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Poetry! HURGH! What is it good for?

 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:08 / 05.07.01
I wandered lonely as a crowd
Of protestors did wail and mill
When all at once I saw the proud
And stalwart truncheons of the Bill -
Banging on heads, ignoring all pleas
And forcing the populace down to its knees.


Is poetry ever capable of success as a political medium, or does it appeal to too narrow a range of people? Is this a failure of poetry? Or are modern poets just milksops?
 
 
Unencumbered
09:08 / 05.07.01
I don't see why poetry shouldn't be useful in this way, although you've conjured up a wonderful mental image of the leaders of the major parties engaged in a televised debate and speaking entirely in rhyming couplets.

But I digress. Poetry, especially of the simple kind (see above) still has, IMO, a certain appeal to the masses. I could certainly see limericks, for instance, being used to good effect, since they're a form which almost everyone is familiar with. There can't be many people who haven't written one or two.

Just as with any other medium, you'd simply have to tailor it to its intended target. You wouldn't necessarily use the same poem to make a point with Guardian readers and Sun readers (if anyone can ever be said to 'read' the Sun).
 
 
pebble
09:08 / 05.07.01
If poetry is to be used for a larger audience (for example in political usage) I think it will have to be made more accessable. As brillient as Blake is, to see the subtlies of what he's trying to get across you need to study and think about what he's saying in a way most people won't be bothered to.

Thats not to say all poetry should be simple and easy, but if its to a wider audience the poet needs to take this into account.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
09:08 / 05.07.01
I think the problem with poetry as a critical tool is that there's a bit of a divide in how it's perceived; it's either Blake-level obscure and difficult, or it's Hallmark Cards-level twee and simple. And this doesn't give confidence in the message. Books can have Seriousness with pertinence to the real world, but that kind of gravitas with relation to fact seems to be lacking in poetry.

Limericks and doggerel have been used in the past in a critical vein: Gilbert and Sullivan's operettas were written in a light way, and managed to make digs at society in a number of places, but their jibes don't carry too much weight. Yeah, "I Am The Very Model Of A Modern Major-General" is a fairly deprecating portrait of an out-to-pasture military stereotype, but it's seen as diverting, not considered.

Unfortunately, the popular forms - Nick mentioned limericks - are also imbued with an air of nonsense; a rhyme that began "There once was a Tory named Haig" might hold the ultimate kernel of political truth, but people will associate it with a body of work that usually begins "There once was a man names 'Enis'." and disregard accordingly. Which is a shame, I think; think of how emotive poetry can be - certainly far more than prose, in some cases - and imagine how useful a tool that could be for commentary.

I think maybe the problem is that poetry's seen as somewhat irrelevant to the realm of debate. It's either disposable or impenetrable - the accessible is seen as a bit below-par in these post-ironic days, and I can't figure out how that could be remedied.

Is there scope for serious poetic contemplation of current events that doesn't lapse into McGonagall awfulness? I can't see it, unfortunately.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
11:52 / 05.07.01
Out of curiosity, has English poetry ever had such a political charge? I just think of Pablo Neruda in Chile, giving a reading in a football stadium. At one point he stopped reading because he was hearing a strange noise, and immediately realised it was the sound of thousands of voices reciting his poem along with him; they knew it by heart.

Now that's what I call poetry! I've never seen English-speaking audiences rely on writers so much...is it just not a form that reaches the public? I don't know. But it makes me want to live in South America.
 
 
imaginaryboy
12:10 / 05.07.01
Oooh, poetry, one of my favorite topics!

Okay, first of all, are you talking about poetry or poems? Poems are poetry but poetry isn't necessarily poems. Poetry can include performance art, theatre, cinema, advertisement, agitprop, dance, "happenings", songs, flowery Victorian verse, sparse Japanese poems & paintings (same thing in Asia), collage, poster art, graffiti, Dada & neo-Dada, and much much more.
So, yes, I would say poetry is still incredibly relevant. As a performance poet, I see my role (when I'm feeling not-so-humble) as reminding the "audience" that they, too, are poets--everyone's a poet--& inviting them to play. Cos that's what poetry is: Play.
 
 
ephemerat
13:22 / 05.07.01
quote:Originally posted by wembley:
Out of curiosity, has English poetry ever had such a political charge?


Shelley instantly comes to mind. Take a look at The Mask of Anarchy:
Written on the Occasion of the Massacre at Manchester.

quote:Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number -
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.


