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'A Canticle for Leibowitz': and other post-apocalyptic fictions (possible spoilers)

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:08 / 20.02.02
I have just finished A Canticle for Leibowitz (and thought it decent enough, though it didn't really move the earth for me - some strong imagery there, though) and thought it would be interesting to explore post-apocalyptic fiction in general. I haven't read much of the genre myself (though - in the post-nuclear-holocaust field - I have vague memories of Brother in the Land by Robert Swindalls and some book by Peggy Woodford - 'Monster in our Midst'?)...

While I read Canticle I was reminded of a couple of other books: David Mamet's Wilson: a consideration of the sources, and Ackroyd's The Plato Papers... because, I think, of the fact that all these books deal with the fragmentation of knowledge over the centuries, and the preservation of distorted views of the past and what that can do to a polity. Peculiar that a genre dealing with the future should end up placing so much emphasis on the importance of remembering the past (perhaps less peculiar in the case of Leibowitz, since it was written soon after WWII...)

Leibowitz is obviously a warning against the thoughtless use of technologies (in this case, nuclear weapons) and a meditation on the eternal failures of mankind - and, I think, a critique of the Enlightenment project and of blind faith...

Is post-apocalytic fiction always pessimistic?

There's a useful study guide to Leibowitz here.

[ 20-02-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
rizla mission
11:28 / 20.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:

Leibowitz is obviously a warning against the thoughtless use of technologies (in this case, nuclear weapons) and a meditation on the eternal failures of mankind - and, I think, a critique of the Enlightenment project and of blind faith...


That explains why I liked it so much .. being generally friendly toward all those notions.
I've always seen it as having a pretty similar message to Vonnegut's 'Cat's Cradle' (possibly my favourite book), but thinking back that may just be because I read them both in quick succession.

quote:
Is post-apocalytic fiction always pessimistic?


I've been racking my brain trying to dredge up some which isn't .. there's often some optimism in these kind of stories, but it generally takes the form of the characters taking some steps to rebuild the previous status-quo, rather than taking a "well, the old world is destroyed, let's build a BETTER one that won't get destroyed!" kind of attitude.

[ 20-02-2002: Message edited by: Rizla Year Zero ]
 
 
Trijhaos
16:37 / 20.02.02
"The Lost Traveler" by Steve Wilson isn't really pessimistic.

Its about the splintering of the united states into two separate nations, The Fief, which makes up the west, and The East. Anyway to make a long story short this book happens a couple hundred years after nuclear war and a small group of hell's angels have to help a scientist that may be able to revive the radidated land escape from the clutches of the East since the East didn't learn their lesson the first time that nuclear war is bad.In the end, the hero rides off into the sunset.

Of course, I don't think it was supposed to be considered a serious book since on the title page its described as "A Motorycyle Grail Quest Epic and Science Fiction Western".
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:41 / 21.02.02
I'm not sure 'seriousness' is an issue... I don't think the Mamet I mentioned is 'serious' in the slightest - it's just a 300+ page joke (and is therefore a little difficult to stomach at times). But it is still post-apocalyptic (the premise is that all the information about the history of the world etc. was destroyed when the internet collapsed, and the book consists of academics trying to piece together what happened from the few documents that survive). But light books can contain serious matter...

I am, however, a little put off by the fact that it's 'the East' who are failing to learn from the lessons of the past. I liked the fact that, in Leibowitz,

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

though the world is again effectively divided into 'West' and 'East', it's impossible to tell which is at fault for the catastrophe which destroys that round of civilisations - the implication being that they are equally at fault.

I must say I am increasingly fascinated by the emphasis, in these books about possible futures, on the importance of remembering the past.
 
 
grant
13:39 / 21.02.02
You HAVE TO read Russell Hoban's Riddley Walker.

The Second Iron Age; literacy about gone; a "dog friendly" kid wanders outside his fenced community; Jesus, the USA, the atomic nucleus, and Punch (from Punch & Judy) are all conflated into this postapocalyptic legend, The Story of Eusa. Written in its own language, makes new meanings out of old words (like the pain of adulthood, once you're "groan").

