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Daily Mail Article o' the Day: A Headsick and Rage Spin-Off

 
  

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Matrixian
19:00 / 03.10.07
Assuming you're not just trolling for the sheer joy of it:...

A valid assumption.

Women should be able to visit whoever the hell they want, wherever the hell they want, 24 hours a day.

I quite agree.

Telling them they should "think twice first" is assigning blame to a victim.

I disagree. While a woman should certainly be free to travel and engage with others without inherent assumptions or risks, reality suggests that certain scenarios, circumstances, or situations might be more dangerous than others, and that one should consider this when making any decisions. A Muslim should be able to walk around a BNP stronghold and preach Islam, an atheist should be able to stand up in a hardline Islamic community and ask critical questions about Islam, a woman should not be constantly burdened by ignorant sexual assumptions wherever she goes..., etc., etc. However, I think giving these people advice and warnings about dangers is quite correct. The opposite- deliberately not warning them about certain situations- is irresponsible, in my opinion. Certainly, I would not hesitate to warn anyone, male or female, black or white, whatever, if I thought that perfectly legitimate behaviour on their part might bring them harm by people who are dangerous, intolerant and/or ignorant, especially since some people might truly be unaware that certain scenarios entail higher risks than others, or not be aware of any dangers at all.

No, I don't see how warning them is blaming them. It seems to me a necessarily cautious attitude in many modern societies/countries, and for many different types of actions. It is most unfortunate, and I wish it were not necessary to issue such warnings, but I think it is.

2. Rape isn't "frisky."

Yes, I agree that that is an unfortunate and inaccurate word to use.

A quick corollary:...Does that make any sense?

Not really. ; )
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:34 / 03.10.07
If you are genuinely interested in the potential complications involved in warning people of the possible negative side effects of their actions, especially of warning women about possible sexual violence then you might be interested in the conversation here . I’d also add that I find talk of the warnings contained in David Cocks article as particularly offensive – since I’m actually fairly sure that the vast majority of women are actually already all too aware of the potential dangers of the courses of action described, much as I’m aware that when crossing a road I may be hit by a car. By all means if an individual person is unaware of these dangers then tell them. But the assumption that these are useful warnings for the majority of women is something I find fairly foul, containing as it does an assumption that women are lacking in wisdom enough to benefit from explicit warnings of such.

Also I’d say I think it’s either naïve or disingenuous to attempt to discuss the politics of such warnings whilst barring discussion of the context. I’m reasonably sure that in general the David Cock’s of this world don’t spend time handing our rape information flyer or the like to women in nightclubs or at student unions or wherever. They don’t actually have that big an interest in actually providing useful information to unraped women, instead they show up to crow about what they feel women who have already been raped have done wrong.. And not to recognize that as part of any discussion of such warnings really leaves out a large chunk of why such comments are really pretty foul in my opinion.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
19:40 / 03.10.07
A quick corollary:...Does that make any sense?

Not really. ; )


Nor should it make sense.

That's the point.

I say to you:
"Matrixian, you should think twice about not hiring armed bodyguards around the clock, because somebody might break into your home and kill you."

And tomorrow, somebody breaks into your home and kills you, chopping you into tiny bits and feeding you to your cat.

I shrug my shoulders and say "ze had it coming, really."

That's the structure the "should think twice" sets up: if you do something, you should have known better, and it deflects blame from the person who is at fault -- in this case, the person who breaks into your home and feeds you to the cat -- and onto you, Matrixian, because you were warned that not hiring armed bodyguards 24/7 was foolish.

"But that IS foolish!" you say. "I should reasonably expect that I can stay in my own home without armed guards without somebody breaking in and feeding me to the cat!"

"Ah," I reply, "but somebody did break in and feed you to the cat. So it wasn't that foolish at all, was it?"

It's a way of saying that it is your fault you got murdered.

It's the thing that keeps Americans heavily armed and minorities "in their place."

Taking something like a specific warning about a specific situation and conflating it with a society-wide screed that all women "should think twice" before doing something they should be able to do without fear is blaming women for doing that thing; it's saying they should have "thought twice" before doing what they were perfectly entitled to do in the first place without fear and without threat.

I can see how you think giving somebody a specific warning, about a specific situation, is doing them a service. In some cases, it is.