He certainly thought poetry was a great way to disseminate politics, science and human wisdom in general. Check out his A Defence of Poetry where he describes poetry as a means of philosophical distribution:

quote:Poetry is ever accompanied with pleasure: all spirits on which it falls, open themselves to receive the wisdom which is mingled with its delight. In the infancy of the world, neither poets themselves nor their auditors are fully aware of the excellency of poetry: for it acts in a divine and unapprehended manner, beyond and above consciousness...
 
 
grant
14:58 / 05.07.01
Poetry as political critique:

Well, rhymed couplets make great chants at protests (as well as catchy internal anthems, repeating the message over and over).

And then there's the real thing.

When this came out, it was still widely believed that war was a valiant and beautiful expression of nationhood; tragic, sure, but still a worthwhile endeavor.
The poet was a veteran who, in fact, died in the trenches after writing this piece.
It helped define the birth of the madness of the 20th Century, a world driven insane by war and the horrible false promise of technology.

quote:Wilfred Owen
Dulce Et Decorum Est

-----

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.



Here's a link to the a non-ironic use of the same famous line -- it's from Horace, and means "Sweet and proper it is to die for one's country."

My favorite line is "an ecstasy of fumbling" -- that's so expressive of terror and hope and despair inside that literal movement, trying to get the damn gas mask on before the mustard gas turns your lungs into cooked sausage.

Then there's this one. More of a social commentary, I first read it on this board many, many reboots ago. The more I read it, the more I like it.
The idea of living cities is sort of inherent in it, and the social commentary is still very, very relevant.

It's named for the date Hitler invaded Poland.

quote: September 1, 1939
W. H. Auden

-----

I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night.

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
From Luther until now
That has driven a culture mad,
Find what occurred at Linz,
What huge imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

Exiled Thucydides knew
All that a speech can say
About Democracy,
And what dictators do,
The elderly rubbish they talk
To an apathetic grave;
Analysed all in his book,
The enlightenment driven away,
The habit-forming pain,
Mismanagement and grief:
We must suffer them all again.

Into this neutral air
Where blind skyscrapers use
Their full height to proclaim
The strength of Collective Man,
Each language pours its vain
Competitive excuse:
But who can live for long
In an euphoric dream;
Out of the mirror they stare,
Imperialism's face
And the international wrong.

Faces along the bar
Cling to their average day:
The lights must never go out,
The music must always play,
All the conventions conspire
To make this fort assume
The furniture of home;
Lest we should see where we are,
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good.

The windiest militant trash
Important Persons shout
Is not so crude as our wish:
What mad Nijinsky wrote
About Diaghilev
Is true of the normal heart;
For the error bred in the bone
Of each woman and each man
Craves what it cannot have,
Not universal love
But to be loved alone.

From the conservative dark
Into the ethical life
The dense commuters come,
Repeating their morning vow;
"I will be true to the wife,
I'll concentrate more on my work,"
And helpless governors wake
To resume their compulsory game:
Who can release them now,
Who can reach the deaf,
Who can speak for the dumb?

All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

Defenceless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.


Some of the echoes in the poem:

Madness.
Nijinsky and Diaghelev were the lead dancer and choreographer in Stravinsky's 'Rite of Spring' -- both were famously hard to get along with. Nijinsky was also famously insane.

German nationalism:
"From Luther until now..." as Luther freed Germany from the Pope...

"Find what occurred at Linz,"
According to, of all things, an episode guide to Gene Roddenberry's "Andromeda," this line refers to a famous school visit by Hitler in 1938, in which Austria was annexed to Germany.

"Exiled Thucydides" was a disgraced Athenian general who wrote a critical account of the Peleponnesian Wars. According to my just-now-looked-up research, he viewed the regime which booted him up as a bit... totalitarian.
Here's some more on him, a bit dry, but concise enough and well linked.

"The lights must never go out," quotes the 1914 British government statement "The lamps are going out all over Europe and we shall not see them lit again in our lifetime."

And here's the thing -- if you really just sit and read the poem, you don't need to know all that. It still hits right in the chest.

And, unlike a lot of social commentary, it has the foresight and good grace to end on an up note. To show a direction for the future, even.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
18:50 / 05.07.01
I won't for a moment argue that English-speaking poets haven't drawn on political events and ideas for inspiration, or that they haven't responded to social issues with their words. What I'm questioning is how much currency this holds for their audiences - why do some areas of the world seem to care more about their poetry than others, and/or why does political poetry seem to carry more weight (if it does at all) elsewhere?

Questions. Good.
 
 
imaginaryboy
19:19 / 05.07.01
quote:why do some areas of the world seem to care more about their poetry than others, and/or why does political poetry seem to carry more weight (if it does at all) elsewhere?

I can't speak for any other English-speaking country, but here in the US, I chalk it up to 2 main reasons.

