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Umberto Eco - Foucault's Pendulum

 
 
Tom Coates
07:26 / 09.07.01
Ok - so I'm reading Foucault's Pendulum at the moment for the first time and I'm really enjoying it, but I keep getting these weirdly disconcerting flashes of Invisibles stuff in it - from Invisible Colleges to 36 invisibles to the Count de Saint-Germain and I've just stumbled upon the term Barbelite and I'm beginning to wonder whether other people have noticed these things, and exactly how much influence this book might have had on Grant himself...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:36 / 09.07.01
Mm. I hadn't read The Invisibles when I started reading Foucault's Pendulum, but I do see what you mean. I think it's probably had a pretty good effect on lots of conspiracy/behind-the-scenes writers for a good few years now. The fact that there's an enormous sense of play, and of boasting "ha! I know this!" in the text probably helps a lot, too.

Of course, I wish he'd canned the frigging horn narrative.

I don't know: for all its self-indulgence, Eco's book was the one that seriously got me interested in secret societies et al. It's fabulous, if flawed.
 
 
BAFM
20:43 / 09.07.01
Much, I'd say... And cf. The Illuminatus.

I think I read in an Invisibles letter column that Fouc's was an influence... Couldn't say for sure without checking [baulks at the thought of rooting through back issues to find the column in question...]
 
 
Ofermod
09:19 / 10.07.01
I read that one about ten years ago and loved it, might be time to pick it up again and read it with an Invisibles slant. I also recall it being a long read. But I always loved the line, "Truth is brief....the rest is commentary." (At least I think that's from Pendulum...like I said, it's been ten years)
 
 
imaginaryboy
09:19 / 10.07.01
Ofermod:

The first time I read it, it seemed really long to me, too. And then I recently reread it & it seemed to go much more quickly the second time 'round ("I'm at this part already?"). I think it's damn fab book.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:19 / 10.07.01
Must confess I'm getting a bit exhausted by it. I'm about 2/3rds of the way in and kind of feel like I'm not making any headway...
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:19 / 10.07.01
[ving]That's Eco fuckin' wit'cha. Fuck Eco.[/ving]

Keep going. It is worth it. I always feel extra learned when I mangage to plough through one of his novels.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:59 / 10.07.01
I think the connection between Grant and Eco is the fact that while Eco sets the responsibility for creating the readingexperience directly on the reader (in effect the reader is the most important thing in the interpretation of a text), Grant goes one further and posits the reader as creating reality vis-a-vis a construction of selfhood based on the Dennet/Norretranders conception of "self (or consciousness) as a narrative center of gravity." llustrating the two different concepts in fiction would lend themselves to the same sort of technique and subject matter.

Anyway, if you can get a hold of it, Manly Hall's "The Secret Teaching of All Ages" seems to be to me the non-fiction (okay, occult) equivalent of Foucault's pendulum.
 
 
MJ-12
14:58 / 10.07.01
Well, the first 16,000 pages were a little dull, but it picked up in the last twenty.
 
 
imaginaryboy
15:40 / 10.07.01
Really? You thought so? I didn't find a single part of the book boring. I found it very moving.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:55 / 10.07.01
So on the subject of the Barbelites, which I'm posting about on another thread - does anyone have any idea where Eco read about them, and what books cover them? I'd love to read about our Gnostic forebears...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
18:26 / 10.07.01
Tom, I found the last third of the book to really start to pick up speed. It also gave me a quick punch in the guts with the ending. (no... my book wasn't possessed).

I'm also trying to find some specific Barbelo resources for you. I'll hopefully have some for you in a couple hours.
 
 
Sunday
19:58 / 10.07.01
Hans Jonas - The Gnostic Religion has some things about "Barbelo" in it.
 
 
Annunnaki-9
04:18 / 12.07.01
Jonas is out of date- he relied solely on inimical accounts by early church fathers and didn't have access to the Oxyrhynchos material (but he did well with what he had).

A better, more current set is Kurt Rudolph's 'Gnosticism,' or James Robinson's 'The Gnostic Scriptures.'