I mean, it rocks. There are sample pages at the link above. Read them. It's SOOO good.

The end is ambivalent (SPOILER: *), but the story is nearly perfect.


*(among other things, rediscovery of gunpowder in Great Britain)

[ 21-02-2002: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:49 / 21.02.02
Oh, oh, I read the extract and I must have it! I love Russell Hoban, I just hadn't got round to this one yet, but now I will definitely keep an eye out for it... That dialect looks like the written form of the Somerset accent, btw. It looks like you should read it out loud with a deep West Country burr.
 
 
The Strobe
09:04 / 22.02.02
I loved the Plato Papers. Mainly because the direction it took after (Spoilers, you fools!) Plato gets exiled is fascinating.

And I loved the representation of "humanity"... it takes a while to work out what we've become. And everyone has their own interpretation. But yeah, a great book, damn hard work and possibly calling out for a reread when I get home.
 
 
Math is for suckers!
09:04 / 22.02.02
i really liked alas, babylon. i cant remember who wrote it though. it deals more with surviving after the bomb than with any kind of science-fiction themes. more a tale of survival.really old, written during the cold war.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:13 / 22.02.02
It was Pat Frank... it does sound good. I don't think the Cold War counts as really old does it? Leibowitz is a Cold War book, and I thought it was still pretty relevant (though that may be because of the unfortunate tendency 'we' - govts, media - have to see all international conflict as polarised in the same way as the Cold War, when in fact this is pretty unrealistic...) I mean, while we still have nuclear bombs hanging around, the idea's still current.

Brother in the Land is a survival book as well, and so (IIRC, which I might not) is Z for Zachariah. Funny how msot of the books I can remember about this are children's fictions... I must be regressing.

I should so reread The Plato Papers too...
 
 
Sax
10:30 / 22.02.02
God, KKC, Z for Zachariah - that suddenly evoked images of getting that dusty hardback out of the mobile library and reading it in winter in my bedroom, and positively shitting myself at the prospect of the collapse of civilisation.
 
 
Cavatina
11:23 / 22.02.02
The only post-apocalyptic fictions I can think of at the moment are dystopian novels. Angela Carter's Heroes and Villains, for example, (which I've just been hunting for and can't find, grrr) is set after a nuclear catastrophe.. As I remember it, it's really a discussion of the theories of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and their shortcomings. Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, though not p-a in the same sense, might be interesting to consider here, too. That's certainly pessimistic.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:22 / 22.02.02
Strangely enough, one of the most optimistic post-nuke books I've read is by Philip K Dick, the guy you'd SO not expect it from- "Dr Bloodmoney" is kind of a bizarre soap opera, about how community carries on even after Armageddon. Of course, being PKD, the community itself is not without its unpleasantness, but on the whole (as with most PKD, but this time with a bit less paranoia, cos let's face it, in a post-nuke future, much of the bad shit has already happened, so...) the determination of the little guy to pull through is key. (No spoilers there... apart from anything else, it was years ago I read it, and I forget much of the plot- just that it was surprisingly nice.)
 
 
Busigoth
13:45 / 23.02.02
I thought David Brin's The Postman was excellent. It takes a basically optimistic view & demonstrates how an individual willing to take a chance can make a difference. Unfortunately, it was made into a dog of a movie starring Kevin Costner. (I shouldn't be so critical of the movie; I never actually saw it.)

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Busigoth ]
 
 
Trijhaos
14:20 / 23.02.02
I thought The Postman was a decent movie, nothing to get excited about though.

Wasn't the Postman originally a short story novella type thing that got expanded into a full-blown book when the movie was made?

"The Stand" is a pretty optimistic post-apocalyptic book. I mean almost the entire human race is destroyed because of this Captain Trips virus but a small group of people band together and form a community, defeat the big bad guy evil guy, and it seems everybody will live happily ever after if you discount the epilogue where Flagg washes up on the shore of some island.
 
 
Persephone
20:21 / 23.02.02
A little thing that sticks in my head is the thon’s man measuring the concavity in the abbey floor and Kornhoer recognizing that this is shaped like “what Brother Majek calls a normal distribution curve. How strange.”

