were the bases for those claims were legal.

i don't personally have any problem with people lying to, or defrauding, the US (or any other) government.

Others may hold a different view. And it certainly doesn't seem very guru-like.

I do want to get to the truth behind the various stories told

For better or worse, I assume that's pretty much impossible.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
16:13 / 08.10.07
well.....if the government is hindering the disciple's spiritual growth in some way, there becomes a conflict of interest.

I prefer my gurus to have a touch of rebel in them.
 
 
Quantum
17:54 / 08.10.07
I prefer my gurus to have a touch of rebel in them.

Like Jesus.
 
 
petunia
18:17 / 08.10.07
Quantum -
You make a good point. As you point out, i am not using the word in a tradition-specific sense. I realise this may be somewhat problematic, but i think it is workable.

The(/a) concept of enlightenment was around during the time of Plato, and is obviously refered to in the historical events of 18th century Western Europe.

There are numerous accounts of spiritual experiences which seem to have a lot in common. The main points seem to be the loss of ego and the the broadening of one's consciousness to an understanding of oneself as a part of the thing we exist in (God/Brahma/Atman/the Tao/The Universe/The Great Mother...). It's not essentially a 'superhuman' state, but more a realisation of one's actual, basic state. Many accounts deem it as both utterly divine and utterly normal.

The spiritual concept seems to equate to the term 'unio mystica' - a 'becoming one' with the godhead/divine/universe. Many traditions seem to have an account of reaching such a state. In Western traditions, it seems that the more 'mystical' branches of religions deal with how one reaches such a state, whereas it seems to be more widely accepted as reachable in Eastern traditions.

I use the term 'enlightnement' because it is used in my practice, but also because i believe it is less trad-specific than terms such as Bodhi/Moksha. As a word that has been used in broader terms through the history of our language, it seems more neutral, though i may be biased. Perhaps 'awakened' would be more suitable?

There is, of course, the argument that we cannot equate the concepts from such a broad range of histories and traditions. This may be true, in which case we (i?) should also accept that we cannot equate 'guru' to specific teachers from other traditions.

Your question How do you tell if someone is 'enlightened'? is obviously quite important. I genuinely have no idea how one tells such a thing. Various accounts state that only enlightened people can truly tell if another person is or isn't enlghtened. An analogy i read once: If your partner is sleeping beside you as they read, can they tell if you are awake or asleep?

This leads to quite an amusing problem - if only proper gurus are enlightened (excuse me for my imposition of this definition for purposes of the sentence), how the hell do we tell if a guru is 'for real'. In the piece i link to above, the writer seems pretty sure of osho's enlightenment, but then makes him out to be a generally failed human being.

I suppose that, as a disciple, one has to rely on an element of trust. I trust my master when he says he is enlightened. When in his presence, i find a quality unlike any i have found in my other interactions with human beings, but this is not proof of anything. There have been numerous times when he has shown me the right way to do something or astounded me with his awareness of things but, again, not proof.

For me, i just work it on trust. The sentence i made above (If, one day, i came to realise that my master is not enlightened...) holds true, but i can see that this would be a problem for other people.

In a way, it shouldn't matter. If enlightenment is, essentially, the natural state of existence and is realisable by all, then the way you come to realise it, the people who help you come to realise it, are irrelevent. There are tales of zen monks who became enlightened even though their master was a fake. It's all an odd thing, really.

Out of interest, what would you consider as defining a guru, as opposed to a teacher?

Ev -
Thanks for the links. As i say, it's important for me to find out about this stuff. I want to talk about some of the articles you link to and quote, but don't want to derail this thread, so i'm going to get an osho thread written up and try to deal with only the stuff that can be extended to guru worship as a whole.

Really, i'm interested in your view on criminal actions of a guru. You mention G W Bush in your list of bad people; does this mean you consider him to act immorally? If so, and if, as you say, a government acts according to its leader, why should it matter if a guru (or anybody else for that matter) breaks its laws?

Obviously, some laws may well agree with our moral preferences (no murder, no theft etc), but some obviously contradict them. If my zen master travels to missouri and has sex with his husband while he is there, he will be breaking the law. Why should i care about that?
 
 
EvskiG
18:45 / 08.10.07
You mention G W Bush in your list of bad people; does this mean you consider him to act immorally?

Certainly.

If so, and if, as you say, a government acts according to its leader, why should it matter if a guru (or anybody else for that matter) breaks its laws?