B.T.W. Eco is great. It's supposed to be intellectually challenging: that's how one builds up a semiotic code (regardless of how tractable it is to the reader/writer). And Todd, I really don't think that Eco and Morrison were/are at odds on this- I think it's the very same thing. The trumpet in the text, recieving very bad press here, is an intertextual analog of that sort of thing.
 
 
redtara
12:12 / 16.07.01
Hey Tom, I doubt that this was a reference work for Eco, him being so brainy and all, but I read a book called 'Holy Blood, Holy Fire' or was it 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail'? Well it was something like that.

It covered two writers attempts to investigate the link between Masons, The Vatican bank, Knights Templar and the death of a foreign financier under Blackfriers bridge some years ago. Full on conspiracy anticks - no pay off though - but truly creepy.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
12:55 / 16.07.01
redtara: are you thinking of Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Baigent, Lincoln and Lee? Amazon says this: quote:Michael Baigent, Henry Lincoln, and Richard Leigh, authors of The Messianic Legacy, spent over 10 years on their own kind of quest for the Holy Grail, into the secretive history of early France. What they found, researched with the tenacity and attention to detail that befits any great quest, is a tangled and intricate story of politics and faith that reads like a mystery novel. It is the story of the Knights Templar, and a behind-the-scenes society called the Prieure de Sion, and its involvement in reinstating descendants of the Merovingian bloodline into political power. Why? The authors of Holy Blood, Holy Grail assert that their explorations into early history ultimately reveal that Jesus may not have died on the cross, but lived to marry and father children whose bloodline continues today. The authors' point here is not to compromise or to demean Jesus, but to offer another, more complete perspective of Jesus as God's incarnation in man. The power of this secret, which has been carefully guarded for hundreds of years, has sparked much controversy. For all the sensationalism and hoopla surrounding Holy Blood, Holy Grail and the alternate history that it outlines, the authors are careful to keep their perspective and sense of skepticism alive in its pages, explaining carefully and clearly how they came to draw such combustible conclusions.
about it. Disinfo have a page about it here. From the bumph I'm reading, I can't see the church bank (Opus Dei, too?) connections, but I'm sure they're there. Certainly, I think this was the basis for the Grail story in Preacher - and it's got that much "truth-is-weirder-than-fiction" value that you could add almost anything to it and still have it sound credible... If this is the book you're talking about, it's relatively cheap (it's also been revised a couple of times) and is pretty plentiful, second-hand. I've never read it, though...

Another question: is Eco a shithouse theoretician? A friend of mine said his theoretical writing isn't that rigorous ("pile of shite" being more or less the term used) or as intelligent as his fiction. Comments? I'm not that well-versed in his theory, so I don't know - but would like to.
 
 
Templar
01:29 / 18.07.01
I did a bit of Eco's theory when I was at university, and I couldn't see that he'd produced anything that other people hadn't already done, but just unified it into a kind of grand Eco-sphere of semiotic theory. He explains things quite well though. With semiotics it's enough of a muddy field that it really helps to be able to group stuff behind coherant figures. (Although I was watching Battlefield Earth the other day [the horror...] and it really reminded me at the beginning of a good essay by Eco about archaeologists rediscovering the 20th C. in the future, and trying to make sense of it. Needless to say, they get it all wrong...)
On Eco's fiction (which is generally wicked), it's interesting (perhaps more to the writers around) that his first novel drew heavily on his MA thesis / first academic book (Medieval Art and Light) and his second novel was like a manifesto for European Semiotics and the third novel was... pretty aimless, as far as I remember.

[ 18-07-2001: Message edited by: Templar ]
 
 
Annunnaki-9
16:31 / 18.07.01
Yeah, true. He is (was) a professor of what we in the states call 'Medieval Studies' at the University of Bologne (also a noted center of Italian Marxist activity). A lot of his non-fiction stuff, well written as it is, is pretty much variation on a theme- that of semiotics and complex semiotic code-systems.

'Name of the Rose' really shows him as a medievalist, but the fascination with semiotics is certainly there. 'Foucault's Pendulum' is built more off of a strict semiotic base, but of course, one can never escape the Templars, can one? 'Island of the Day Before' is in between them, the late Renaissance semiotic endevor when in conflict with the age of exploration when the cliche held true- 'everything you thought you knew is WRONG.' It also draws on themes of the occult machine, which his nf book 'In Search of the Perfect Language' focuses on.

Good news for Eco-philes- a new novel, already been published in Italy, even as we speak being translated into English. That's all I know of it- no idea what's its about or when.
 
  
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