“Not strange. The probability of a footstep deviating from the center-line would tend to follow the normal error function.”

To me this suggests the whole rise and fall of civilizations--first, the bell curve that shapes birth, growth, maturity, degeneration, and death, and next the phrase “normal error function.” As if there’s simple mathematical certainty to human entropy in the long view.

Not so much pessimistic as cold.

Kit-Cat said something earlier, and I think yes it’s natural to inform post-apocalyptic fictions with pre-apocalyptic history--just coming off The Iliad, it’s a short jump to think about how much of the flowering of Greek culture was not preserved or destroyed and how people in times since have tried to piece things together from fragments and references, as they do in Leibowitz and also in The Handmaid’s Tale. And getting a lot of things wrong. Anyway where I’m going with this is, the Apocalypse doesn’t seem to me a future turning event... it’s *been* going on, for ever, it's going on now. Post-apocalyptic fictions highlight *that* for me more than anything.

On a less gruesome note... the other view I got in this book was of Paradise and that was when inspiration happens and the years of working out inspiration--when Francis gets the idea of his illuminated manuscript, when Kornhoer figures out electric light. Hey--illuminated, light. Huh. Anyway. That’s what you live for. It doesn’t have to be about you or your work surviving intact forever and ever. Maybe your life is just a moment, but it’s your moment. And other pop-psych trash.

So yeah, the long view is pretty dark and depressing... but most people don’t get the long view, anyway--except for that old guy, who’s he supposed to be?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:03 / 25.02.02
More later, but I thought perhaps he was meant to be an Ahasuerus/Wandering Jew type figure - though that doesn't explain why he says (to Francis, IIRC) that he's a 'relation' of Leibowitz.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:59 / 25.02.02
Yes, I see what you mean about the idea of the mathematical certainty of the rise, decline, fall cycle in human civilisations - and it is very interesting that you can see it in the part where he measures the dip in the stair, I hadn't picked that one at all - but I still think the notion that it is impossible to break out of that cycle both cold and pessimistic (and in a way rather romantic - pessimism can be so very romantic - 'It rains into the sea/And still the sea is salt', thank you very much AEH)... surely one still carries a vague hope (which one knows to be utterly unrealistic) that the cycle can be broken - hence the important thing about

Spoiler

the spaceship at the end is that they try and get out, but will almost certainly perpetuate the same cycles again elsewhere. It's the *hope* where there should be, and in fact probably is, none.

And I can't help thinking that the need (which seems apparent in these books as much as it is in our attachment to the fragments of ancient cultures) to have a base in the previous generations to help inform us about *who we are* might be one of the things which helps perpetuate the cycles - so the monks going off to the colonies will try and cling to the fragments of their faith which they have brought from earth.

Blah. Fuzzy.
 
 
Persephone
16:17 / 25.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
I still think the notion that it is impossible to break out of that cycle both cold and pessimistic (and in a way rather romantic - pessimism can be so very romantic - 'It rains into the sea/And still the sea is salt', thank you very much AEH)


Yeah, I think you're right. You can only be truly not pessimistic if you have zero investment in the long-term prospects of mankind--i.e., if you are not human.

Or if you're immortal, perhaps. Did you read Pyrrhus? I don't know if there's a good connection, but there's an immortal character in there, too. This striving to see ourselves from a point of view not ourselves I think is interesting...

quote:And I can't help thinking that the need (which seems apparent in these books as much as it is in our attachment to the fragments of ancient cultures) to have a base in the previous generations to help inform us about *who we are* might be one of the things which helps perpetuate the cycles

Oooh, like... if we could just *let it all go* then we might have a chance at breaking out of the cycle? That idea's tested in Leibowitz--i.e., the Simplification. Though how impossible is that? Especially for the likes of you and me?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:40 / 28.02.02
Well... for me and you... I don't know. We'd probably have been killed in the Simplification...