You're oversimplifying.

I didn't say "a government acts according to its leader," I said that it's generally reasonable to assume that the head of an organization is aware of and responsible for the deliberate and coordinated actions of that organization.

Despite Bush's best efforts, he's not considered to be above the law, and the mere fact that he does something doesn't make it legal. And, of course, I don't think that all of the U.S. laws on the books are invalid merely because of the fact that Bush currently is President.

Obviously, some laws may well agree with our moral preferences (no murder, no theft etc), but some obviously contradict them. If my zen master travels to missouri and has sex with his husband while he is there, he will be breaking the law. Why should i care about that?

I never said you should. I just said that some may disagree with your position -- that you don't have any problem with people lying to, or defrauding, the US or other governments.

Naturally, I agree with some laws and disagree with others. And I don't have a problem with people violating some of the laws that I disagree with. But the Bhagwan wasn't (or wasn't merely) violating some victimless, malum prohibitum laws -- he also seemed to violate quite a few malum in se laws, including attempted murder, sexual abuse, etc.
 
 
petunia
19:50 / 08.10.07
I think you're misreading me, Ev.

I was not trying to say that Bush is above the law, but was trying to point to the fact that many of the laws in America are created and enforced by a government with a pretty shitty person as its leader.

I was doing this as you seemed to be disagreeing with the idea that there is not necessarily anything immoral in acting against the US government. I was not doing this to suggest that osho committed crimes that are morally just. I do not know the details of charges held against him when the fines were levied. I simply meant that there is nothing inherently wrong (in a moral sense) with breaking a law.

I had assumed that your statement that Others may hold a different view. implied that that is what you think. This seemed justified by your addition of And it certainly doesn't seem very guru-like. Though it now appears you were speaking specifically about osho, rather than the law in general/gurus in general. Apologies for any misunderstanding.
 
 
Quantum
07:42 / 09.10.07
if only proper gurus are enlightened (excuse me for my imposition of this definition for purposes of the sentence), how the hell do we tell if a guru is 'for real'

That's kind of my point- I don't think enlightenment or awakening or whatever is necessarily connected to being a guru. It is connected in a lot of trads, but there are people who offer other things instead of 'enlightenment'.
Here's a hypothetical- if I offer to teach you astral flight and mind control by using my psychic powers to align your essence, just come to my ashram for six months and give me ten thousand dollars, I'm not offering or mentioning enlightenment at all. Awakening has nothing to do with it, I'm offering psychic powers as the draw instead.
(And if you ask Guru Quantum whether he is enlightened, he will simply smile enigmatically and ask you for ten thousand dollars, for only the poor man can be woken... sorry, offtopic)
 
 
petunia
08:44 / 09.10.07
I see what you mean.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you giving 'guru' in a wittgenstinian sense of 'the meaning of the word is its use'? If so, then i obviously agree that enlightenment is not necessary. It seems the word guru is used mostly as somebody who is accepted (correctly or not) as a powerful teacher of methods usually defined as 'esoteric' or 'spiritual'. Someone who helps us to grow from the darkness and into the light?

Are you trying to say that, as this is the definition we have, it is not necessarily useful, or correct, apart from within specific traditions, to try to define the guru solely as an enlightened master?

Is that what you mean, or am i missing the point?

(And dude?! Ten grand for that stuff? You know there are Pdfs for free on that?!)
 
 
Quantum
09:27 / 09.10.07
I mean that the association guru=enlightenment is not always the case, just often the case. Many gurus talk about or offer enlightenment, some do not, but offer similar nebulous or implausible alternatives or valuable and meaningful alternatives.

Disclosure; my not-guru doesn't teach enlightenment, isn't enlightened, doesn't mention it or anything similar and doesn't get involved in religion. He teaches meditation techniques to make you feel happy, which you can use whether you are Christian or Buddhist or Atheist, which aren't related to awakening or anything like that. It could be argued that the experience attained while meditating is the same or similar to 'enlightenment', but my teacher/master/guru focuses on the techniques and the experience itself and ignores and discourages philosophical debate about it. Is the experience the same as zen enlightenment? 'Who cares!' he would say.
 
 
petunia
11:01 / 09.10.07
Is the experience the same as zen enlightenment? 'Who cares!' he would say.

Hehe, ace. Sounds like you've got a good thing going on there. It seems like he's putting the emphasis in all the right places.