But issuing general "warnings" about how people should or should not behave based on their gender, race, preferences, etc. isn't really a "warning" at all, is it?

Parse

"Women should think twice before going out drinking"

and

"Women shouldn't think they can go out drinking and not get into trouble."

They mean exactly the same thing.

They mean that women should expect to get into trouble if they go out to have a good time, and it's their fault if they go out drinking and get into trouble.

Which is what's called "blaming the victim."

Which is what's wrong with "think twice."
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
19:43 / 03.10.07
Also I’d say I think it’s either naïve or disingenuous to attempt to discuss the politics of such warnings whilst barring discussion of the context. I’m reasonably sure that in general the David Cock’s of this world don’t spend time handing our rape information flyer or the like to women in nightclubs or at student unions or wherever. They don’t actually have that big an interest in actually providing useful information to unraped women, instead they show up to crow about what they feel women who have already been raped have done wrong.. And not to recognize that as part of any discussion of such warnings really leaves out a large chunk of why such comments are really pretty foul in my opinion.

Also true. You can't cherry-pick one paragraph out of a noxious piece of writing and then hold it up as defensible without acknowledging where it came from and what colours the reading of said paragraph.
 
 
Matrixian
20:20 / 03.10.07
You can't cherry-pick one paragraph out of a noxious piece of writing and then hold it up as defensible without acknowledging where it came from and what colours the reading of said paragraph.

Well, I recognize that I was "cherry-picking" an isolated quote from an otherwise disagreeable article, but did state as much, and was hoping that the specific issue of warnings could be discussed without bringing up the rest of the context, since the question of warnings is relevant whether or not the article existed at all. It seemed to me that some people were disagreeing with the very concept of warnings, which strikes me as illogical.

By all means if an individual person is unaware of these dangers then tell them. But the assumption that these are useful warnings for the majority of women is something I find fairly foul, containing as it does an assumption that women are lacking in wisdom enough to benefit from explicit warnings of such.

One may not always know whether the woman in question is aware of such dangers or not. Personally, I would not automatically assume that a younger sister of mine, for example, would necessarily be aware of such things, and so I would consider it important for me to issue such warnings in case she was not. It is not necessarily an assumption of lacking wisdom; it is an attitude of "better safe than sorry". I would issue similar advice to a younger brother who decided to preach Judaism in Saudi Arabia.

That's the structure the "should think twice" sets up: if you do something, you should have known better, and it deflects blame from the person who is at fault...

Well, such deflection is surely wrong. However, I do not think that issuing a warning to, say, a young sister about to go out alone for the first time, is automatically an assumption that if anything happens to her it's her fault. That is ludicrous, in my view, and a false connection. I would not blame a child for being kidnapped and murdered, even if he disobeyed advice not to go off with strangers. I would not blame a woman for being raped, even if she deliberately placed herself in a situation that heightened her risk. The attackers must be blamed for such crimes. What I find strange is the notion that by warning a child, woman, or man about potential threats to their safety, I am automatically blaming them in case the worst should happen. I don't see how that is the case. Are parents blaming their children when they warn them about strangers, about crossing the road, and about a whole host of other potential dangers?

Again, I ask that people focus on the specific issue of warning another person- man, woman, or child- about potential threats to their safety in certain environments, and not automatically assume that I am defending the view that a woman who gets raped is somehow to blame, because I would not defend such nonsense.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:29 / 03.10.07
even if she deliberately placed herself in a situation that heightened her risk.

But what is deliberately?

I don't understand how you would make that definition of risk without blaming the woman.
 
 
Princess
20:57 / 03.10.07
There is no problem with advising people. I think the issue people are taking is not the giving of advice. It is with who is giving the advice, what the advice is implying and what the advice actually is.

"Women, beware men; you must stay away from situations where they can hurt you" is not good advice. It puts the onus for effort onto women and is essentially a limiting attitude.

A more helpful warning would be something along the lines of "women, learn self defense and develop safety networks with your friends so that you can still do what you want with a reduced fear of shittiness".

The first one excludes women and sets down an unspoken rule for women; they have to stay in "safe space" or else they have willingly taken risk onto themselves.

The second doesn't, it aims at giving women wider access and doesn't limit them to "right places".

It's still irrelevant though. Because someone has been raped. And it wasn't because they where unwise, or placed themselves in a dangerous situation, or didn't prepare for inebriation. It was because of the rapists actions, never theirs.