I felt that the book was saying that human civilisations follow this cyclical path, and that the preservation of knowledge and faith from before the previous deluge, and specifically about the deluge, is all that enables people to attempt to break out of that. So, though the thons are happy to use knowledge derived from the monks' holdings (Kornhoer's generator), they only take a partial view of that knowledge, hence the obliteration of the civilisation at the end of the book. In this case, does preserving knowledge actually make any difference whatsoever? It might as well have died during the Simplification.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:45 / 28.02.02
But I do take your point - and if I found myself in the book smugglers' situation, I would undoubtedly have done the same thing.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:22 / 01.03.02
God, am I gonna have to read that again... (it was a long time ago...)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:17 / 01.03.02
Persephone, I remember seeing another thread somewhere in which you said that we were talking about entropy over here - I had a look at the entropy thread in the Lab, but could you pull it apart for me? I can almost see it, but not quite...
 
 
Persephone
13:30 / 01.03.02
Yeah, I said that in the FILM CLUB: Vertigo thread... however, my ideas here and there are still on the half-baked side.

Give me a minute. I'll turn up the oven.

[Edited to warn, if you haven't seen Vertigo, there's massive spoilers in the film club thread.]

[ 01-03-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Persephone
23:55 / 03.03.02
OK, I'm back --sorry for taking so long...

I think this began for me with the idea of cycles. Well to tell the truth, I am a little obsessed with cycles, circles, and spirals especially, and also repetition, and I see these everywhere. But certainly in Canticle men are trapped in a recurring cycle of destruction. Kit-Kat felt that the story had a pessimistic turn, which I agree with. You can optimistically look at it and see also a cycle of regeneration--e.g., the Leibowitz monks save and preserve information until its time comes again, and civilization actually recovers to the point of being able to build a spaceship. But really it’s destruction that’s front and center in Miller’s book. Order can be created out of disorder, but disorder always comes again. That is my basic layman’s understanding of the second law of thermodynamics; and so in my mind, the stage was pretty much set for entropy to make an entrance.

But entropy actually came through a different door in my head: I mentioned the thon’s men measuring the bell-curve concavity in the abbey floor, which to me linked the events of the story to mathematical theory. Here I sort of made this po-like leap from curve to circle to spiral, and how the difference to me between a circle and a spiral is entropy. Because a system where energy flows in a perfect circle is a system where no energy is wasted. No accidents, no changes, perfect repetition. But if there is a change or an accident, the circle loses its shape. Say it becomes a spiral; it doesn’t always, but say it does. A spiral goes around and around but doesn’t go over the exact same ground.

And that’s what I see happening in Canticle. They repeat history in similar, but not the exact same, ways. I still really like the idea that their fragments of saved information send them down --perhaps doom them to-- that old nuclear path again; but one can’t imagine doing anything in their place *but* try to save things from the Simplification, one feels it’s wrong to destroy history like that. Theoretically, what could saved the world would have been the perfection of all (knowledge preserved) or the perfection of nothing (knowledge destroyed). But perfection is not possible ever. Hence, the spiral path that suggests to me entropy at work (oxymoron intended).

But you can also look at less fanciful definitions of entropy, from my dictionary either a) the amount of energy unavailable for useful work in a system undergoing change, or b) the degree of disorder in a system. Canticle has both of these in spades. In their library, the monks faithfully keep books that they don’t fully understand the contents of --i.e., the “energy” therein is unavailable for useful work. Or how about this third definition: c) in information theory, a measure of the information content of a message evaluated as to its uncertainty.

Neat.

[ 04-03-2002: Message edited by: Persephone ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:58 / 14.03.02
A couple of other book for this thread: George R. Stewart's Earth Abides, which I've only just started reading but remember hearing described as the first post-apocalypse novel, and the utterly fantastic I Am Legend by Richard Matheson.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:28 / 20.03.02
Damnation Alley by Roger Zelazny, while not amazing literature, is still a good read and isn't devoid of hope.

And, as far as I know, The Postman was always a novel. I'm not postive on that one though.

It's a good book too. Don't let Kevin Costner keep you away from it.

The Dark Tower series is sometimes considered post-apocalyptic.

Also, a great website is Post Apocalyptic Media which lists all sorts of books, movies, games, etc.

[Edited to mention that the book Damnation Alley has almost nothing in common with the movie version. Read the book. Avoid the movie.]