1) US culture on a whole is very suspicious of literacy. Books that use big words, music that is in any way intelligent or witty, people who are learned, any "ism" besides American-style capitalism--America looks at them with a suspicious eye. (Which is a big reason, I think, for why our schools, overall, suck.)

2) US culture also (& probably relatedly) is suspicious of earnest political rhetoric. Our two political parties different on some issues that many reporters call "key", but they don't differ on any traditional political lines (in the way that, say, European political parties do). Watching the debates between GW & Gore, it was amazing to see just how often the 2 agreed on platform issues, like the death penalty & reducing taxes. Sure, they disagreed on HOW to do stuff, but they agreed on WHY.

So, combine the two (literate politics), & you're guaranteed to alientate most of the American public, save for the weirdoes on the fringe (like any Americans on this forum).
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:55 / 05.07.01
quote:Originally posted by wembley:
why do some areas of the world seem to care more about their poetry than others, and/or why does political poetry seem to carry more weight (if it does at all) elsewhere?

You mentioned South America in an earlier post - I assume that's where you're referring to. I'd suggest - bearing in mind that I'm not an expert on the political history of most SA countries - that poetry was, initially, one of the artforms or communicative styles that wasn't clamped down or censored. Rather, it wasn't censored as immediately and successfully, as say, for example, the newspaper/book industries. And it's oral - a link in with the troubadour tradition which I believe is a larger component of popular culture there than here. Obviously, where poetry is the outlet for the voice of the people, it'll be more popular than elsewhere - in South America, presumably, it has remained revolutionary instead of twee. The processes of creation are the same here and there, but that which the poets are reacting against is different, and it's that strength and importance that gives it its power.

Figaro9: I applaud your critique of the US, but can't quite understand your initial post: you seem to be working other disciplines into the definition of poetry - can you clarify? I'm aware that performance has a large role in poetry - they are texts that have an oral or performance aspect - but I don't see how poetry on a poster or in calligraphic form is any different - it's just another way of presenting it. It's still a composition of words, no matter how abstractedly displayed.

Grant: excellent post.

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Rothkoid ]
 
 
deletia
10:11 / 06.07.01
Although it is interesting, albeit largely irrelevant, to note that Grant describes as "totalitarian" a government which was run according to the principles of constant plebiscite which have been advanced as the logical and desirable progression of governmental systems elsewhere on this BBS. Which may have resonances for literature as historical resource, for for the difficulty of identifying the force of literature after the interceding of time (who is this Castlereigh dude anyway?), or for the impossibility if neutral language.
 
 
methylsalicylate
10:41 / 06.07.01
quote:
I can't speak for any other English-speaking country, but here in the US, I chalk it up to 2 main reasons.

1) US culture on a whole is very suspicious of literacy. Books that use big words,


Like The Sheltering Sky, Carpenter's Gothic, V , Mason & Dixon? Yeah, they barely sold.


quote:
music that is in any way intelligent or witty,


Like those critical and commercial flops, free jazz and rap?

quote:
people who are learned,


...which explains why William Safire and Noam Chomsky are doing so badly...

quote:
2) US culture also (& probably relatedly) is suspicious of earnest political rhetoric.


Arlen Spector, the late Lawton Chiles...

Honey, you've gotta get out of Kansas.
 
 
methylsalicylate
10:43 / 06.07.01
(err... make that Missouri. Insert usual Mark Twain anecdote here)

ObPoetry: I find Louise Gluck to be interesting without being unapproachable.
 
 
Cavatina
11:23 / 06.07.01
Simple and accessible poems which overturn or rewrite myths can be powerful political starting points for the young. I've found the following one to be frequently singled out for comment by 15-16 year old girls.

Eve

Let's face it
Eden was a bore
nothing to do
but walk naked in the sun
make love
and talk
but no one had any problems
to speak of
nothing to read
a swim
or lunch might seem special;
even afternoon tea wasn't invented
nor wine
a nap might be a highlight
no radio
perhaps they sang a bit
but as yet no one had made up
many songs

and after the honeymoon
wouldn't they be bored
walking and talking

with never a worry in the world
they didn't need to invent an atom
or prove the existence of God
no it had to end
Eve showed she was the bright one
bored witless by Adam
no work
and eternal bliss
she saw her chance
they say the snake tempted her to it
don't believe it
she bit because she hungered to know
the clever thing
she wasn't kicked ou
she walked out

KATE LLEWELLYN
 
 
imaginaryboy
12:05 / 06.07.01
Rothkoid:
quote:but I don't see how poetry on a poster or in calligraphic form is any different - it's just another way of presenting it. It's still a composition of words, no matter how abstractedly displayed.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Poetry doesn't have to have words at all. There's a long tradition, for example, of visual Native American poetry. Plus, modern visual poetry that does or does not have words in it. And a whole lot of other stuff in between. Check out Jerome Rothenberg's brilliant collections Technicians of the Sacred, Shaking the Pumpkin, and the two-volume Poems for the Millennium. And ubuweb.
So, a "poster poem" could be words in cool typography. It could just be a long page of Times New Roman in a rant. Or it could have no words at all.

methylsalicylate:
quote:Honey, you've gotta get out of Kansas.