I think the more important thing, however, is that this kind of "advise" only really applies to rape. It's given after the fact and trys to tie blame to the victim. After a mugging no one ever says "well, he was walking home alone at night". After a woman is raped, one of the things people comment on is how drunk/alone/female/scantily clad she was.

Any effort to link rape to the victim's behaviour is wrong. There is never an invitation to rape. With other crimes, we do not dote on the victim's "invitation" to theft or violence. The fact we do it with rape is evidence of an unpleasent double standard.

I think part of the problem is that we are advising the victim, and expecting them to make the change, rather than advising the victimiser. The girls in my school where all warned about how they where at risk from rape. None of the boys got told anything about it. There was no discussion of consent with the males, but there was with the females. Our society sets women up with a dichotomy of "behave or be raped", and does not inflict a partner stupidity on men.
 
 
Spaniel
21:02 / 03.10.07
The girls in my school where all warned about how they where at risk from rape. None of the boys got told anything about it.

Fuck, that's so true. Jesus, never considered that before.
 
 
*
21:13 / 03.10.07
Or a partner sensibility on men, like "Guys, if you go out with a girl and she's having a good time, it doesn't mean she wants to have sex with you, right then or ever. And if you try to have sex with a woman and she doesn't want to, you have to stop. Only assholes and losers rape people." It's no wonder so many guys grow up thinking that if anyone talks about consent they're unreasonably imposing restrictions on the fundamental freedom to have sex however they want with whomever they want at any time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:23 / 03.10.07
Your family sounds fascinating, Matrixian. Your sister has no idea of the risks of going out, getting drunk and then getting into a secluded one-on-one situation with a "frisky" male. Your brother is a proselytising Jew with a yen to go to Saudi Arabia. Don't tell me - your dad is a happy-go-lucky watchmaker enrolled in the Witness Protection Scheme, and your mum a tough but loving Sergeant in the IDF?
 
 
Princess
21:23 / 03.10.07
Precisely.
 
 
Matrixian
22:09 / 03.10.07
Your family sounds fascinating, Matrixian. Your sister has no idea of the risks of going out, getting drunk and then getting into a secluded one-on-one situation with a "frisky" male. Your brother is a proselytising Jew with a yen to go to Saudi Arabia. Don't tell me - your dad is a happy-go-lucky watchmaker enrolled in the Witness Protection Scheme, and your mum a tough but loving Sergeant in the IDF?

I was giving hypothetical scenarios.

But even if I was not, I am not sure I understand your point. Please explain.
 
 
HCE
23:07 / 03.10.07
I think the point is that your hypothetical situations sound improbable. It's not really possible to completely separate warnings from their context, is it? Your examples stop the context at 'clueless person I care about in situation of peril' and don't go on to include anything larger in the world. In your example, you want to address the improbable cluelessness rather than the root causes of the peril.
 
 
Andria
23:08 / 03.10.07
I would not blame a child for being kidnapped and murdered, even if he disobeyed advice not to go off with strangers. I would not blame a woman for being raped, even if she deliberately placed herself in a situation that heightened her risk ... Are parents blaming their children when they warn them about strangers, about crossing the road, and about a whole host of other potential dangers?

I think this analogy illustrates pretty well how patriarchal and condescending this attitude is. Women are not children, should not be treated as if they are, and men are not their parents.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:25 / 04.10.07
I think the point is that your hypothetical situations sound improbable.

Ludicrous rather than improbable, but essentally yes. Alas is very good about a similar thing when MattShepherd was imagining an academic argument, if I recall correctly. The academic argument being imagined was:

So what happens when two people have different interpretations of something and they disagree? If I have a well-developed theory that Betty and Veronica is a veiled examination of post-industrial alienation, but Joey has a well-developed theory that Betty and Veronica is in fact a subtle overview of non-Euclidean geometry, and we both insist the other's reading is misguided, are we both "bad readers" or "good readers"? I've done more research into post-industrial alienation and have written a 5,000-word essay on the comic in question, but Joey has a PhD in geometry and has analyzed the entire issue pixel by pixel. And we are both stridently denoucning the others' views. We've both done the work, but we're denying the other person the right to their interpretation. Who gets to be "good"?

It gets harder when we move away from things that are more-or-less obviously metaphorical/mutli-layered on the surface, too.