[ 20-03-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
grant
13:16 / 21.03.02
"The story was, when the nurse asked his father what to name the baby, he just said, 'Hell, I don't know,' and walked out the door."

Hell Tanner.

Hoo!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:02 / 21.03.02


Jan Michael Vincent just does NOT do Hell Tanner justice.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:01 / 06.08.07
Bump for great justice. As they say.

So I just finished this after starting it something like... thirteen years ago. Maybe a couple more. I must have read the first half of it four or five times, and always ended up discarding it a way into the second section. That stuff about the impending battle for control of the continent, it's not painted very clearly - the reader gets thrown straight into the middle of this ongoing situation and has to fumble around to try and place the protagonists, because it's all happening off the page and you only get to hear about it third hand. Which annoyed me and which made me pack it in.

Slightly embarrassed bump, this one - my previous post to this thread is *exactly* the kind of thing I hate otehr people doing nowadays, for one. For another, searching for the thread kicked this up - one of the attempts to get through it must have coincided with another discussion with Riz, in which he (understandably) thought I'd read the fucker through to the end. So, sorry for that, chief - I'd have cleared it up sooner, but never noticed it before.

Anyways. Before I read Leibowitz, I read a collection of Miller's short stories, currently published under the title Dark Benediction. And what's interesting is how much the central idea of Leibowitz - the collapse of civilisation/s - is at the core of nearly all of his work in that collection. There's the tale of a great city, run by automatons - all old school tech, rollers in the place of legs and the like - which has become uninhabitable after a war with another, largely because the city's central processing unit believes that the war is still ongoing, so sends out bombers to perform raids on a regular basis, even though they've long since run out of bombs. It's largely a metaphor about the demon Red Tape, but there's a covering story about a guy trying to get back in, trying to regain control of what's been lost and rebuild with what's left.

There's another about a far-future civilisation worshiping the relics of a long-dead one, not understanding that the Giant that protects the hallowed grounds is just a big robot, the curses relatively simple logic puzzles, the keys for which have been ignored or misread or something else. So that's another idea that pops up in Leibowitz: knowledge decaying over time.

There's also a lot of pretty obvious sexism, unfortunately. Woman isn't as clever as man, has a tendency to think emotionally instead of rationally. A quick slap'll sort her out. She'll prolly want to have yr babies if you threaten to kill her.

They're interesting stories, but the writing's very generic. Very much the sort of SF that you can imagine getting knocked up for inclusion in a mag. There's not even a hint of the flights of fancy in the novel - whether or not Miller was having to hold himself back or write out the really thoughtful stuff, as PKD did, I don't know. I can't understand the drastic jump in quality that the novel represents otherwise, though.

So, yeah. Leibowitz. I really love it, now. I still think that the larger political picture in the second section is fluffed quite badly, but it doesn't make much difference to the book as a whole - you can let the details wash over you, just take away an understanding of the climate of the time.

What I like the most is how Miller often appears to use the various abbots as mouthpieces for his own stream-of-consciousness thoughts on moral and ethical responsibilities, the importance of religious belief and all that guff. It really personalises the novel, makes the anger and despair have a lot more depth and justification than if it was just "meh, people are shit". And there's a fair amount of vagueness as to what Miller's point is, as the discussion between KCC and P upthread shows. Not just about his view of humanity's fate, but also in the stuff about religion - he seems to be making a strong argument in favour of religious belief as the novel draw to a close, but the abbot's final moments with Rachel could be read one of two ways and the first of the three sections of hte book seems to be... well, taking the piss out of organised relgion, really.

And I'm a bit confused, too, by the sudden disappearance of a major, previously imporant observer when it comes to the third section - the Wandering Jew is mentioned in passing once, then just drops out completely. Am I missing something obvious there? I'm not sure if his role's taken over by Mrs Graves, or what.

But yeah. Loved it. Won't be touching Wild Horse Woman, even though it's sat on my shelves, after Riz and others gave it the thumbs down.
 
 
grant
20:21 / 12.06.08
Hello, again, here at the end of things.

I've just found this: Sharon Astyk is hosting a post-apocalyptic book club on her blog, Casaubon's Book.

It may become interesting.
 
  
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