Damn straight! But I wasn't basing my observations from only Kansas, but from having grown up in California, Michigan, New York, Iowa, Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, & England, and having also lived (since I graduated from college) in Massachusetts, North Carolina, Ecuador, & Japan.

And having worked in a bookstore for 3 years (and public libraries for around the same) I can tell you that for every sale or checkout of Thomas Pynchon, there are hundreds of sales or checkouts of insipid self-help books & shite fantasy & romance & mystery novels. Free jazz doesn't sell nearly as well as N'Sync, & Public Enemy & Digable Planets don't sell nearly as well as Eminem (nor can you find as much free jazz and intelligent hiphop on the radio as you can not-so-intelligent stuff--& that's having driven all over the US without a working tape player in my car, so all I had to listen to was the radio).

That being said, of course I was generalizing. I do stand by that generalization, though. As a whole (which mean, yes there are exceptions), American culture doesn't value intelligence or education or intellectualism nearly as much as many other cultures do. On a different forum I regularly post on, I identified myself as an anarchist & was immediately tagged (by some fellow Americans) as a "college intellectual dandy"--"Yeah, I knew people in college who would fall for dumb beliefs like that, but thank god they grew out of them." Completely ignoring (or ignorant of) the fact that in many other countries, identifying yourself as an anarchist is not inherently "intellectual", nor is it necessarily laughed at. (Argued with, sure--as a political philosophy to be argued with, rather than a "pie in the sky", "ivory tower" intellectual wankjob.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:28 / 10.07.01
I am actually wondering whether it is less to do with the audience failing to appreciate poetry as a medium and more to do with the failure of poetry as a public medium, especially in English where the lyric - a form which is suited to personal reflection rather than grandiloquent statement - currently holds sway. The 'speeding-up' phenomenon which has been noted in other cultural areas may have something to do with this - it's easier to digest a short lyric than a longer work. It's certainly noticeable that many of the Irish poets prefer to engage with the Troubles on a personal level rather than a public one.

Perhaps the British also mistrust 'public' poetry because of years of ghastly verse courtesy of the Laureates; 'Rain-Charm for the Duchy', anyone?

[ 10-07-2001: Message edited by: Macavity ]
 
 
matsya
09:49 / 10.07.01
Russian and other "soviet bloc" poets during the era of the soviet union were regularly targeted as dangerous subversives on the basis of their poetry. Being a Russian poet in the era of the Cold War was a dangerous and VERY political occupation.

But on the topic of poetry and audiences and such, why are we simply focussing on poetry? what about the internationally experienced disinterest in crochet? in croquet? why isn't tiddlywinks more recognised as a force for social change? why don't lots of people read comics? how come more people go to see James Cameron films than Hal Hartley films?

it's a fookin' outrage, 'tis.

m.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:49 / 10.07.01
Just because this is the books forum and I thought it would be good if we talked about poetry because we never do; and because it seemed more interesting than 'what's your favourite poem'.

The question whether we should expect poetry to do anything is valid, though. Perhaps poetry has ceased to do and now simply is (rather like some paintings).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:49 / 10.07.01
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was Auden who said (although he could have been quoting someone): "Poetry makes nothing happen."

Which is interesting, because on one level i think he's right and it's something people (poets in particular) should bear in mind to prevent them producing tedious self-important wank. On the other hand, Auden's poems (and thanks grant for quoting that one in full, it's one of the best) have probably affected my attitudes towards certain things, so on another level poetry clealry can make something happen. Just on a personal, individual level. Sadly people tend to interpret this these days as meaning that it can't have a political charge, but I think that's another unfortunate consequence of the way we've been taught to see 'personal' and 'political' as two distinct areas of discourse, with no overlap.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:49 / 10.07.01
I think that might have something to do with the hangover from the enlightenment - Habermas's theory of private and public spheres may well shed some light on this. Scuse me while I dig out my lecture notes...
 
 
matsya
10:38 / 10.07.01
yeah, sorry macavity, i was a mite cranky (and let's hear it again - NEVER post cranky) when I posted... this is actually a good and interesting discussion. I read it quickly first and posted, thinking it was the 'why aren't more poets famous?' conversation, which I hate.

It's not, though. So sorry.

m.
 
  
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