F'rinstance, what if I believe that a two-page bit in Archie #787 where Hot Dog eats the Jones' Thanksgiving turkey because Arch and Jugs are down at the Chok'lit Shoppe scarfing hamburgers is in fact a stunning commentary on the American internment camps of World War II? The author's intent to tell a short funny story about Hot Dog eating the turkey is obviously irrelevant, and anyone who tries to tell me that no, it's really just a gag about a dog that eats a turkey is "bad", yes?


Alas responded:

MattShepherd, I think your point is that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and that's absolutely right--as a lit teacher, I also regularly have to pull students back from leaping into "symbolic readings" that just don't work. And they don't work often for the same reasons that your argument above doesn't really work for me: it's utterly abstract, not grounded in an actual text. Your examples are clearly hypothetical arguments--there is no Joey and you are not making the B&V argument.

Do academics engage in arcane arguments over, ultimately, probably not very relevant issues? Sure, we make jokes about this all the time (a regular catch-phrase in academe is "because the stakes are so low" which is the punch line to a joke: "Why are academic arguments so fierce and poisonous?"). But while, yeah, there's a grain of truth to that--i.e., that one can lose sight of a larger perspective when engaged in heated debates over details--it's also a joke that's regularly and nastily made by outsiders with an anti-intellectual agenda; people who not only don't really understand the way academic argument works (i.e., in your argument with Joey WHY are you putting his argument down? You don't know, because it's a made up argument: i.e., there ARE NO STAKES in your imaginary argument) but they don't WANT it to work at some level. They WANT there to be no there there.

That is basically never true in a fierce academic debate: something IS at stake, and it is usually, in fact, virtually always something important, real, and vital to our human lives on this planet, even if it's "just about comics." But it's a lot easier for people to trivialize others than to understand them.


Likewise, really. These examples have no weight. No heft. They are unreal.
 
 
Ex
07:57 / 04.10.07
I just wanted to throw in a quick query on one of the most basic assumptions in this debate (not just here, but everywhere else I've seen it raised) - that the 'warnings' that one might give a woman about the risk levels of her activities are accurate and reasonable.

I have no idea, for example, how much I actually elevated my risk level of sexual assault when walking home on my own in a large town late at night. I suspect that wasn't, on paper, as risky as having relationships with chaps, which I did at the same time. Stranger attacks are much rarer than assault by someone you know and/or are involved with.

However, friends were happy to warn me about the dangers of me walking around on my own, but greeted news that I had hooked up with a chap - practically any chap, frankly - with squeeks, coos and general glee.

I think most people would find the suggestion that I not date men at all an insane paranoid reaction, and a frightful imposition on my life. But few people seemed to find the suggestion that I never go anywhere after dark without a man much of an imposition. (Obviously, I'm offering these at two ends of the spectrum - there's the question of how much it would affect your life, v. how much you'd get back in return.)

But in this discussion I often see the 'facts' of risk and danger presented as neutral, and only the 'warning' or passing on of those facts as a loaded act. I suspect the 'facts' are also quite loaded - and I wouldn't be surprised if which facts get circulated has as much to do with sucky gender stereotypes as it does with actual levels of risk and the promotion of safety.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
08:21 / 04.10.07
Yes I'd agree with that. It sort of dovetails with something I'd been groping towards with the original quote, in that as well as the mysogyny it also contains some pretty icky and unsubtantiated assumptions about males in general and footballers in particular as well.

I think you are right to point out that the level of risk attached to some of the courses of action described is probably vastly inflated, and I think that those assumptions are in fact damaging and offensive to everyone.

As I think Princess was getting at the whole attitude points towards trying to 'educate' women through fear of men, which really hurts everyone in the long run. A strong, clear message that rape is never, ever justified, and is always the fault only of the rapist, certainly not of the women, but also not of some fundamental flaw in males as a gender, is really the only one that doesn't diminish all of us.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:21 / 05.10.07
God knows, if you want to find reasons to hate Ann Coulter you don't have to look for more than about .02 of a second, so why is the best that CiF can manage is to not criticise her beliefs but to say she shows too much bare skin on her book covers?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
04:49 / 05.10.07
Hmmm, is it me or are the mail and CiF increasingly two heads of the same drooling, imbecilic beast?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:35 / 05.10.07
It's looking that way at times. I have to remind myself that while Guardian Opinion pieces appear in CiF, CiF pieces don't necessarily appear in the Guardian.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:31 / 17.10.07
I'm being persecuted because haters are jealous that I'm beautiful.

Wow, there goes my sympathy for your situation running after the last bus out of town.

The GP told relatives she has been portrayed as a bad parent because she is slim and does not look traditionally maternal.

The fuck she has.

In an astonishing outburst she told her mother: 'If I weighed another two stone, had a bigger bosom and looked more maternal, people would be more sympathetic.'

Who wrote that article a few weeks ago about all the children who have gone missing since Madeleine disappeared who HAVEN'T had the advantage of a massive media campaign asking for people to help? Are the McCann's so sheltered from reality they think every incident gets the countries media camping out for months on end?

I have ten shiny pennies to give to the first person to put up a 'leave Kate McCann alone' parody of the Britney Spears video that was on YouTube last month.
 
 
■
10:43 / 17.10.07
Wow, it's comments like Peaceful Ger's

There was no discussion of consent with the males, but there was with the females.

that remind me how this place can suddenly hit you with a very important fact when you're not expecting it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:34 / 13.11.07
Daily Mail suggest the punishment for those few men convicted of rape should be lower because almost all women are sluts.
 
 
Evil Scientist
05:22 / 13.11.07
Um...I...I...ah.

WHAT THE FUCK?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
05:49 / 13.11.07
Bloody hell. There aren't any words are there?
 
 
Janean Patience
06:25 / 13.11.07
Juries' general reluctance to convict men on rape charges: correctly observed.

Conclusion drawn from this: so fucking wrong it's beyond comprehension.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
07:02 / 13.11.07
Does that fact that if one had asked me yesterday if I thought even the Daily Mail had the sheer front to publically advocate reduced sentances for rapists I would have been sure they didn't, make me a naive idiot?

I would have reckoned the bastards probably thought it, but it still manages the actually shock me that they're saying it.
 
 
Janean Patience
08:04 / 13.11.07
Perhaps you didn't realise that it's okay to write an article feeling sorry for the poor rapists if it's a woman writing it. An approach used by the Mail at least three times a week in articles like "Feminism? No thanks!" and "Sexual harrassment? It's a compliment!"
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:54 / 13.11.07
Why did I have to go and read this thread? Now I want to set fire to things.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
11:28 / 13.11.07
Got to watch out for those Feminist Cabals Sarler mentions. I have one at the bottom of my garden at the moment, and it is playing bloody havoc with the begonias.

This Daily Mail report on Amanda Knox, flatmate of Meredith Kercher and suspect in her murder investigation, is particularly revolting, being a near-pornographic description of what it calls 'Foxy Knoxy's' 'Twisted World', which on closer inspection seems to involve nothing more than rock climbing, youthful boozing, not smoking weed, and writing short stories influenced by Bret Easton Ellis. Knox may or may not have had a hand in this terrible murder, but the Mail's report really does seem designed to encourage its readers to feverishly rub one out over and above anything else. Yuk.

Some interesting analysis of the Mail's attitude to the case here
 
 
Papess
11:47 / 13.11.07
Could someone over there in the UK give Steve Moxon of Sheffield a THUD on the head? kthanxbai.
 
 
_pin
11:56 / 13.11.07
Not only is it written by a woman, but it's written by a woman who, if she was raped, would like to see her attacker recieve a single year in prison, because it's not her brother on trial only by the grace of God.

I can't really get angry, in these circumstances. It would appear to be a case of such catastrophic failrue of self esteem that anger isn't really in order. Medical attention from sympathetic and gentle helath care profesionals is in order.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:57 / 13.11.07
Woman who falsely cried rape EIGHT times is spared jail.

Don't read the comments. Really don't, because Mike P from Ottery St Mary, Ian Millard, Keith from Merseyside, Lee from Liverpool, Mrs T Missenden, Stan Still, Steve H, Linda from New York, Dino Fancellu, Abi from Shropshire and Howard Glynn are all inhuman fucksticks of the highest order. Jail the mentally ill! Arseholes!
 
 
Papess
12:07 / 13.11.07
Nooooo! I had to look.
 
 
Princess
13:43 / 13.11.07
Urgh. Headsick and rage.
 
  

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