I find that the more some idea of, or desire for, enlightenment is present in my meditation, the less, um.. meditative the experience is. Many teachers/master emphasise enlightenment as 'nothing special' and something that just sort of happens. (I realise i'm framing your experiences in my own terms. Forgive me.)

So what, for you, makes the relationship you have with your 'non-guru' special? How would you consider it to be different from a more 'normal' teacher/learner experience?

I hope you don't mind me asking these questions. I am geniunely interested in your experiences.
 
 
Quantum
14:54 / 09.10.07
So what, for you, makes the relationship you have with your 'non-guru' special? How would you consider it to be different from a more 'normal' teacher/learner experience?

It's very like being a fan. My relationship is 'special' only in the same way my relationship with Alan Moore* is special, or anyone else I think is way groovy. It's special because what he teaches you to practice brings peace, like a hippy martial art where you become a black belt in fulfilment, so I suppose the content of his teachings is what makes him different from a Jui-jitsu instructor or Bob Dylan.
I suppose the reason I think of him as a guru is because he was called 'Guru ****' until the eighties, but I think he dropped it because of the baggage and because he's not really a guru I suppose. I mean, he used to take satsang and his followers lived in ashrams in the 70s, people would do service and kiss his feet (I did when I was 5, in Madrid) etc. and he has disgruntled ex-followers and accusations of being a cult leader and people complain he has too many cars... all the trappings of a guru.
His followers love him. I guess that's the difference between teacher and guru.

*not saying Moore's a guru, Alan is more of a heavily bearded and bejewelled role model.
 
 
petunia
16:30 / 09.10.07
His followers love him. I guess that's the difference between teacher and guru.

Beautifully put.
 
 
EvskiG
17:16 / 09.10.07
I don't think that's accurate.

I've loved plenty of teachers I haven't considered gurus.

I think that the differences include (i) teachers have students, while gurus have disciples or followers, and (ii) students may love their teachers, but disciples love their gurus as an essential part of their spiritual practice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:10 / 09.10.07
Is there any real relevance to the Indian name for Jupiter being Guru and the idea of the Guru, they do seem to share certain similar characteristics for example a quick read of the god of Jupiter gives an overall idea. Brahmanaspati

This place i find pretty funny , but it also has some useful links Sarlo's Guru Rating Service
 
 
Papess
14:05 / 10.10.07
There's not always a tie between being a guru figure and enlightenment. Some people make no claim to it and don't teach it.

Well, it all depends on where you want to go, doesn't it?

If I want to become a lawyer, I would study with someone who has mastered law and become a lawyer - not a paralegal.
If I want to become a doctor, I would study with someone who has mastered medicine and become a doctor - not a nurse.
If I want to become a carpenter, I would study with someone who has mastered carpentry and become a carpenter - not a hobbyist who builds birdhouses.

One doesn't have to have a guru in order to become enlightened. But if that is your goal, then having the help of someone who has achieved this state will be invaluable. They will be able to direct you precisely to what you need to learn and help you to achieve your own enlightment with expediency. It is possible to achieve on your own, but it may take longer.

And not to completely disregard the help of those who are not enlightened assisting you on your path; the paralegal may teach you something about law, the nurse may teach you something about medicine, and the hobbyist may teach you something about woodworking.
 
 
Quantum
16:44 / 10.10.07
if that is your goal, then having the help of someone who has achieved this state will be invaluable.

Enlightenment's's not my goal (I'm not sure I even know what it is), fair point though. If my goal is happiness I should learn from someone who's good at being happy.
 
 
darth daddy
00:33 / 11.10.07

Thank you for the posts about Bhagwan Rasjneesh...very interesting. Assuming the worst about a guru, is it necessary that a guru meet standard and minimal ethics, or can a guru be both a scoundrel and spiritually enlightened in at least some respects? I have issues with judging the validity and the experiences of people in "cults", even cults I have issues with, such as the Mormons, Catholics, Scientologists, Moonies, etc... I do not believe that all followers of Rajneesh, or Jim Jones for that matter, can be dismissed as weak morons.

My reading of tantric and zen stories are full of fairly abusive and bizarre acts by gurus (one finger zen one of my favorites) However, these acts share the common denominator of seeking to help a disciple, not simply benefit the guru.
 
 
Papess
23:40 / 11.11.07
This Lama is out there. However, in a good way. He has some interesting points about practice and Guru Devotion. I nearly laughed my tea out my nose when he spoke about his clubbing days in L.A.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply