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Tantric practice and lust.

 
  

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Stigma Enigma
09:27 / 18.09.07
Just a topic that's been ruminating inside my head the last few months.....thought it was time to start something new on here, anyways, so here goes....

I experienced my first kundalini awakening this last summer and it resulted in a nonstop chi explosion that led me to admit myself into a hospital for six days to recover from the excess energy levels that I could no longer tame. One of the doctors I met with had a background in Chinese philosophy and religion and suggested the idea that what I had experienced was actually demonic possession. He followed this statement by doing some sort of Vulcan Bruce Lee-ish deathgrip and releasing a lot of tension I had in my neck, for which I thanked him profusely...

So, my reeling self was suddenly caught between exploring my inner bioenergy and committing one of the seven deadly sins..and now I wonder...where do the lines blur between a successful tantric practice and an excessive focus on the sexual or physical (what might be called lustfulness, although your definition may vary...)

An important issue for me is the difference between thinking sexually and acting sexually upon those thoughts. What that boils down to is keeping the demon in check, whether it be an actual entity or just my own darker side rearing its ugly nature.

Looking back on my experience, I'd say it was a combination of both possession and awakening...I found a text document I had created the evening before hospitalization that I really feel was Asmodeus speaking through me, and yet the entire experience as a whole has been overwhelmingly helpful to me as time has gone by.

I just want to open up discussion on what I find to be an interesting combination of systems and see how each of you reconcile the two, if at all.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:12 / 18.09.07
If your magical practice is hospitalising you for six days, whatever you are doing, stop doing it so much.

It's difficult to respond to your post as it seems packed with ideas and assumptions about kundalini, chi, demonology and tantrik practice that I'm not sure I really agree with, and which could certainly do with some unpacking and examination. You seem to be making statements about things like Tantra and Asmodeus and assuming that everyone else here has the same understanding of these terms that you do - without really telling us what these terms mean to you. From what I can infer from your post, I'd hazard a guess that others here might have radically different understandings of these terms and ideas. Not being funny, but on the basis of this post, you come across as more than a bit flaky at the moment – and with nothing else to go on, Occam's razor is doing its stuff. My alarm bells are ringing, and I am concerned that you are having some sort of manic episode which, whilst it may be tempting and comforting to relate to in occult terms, this might not be the healthiest lens through which to view it. It might help if you told us a bit more about what you were actually doing and why you were doing it, and also defining what you actually mean when you say things like "waking the kundalini" and "chanelling Asmodeus" because I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. These things can have radically different meanings from person to person.

Don't get me wrong, I understand how an intense magical practice can sometimes wake up difficult material and be a flash point for crisis - healing or otherwise. But if you are hospitalising yourself - then you want to take a long, hard look at other factors that might be going on around you and make a cold and sceptical assessment of the value and validity of your practice. You owe it to yourself.

I'm also rather disturbed by this alleged physician who is planting ideas of demonic possession in your head. What the fuck is that all about?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:06 / 18.09.07
Leaving aside the worrying implications of medical health professionals diagnosing "demonic possession"... I would suggest that what someone coming from a background in chinese medicine and "chinese philosophy" (whatever that means, another vague term that could refer to any number of things) means by "demonic possession" might be a totally different kettle of fish from the western grimoire notion of demonic possession that you seem to be reading into it.

As far as I am aware, Asmodeus and the whole Goetic crew do not feature too heavily in Chinese traditional belief. What a Taoist might describe as a "demon" is not necessarily the same as what a ceremonial magician might describe as a demon (assuming you could get two ceremonial magicians to agree on a definition). Something might be getting completely lost in translation here.
 
 
illmatic
11:06 / 18.09.07
What Gypsy said really.

As far as I can read it:

1) You've had an intense energetic experience, which hopsitialied you.

2) A doctor (WTF!!) has suggested that this might be due to demonic possession, an idea you've run with.

3) You've linked 2) in with some writing you've done (channeled)

4) This is somehow tied in with the surpression of lust, with lust also being characterised as demonic.

I don't really understand the links you are making, tbh. They may be clear to you, but this doesn't necessarily mean they will be understood by anyone else.

I really just want to suggest you have a good lie down, and relax. If you end up revaluating your experience in any way, I'd suggest trying to concentrate on what happened physically rather than any metaphyiscal or mental overlays and interpretations that you are putting on the experience. It's not always easy to pull the two apart, but when you are in something of a manic state, it's easy to start running away with crazy ideations which feedback into your physical state, and make things more intense. To be avoided if possible.

Take it easy, relax and don't rush to judgement about your experience too quickly. Do grounding stuff - eating for one, solid sleep, and whatever else you do to get back down.

And if you are still doing whatever you were doing before hopsitalisation, stop it immediately.
 
 
grant
15:33 / 18.09.07
One of the doctors I met with had a background in Chinese philosophy and religion and suggested the idea that what I had experienced was actually demonic possession.

My sister's a TCM practitioner and I don't think this makes a lick of sense. I can ask, if you like, but I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.
 
 
Olulabelle
21:18 / 18.09.07
I experienced my first kundalini awakening this last summer and it resulted in a nonstop chi explosion that led me to admit myself into a hospital for six days to recover from the excess energy levels that I could no longer tame. One of the doctors I met with had a background in Chinese philosophy and religion and suggested the idea that what I had experienced was actually demonic possession.

I think it might help if you explained a bit what actually happened to you that meant you felt had this Kundalini awakening. How did you know that's what it was? I can't help but feel as if you are talking about Kundalini as if it was a firework going off or something, rather than say, a slow spiritual development.

Also I am afraid of your doctor and think you ought to get another one.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:37 / 18.09.07
I am afraid of your doctor and think you ought to get another one.

I concur.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
00:33 / 19.09.07
Part of the Taoist conception of the afterlife involves a purgatory/hell that consists of 9 levels or stages of punishment, each ruled over by a Demon-King which may or may not be analogous to Goetic demons (I don't know).

Part of the Taoist conception of immortality involves the creation of a 'spirit embryo' into which a person can leave their physical body, however the exit must be made slowly/carefully to avoid possession by a demon.

Just out of curiosity FM, when you had this experience was your tongue touching the roof of your mouth?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
00:42 / 19.09.07
Some introductory essays on mystical physiology can be found here.

The Taoist one states: -

The spirit is united with vitality in the lower cinnabar field forming an immortal fetus. Under the constant pressure of the pre-natal vitality and spirit through the "circulation of the light" in the grand heavenly orbit the ni-wan center emits ambrosia which, descending via the involuntary course nurtures the immortal seed, the developing fetus. At this point all breathing stops and embryonic breathing takes over.

Concentration upon the fetus gives rise to a golden light, a golden elixir, within the white light in the ni-wan. With the union of these two, the immortal fetus is ready to emerge. The practitioner "should now 'stir the thought' of leaping into the great emptiness which will open the heavenly gate at the top of the head so that spirit can leave the human body to appear In countless bodies in space.[xxx] Exit from the body must be cultivated slowly and with great care lest a demon take possession of the body. Eventually, through further cultivation consciousness returns to emptiness.

 
 
illmatic
05:48 / 19.09.07
Part of the Taoist conception of immortality involves the creation of a 'spirit embryo' into which a person can leave their physical body, however the exit must be made slowly/carefully to avoid possession by a demon.

Yeah, 'cos obviously this is exactly what happened. Thanks for clearing that up, Mako!

Just out of curiosity FM, when you had this experience was your tongue touching the roof of your mouth?

For 6 days?

NGGGGGGHHHHHHHH
 
 
Stigma Enigma
09:26 / 19.09.07
I should have pointed out that this happened back in June and this is me now looking back more rationally at what occurred. I introduced the topic here to open up discussion and I'm glad it has. Although I appreciate the advice and agree with you Gypsy that my own definitions and assumptions may be far different from everyone else's here, this is a discussion board and I'm glad we have shifted away from criticism of the poster into a more critical analysis of the topics I so sloppily spilled out initially. I come here seeking wisdom to both expand and complicate my limited notions, not to stagnate and stand fixed in "flaky" thinking. Cool?

Just out of curiosity FM, when you had this experience was your tongue touching the roof of your mouth?

I definitely overdid it with breathing exercises, I really learned the power of breathwork through this experience and got caught up in forces completely beyond my control. I had been practicing my uijayi breath a lot, which as I was taught places the tongue at the roof of the mouth, but my understanding and experience found this to be an inhibitory practice more than anything.

You wouldn't believe my efforts to ground ground ground just to counter these spikes of what might be called chi by some. I know there is a whole thread on here about the problem with throwing out a word like "energy" so I'm trying to avoid doing so. It was like wrestling with a series of inner uncontrollable forces...perhaps my own inner demons i.e. dark archetypes of consciousness or Jungian shadow figures, or an actual outside autonomous entity...the left side of my body was like one snake attacking the right side of my body at some points.....it lasted all day from morning to sundown. I saw two doctors WHILE in the hospital, one of which was the now notorious death grip guy and the other who was always decked out in colored sunglasses and velvet underground T-Shirts. They tried to give me a fourteen day hold after a nurse interviewed me while I was heavily sedated and decided I was "a danger to others." Of course, the doctors have all the power in these settings and I was back on my feet playing guitar and sax in a lounge in my hometown the evening of my release. I am not making this up.

Definitely a lot that typifies a manic episode (Gypsy you are spot on there) but I don't want to diminish the experience either by giving it a diagnostic definition. I agree that a focus on the more physical/ biological/behaviorist aspects would be most beneficial considering my own subjective biases.

Thank you, Mako, for your posts and for giving me a lot to investigate. I appreciate the time and effort.
 
 
illmatic
10:02 / 19.09.07
Could I ask you what you did exactly (What practice? How long for? etc) and what methodology/school of practice etc you were drawing on?

More in a sec...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:26 / 19.09.07
this is a discussion board and I'm glad we have shifted away from criticism of the poster into a more critical analysis of the topics I so sloppily spilled out initially

Was there content in this thread that has since been deleted? I ask because I don't see any "criticism of the poster" anywhere in this thread, just discussion and criticial analysis from Gypsy Lantern onwards. The critical analysis only starts to go once Mako turns up to do some uncritical enabling.
 
 
illmatic
10:31 / 19.09.07
I'm going to elaborate a bit on my posts above. I hope you don't mind me using your experinece as a jumping off point for my elaborations, Fett Mahler.

My approach to these kinds of practices and episodes is that are body is pretty marvelous and can, at times, throw all kinds of unusual experiences our way. These might be caused by stress, drugs or any other myriad factors, even something as simple as paying attention - in fact, I don't think that there's much point in differentiating between "extreme experience" and so called normality, to be honest.

A lot of the taoist and tantric texts seem to me to be talking in allegorical or symbolic language to point towards the experience of their authors. What I think the problem might be is that we often have no idea exactly what they meant - these texts originate in cultural matrixes very different to ours and vital bits of the jigsaw (oral instruction, shared understanding of symbolism etc) might be missing. We lack the maps. Sometimes with a bit of luck, a good teacher or persistence and open-mindness we might be approaching he same ballpark, but there isn't any way of knowing for sure.

Experience being plastic, it's easy to project a lot of esoteric backstory onto what happens to us. This may benefit us, but it also may actually cut us off from and separate us from what is happening. I'm reminded of a post of here a few years ago where someone was asking if his energy was going the right way as his perceptions weren't in accord with a subtle body map he'd turned up somewhere. (Happened to me also as well, first time I tried Taoist meditation - had an experience that freaked me out but it "wasn't in the book".)

This is why I think it's important to have a clear grasp on what is actually happening or has happened physically and tease this out and separate it from our esoteric maps. I think often when our experience is very intense, our minds can speed us as well - everything being part of the same system, all being one, and we can elaborate all sorts of complex fantasical architectures on the basis of simple bodily experience and process.

This is one of the meanings of Sun, Moon and Fire in Tantric symbolism. The Sun (heart and lungs) generates these experiences, and the Moon (Mind) reflects this light, but can lead us astray with it's fickle and changable lunar nature. You can experience this with simple pranayama. I think it's important to keep in mind when reading esoeric texts the words of somethign like the Bhavana Upanishad: Shri Guru is Shakti from Whom all the elements are created. Of this (Shakti) the body, with its nine orifices, is the form.

(In short: the body is guru.)
 
 
illmatic
11:09 / 19.09.07
(Mod change in for hyperlink to that text and alteration - misrembered)

I could have just said: These things are often simplier than we think.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:11 / 19.09.07
I'd hazard that Mako's contributions to this thread are more of what you positively don't need.

You still haven't really told us anything at all about what actually happened, what you were doing (beyond "breathwork", which could mean anything) and what exactly it did to create a situation where medical health professionals considered you to be a "danger to others".

So for Mako to extrapolate wildly from the minimal amount of information you have supplied, and then plant further totally mentalist suggestions in your head that you have somehow unintentionally created a "spirit embryo", and thus attracted the attention of a demonic entity when you moved out of your physical body into that "embryo" - based exclusively on a couple of very vague lines on a website he came across somewhere, and with no reasoning whatsoever supplied as to why these few random lines might conceivably apply to your experiences and situation - is both offensive and irresponsible.

You might not like what I'm saying to you here, and it might not gratify your ego as much as someone spouting yet more vague cosmic meanderings that appeal to your aesthetic sensibilities, and support your desire to interpret your difficult experiences through a magical lens, but presumably you have started this thread because you want help from other posters in coming to terms with what has happened. I am trying my level best to help you do that. I think you should start by slowing down a bit and telling us more about the specifics of what happened, with as little confusing magical terminology as possible. Then other contributors to this thread will perhaps be able to help you and give you some solid and useful advice on how you might best frame and contextualise what happened, safe-guard against it happening again, and resolve any problems related to this stuff that might still be current. Presumably that is why you started the thread.

What you have described is not normal or healthy stuff to emerge out of one's magical practice. It is not business-as-usual to find yourself hospitalised for six days because you didn't keep your tongue up against the roof of your mouth during a meditation, y'know. That is not good advice you are being given there. The dialogue taking place here between you and Mako is an example of the sort of sloppy thinking, wild leaps of unfounded speculation, unsubstantiated conclusion jumping and general mad occult bullshit that gets people dug deeper into a hole. I'm not going to sit here and let that go on unchecked without speaking up. Buying into more of this sort of vague cosmic gear is not going to do you any favours. More mad speculation about mystical astral stuff that may or may not be going on, is really not what you need if you want to get a solid handle on what might actually be happening.

I'm not saying this to be mean, to either of you, I'm just calling it how I see it. If I can do anything at all to help you out in this occult crisis you seem to have going on, then I will. That's one of the things that I consider this space to be for. I've had more than a few occult crises of one form or another myself, in my magical career, and what I benefited from most of all was straight talking, pragmatism and a bit of magical realism. Take it down to brass tacks. Strip away all of the misleading ideas and speculatory theories that you've constructed around the experience and just look at what actually happened, and what can practically be done about it.

I'm not "criticising the poster", I am criticising what I consider to be a very irresponsible dialogue taking place, and suggesting that - if you actually want any solid advice for getting this stuff under control - then you need to supply us with more information about what happened, clear of occult jargon and unhelpful mystification.

What did you do? How long were you doing it for? How did it make you feel? When did it get out of control? How was that experience qualitatively different from how it was at the start? What exactly happened in the run-up to being hospitalised? How have you felt since then? What else is going on in your magical practice? How long have you been practising? Have you been doing any magical work since your hospitalisation? How has that been going? What problems did this experience bring up for you exactly? You've mentioned lust a couple of times but haven't really gone into how this relates to what happened - are you prepared to talk more about this and what it means to you? If you listened to your gut instinct, what do you think the deeper root of the problem might be?

All of these questions and probably more need to be explored, if any one on here is going to be able to give you any sort of plausible and useful advice on this matter - and without getting into the situation at that sort of level - all your going to get is decidedly unhelpful, totally whack-job, cosmic bullshit about spirit embryos and demons. These things might have validity within their own contexts, for instance if you were working seriously with Goetia or the Taoist methods outlined on that website, but to casually pick up on these half-understood ideas and randomly append them to some one's mental/physical health issues, is not just bad magical practice, but bad news in general. I hope some of this is useful and I haven't put too many noses out of joint.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:47 / 19.09.07
Let's start with what you've already told us so far, and hope that you come along later and fill in some of the gaps:

I experienced my first kundalini awakening this last summer and it resulted in a nonstop chi explosion

As Olulabelle commented earlier, what makes you interpret what happened as a Kundalini awakening? Have you been practising a form of Kundalini yoga either by yourself or under a teacher or instructor? If so, how long for? Why did you take it up? What were you trying to get out of it? My grasp of Indian spiritual practices is a bit basic, but as I understand it, there is some degree of debate and controversy about the westernised understanding of "Kundalini" and how it may be rather skewed and reconstructed. I think there is a thread about it knocking around somewhere. You might want to hunt that out before you go too far down the road of accepting the western notion of Kundalini awakenings wholesale. There is a lot of academic research on Tantra and Indian religions which may shed a different light on your understanding of this terminology. I'm sure Roy Medallion and Trouser will be able to give you some clear pointers in exploring some of this stuff further.

If you *haven't* been practising a form of Kundalini yoga, it's even more problematised. I would be really careful about picking up on half-understood terms like that and appending them to experiences that may have arisen out of entirely different practices. Because you haven't told us what you were actually doing, it's difficult to guage one way or the other whether the Kundalini metaphor is a profitable lens through which to view this experience. "Kundalini awakening" is almost like the Eastern version of "I am an Ipsissimus, hear me roar", y'know. People dabble in a bit of magical gear and have some weird stuff happen to them, then their egos seize on terms like this that they've read in books, and it's a slippery slope to self-delusion from there on in. Big pitfall. Try not to go there.


suggested the idea that what I had experienced was actually demonic possession.

What did you tell him about your experience that made him come to that conclusion? Did he tell you anything else?

where do the lines blur between a successful tantric practice and an excessive focus on the sexual or physical (what might be called lustfulness, although your definition may vary...)

Again, this begs the question: what do you mean by a tantrik practice? It's another hugely misunderstood term for various aspects of Indian spiritual practice. What are you actually talking about? What have you been doing? Why have you been doing it? What are you trying to get out of it?

You seem to have a lot of issues here around "lust" and the physical, which rings a few alarm bells. What's that all about then? We are sexual, physical beings. This is not something "demonic" to be "overcome" or disassociated from, especially not if it is emerging out of a tantrik practice (assuming that your definition of tantra is anywhere near the same ballpark as my own understanding of it).

An important issue for me is the difference between thinking sexually and acting sexually upon those thoughts. What that boils down to is keeping the demon in check, whether it be an actual entity or just my own darker side rearing its ugly nature.

I'm not sure that this business with demons is necessarily helping you out here. What are you trying to "keep in check"? There seems to be some sexual material arising from your breathwork that makes you uncomfortable and which you are trying to come to terms with. I'd suggest that the focus of your work should be on a healthy integration of that material. Characterising it as "demonic" or your "dark side that you must keep in check", might not be the best way of doing that. You don't want to turn your life into a poor adaptation of Jekyll and Hyde. James Nesbitt. That guy from Peep Show. These are dark mysteries. Again, try not to go there if you can help it.

Cutting to the chase a bit: Are you getting laid? Is it possible that a period of uninvited celibacy is contributing to the emergence of these issues around lust? You should never underestimate the power of sex. It might be the case that a healthy sex life would make a lot of these problems disappear like phantoms of the past. Having a healthy sex life is an important part of being a healthy adult human being - and if this isn't being fulfilled, then that could well be the root source of a lot of this difficult material. What you see as "demons" are perhaps better perceived as under-nourished parts of yourself, turning maladaptively in upon themselves, and crying for attention. Like when your stomach hurts to get your attention if it hasn't been fed. Characterising your hunger pangs as "demons" to be opposed, is probably not the most productive attitude to the problem at hand.

If this is a fair assessment, then you might want to look at what you can do to remedy that problem. Doing some magical work to find a partner/s, revamping your appearance, and getting yourself out and about in as many social circles as possible might be a better act of magic than staying at home fretting about possession by Asmodeus or reading stuff about Taoist spirit embryos on the internet. Just saying.

Looking back on my experience, I'd say it was a combination of both possession and awakening...

Why do you describe it as a mix of possession and awakening? Did anything positive come out of the experience? What have you taken from it?

I found a text document I had created the evening before hospitalization that I really feel was Asmodeus speaking through me, and yet the entire experience as a whole has been overwhelmingly helpful to me as time has gone by.

Why would you say that? Have you been working with Asmodeus? What does Asmodeus mean to you? What specific qualities of the text document makes you attribute its authorship to a demon? Where are you going with that? Do you really want to buy into a belief system that frames your own sexuality - which you have the right to healthy expression of with consenting adults - as a "demon of lust". Seems more than a bit problematic to me, and if this material has emerged out of a sex-positive tantrik practice, then it seems like you're switching lanes to something else as soon as your tantrik work has started to stir things up. Generally, when we have problematic material emerge out of our magical practice, it is something that was there all along and the magical work has just made it rise to the surface so that we may best deal with it and integrate it. You might want to try and look at what is happening from that position, rather than feeding the problem by bringing medieval demons into the picture...


It was like wrestling with a series of inner uncontrollable forces...perhaps my own inner demons i.e. dark archetypes of consciousness or Jungian shadow figures, or an actual outside autonomous entity...the left side of my body was like one snake attacking the right side of my body at some points.....it lasted all day from morning to sundown.

I would strongly advise against attributing any literal validity to any of this visionary material. You might be better served by considering this stuff as a visionary externalisation of processes taking place within your body. That does not make it any less "magical". The body is a magical talisman. Mysterious things happen in the body. Obviously some pretty intense stuff has been stirred up as a result of your practice, but to decide, for instance, that one side of your body is literally possessed by a magic snake that is attacking the other side of your body, is not a particularly useful metaphor to live with. I'm not saying that's what you are doing, just cautioning against buying fully into literal explanations for mysterious physical/mental stuff that has arisen.

It can be very tempting - especially if you are relatively new to magic (first 3-5 years of practice) - to seize on any and all unusual experiences and use them to wrap yourself in a magical drama assembled from various eclectic and often half-understood sources. People often do this when they are hungry for magic, yearning for something to happen, trying to prove to themselves that this stuff is real and there really is magic and mystery and magical mystery in the world. Calm down. Chill out. Turn a sceptical eye to all of your experiences - especially the ones that you are the most emotionally invested in - and try to avoid dressing your actual experiences in too much mystical speculation and astral fantasy. Always return to the basics of what you did, what happened and how it made you feel. If you keep up a solid, regular practice and allow it to grow and develop organically, you will begin to find your own magic, more magic than you know what to do with. What you are looking for will emerge naturally and organically out of your practice. There is no need to knock yourself out. Relax. Remain sane. Turn a critical eye to everything that happens, especially if you're not enjoying it, if its causing problems in other areas of your life or if its impairing your ability to function in the world.

Hope some of this is useful.
 
 
illmatic
13:12 / 19.09.07
Not to make light of your experience either but I just noticed this:

I saw two doctors WHILE in the hospital, one of which was the now notorious death grip guy and the other who was always decked out in colored sunglasses and velvet underground T-Shirts.

What kind of crazy hopsital was this?
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:29 / 19.09.07
So for Mako to extrapolate wildly from the minimal amount of information you have supplied...

Actually I was trying add to whether or not the Taoist conception of demons and possession was any different from the "western grimoire notion of demonic possession", not stating that FM had been practicing embroyonic breathing and screwed up; Kundalini rising and embryonic breathing are two very different things.

For 6 days?

Also, I was referring to the kundalini awakening experience, and not the resulting nonstop chi explosion and six day recovery period.

I had been practicing my uijayi breath a lot, which as I was taught places the tongue at the roof of the mouth, but my understanding and experience found this to be an inhibitory practice more than anything.

Only if you're not use to it, however once this has been overcome the benefits include relaxation of the jaw and tongue, which improves blood flow to the brain - in QiGong it's done to enable qi to flow properly, and is rather important when dealing with large uprisings of qi such as you experienced.

You might want to do some research on this - the basic rules of QiGong and speech therapy are good places to start. If you feel like buying something, buy Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master by Glenn Morris as it has about three chapters which deal with the subject, and at least one example of where the author recounts how he messed himself up in similar fashion to yourself.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
13:52 / 19.09.07
Some ofGlenn Morris' thoughts on Kundalini can be found here, though it seems like he's trying to sell a quick way to Kundalini course, which is something that makes me skeptical.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:09 / 19.09.07
Is Glen Morris actually a reputable source on Kundalini? What does Kundalini have to do with Japanese ninjitsu? Is Glen Morris actually a reputable source on ninjitsu for that matter? I read "Pathnotes..." years ago, and whilst it was a fun read, it seemed a bit like a collection of westernised new age practices strung together under the thin veneer of being Ninjitsu. I am very, very sceptical of all of the material in that book. I am very, very sceptical of the western understanding of Kundalini.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:18 / 19.09.07
Isn't there a lot of debate over whether the discipline of "kundalini yoga" itself, as taught and practised in the west, has any precedent whatsoever in actual Indian yogic practice? Isn't there a current academic argument that the western understanding of this material has its roots in theosophy and orientalism, by way of the new age, and this idea of raising the kundalini - as touted in books like the Glen Morris one, and taught in yoga classes in the west - is actually an invention of the West, rather than something clearly rooted in Indian spiritual practices? Can we please try to keep stuff like this in mind, whilst we are having this conversation, as I think its important we examine the source of some of our ideas rather than just accepting and parroting received knowledge from dubious sources. "Cos Glenn Morris, one of the few gen-u-ine American Ninjas, says so" is not good enough for me, I'm afraid.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
15:22 / 19.09.07
"Cos Glenn Morris, one of the few gen-u-ine American Ninjas, says so" is not good enough for me, I'm afraid.

Well Dr Morris has been inducted into the martial arts hall of fame - he studied under Masaaki Hatsumi, Soke (grandmaster/head of family) of Bujinkan Taijutsu which is one of the three recognized ninjutsu organizations. He created his own school of Hoshin Roshi Ryu, which is dedicated to both the combat arts Bujinkan Taijutsu and Jujutsu, as well as Kundalini through internal meditation and energy focus.

What would you define as a reputable source on Kundalini or Ninjitsu?
 
 
EvskiG
15:34 / 19.09.07
Not much to add to GL's truly excellent advice.

But what's normally called Kundalini Yoga actually was brought to the U.S. in 1968 by a former customs inspector, Harbhajan Singh Khalsa Yogiji, better known as Yogi Bhajan. To put it mildly, his credentials -- and teachings -- are incredibly suspect.

As for your practice of "uijayi breath," as I've said before (and know through personal experience), pranayama can fuck you up if you don't know what you're doing.

If you really want to do Ujjayi pranayama, do it under the supervision of a really good and experienced teacher, preferably after years of practice of the asanas, as Patanjali recommended. And, for God's sake, at a minimum buy B.K.S. Iyengar's Light on Pranayama and follow the instructions VERY carefully.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
16:00 / 19.09.07
"Well Dr Morris has been inducted into the..."

... ninja hall of fame?

To clarify my previous post: I'm not doubting Glenn Morris's credentials as a martial artist. But I am a bit suspicious of his writings on areas such as Kundalini, and the extent to which this material has anything whatsoever to do with the Japanese discipline of Ninjitsu. I'm sure Dr Morris was a great martial artist. That doesn't necessarily also make him an expert on a totally different discipline from another continent. It also always sets my alarm bells ringing when writers on occult and new age subjects make conspicuous use of their academic titles, in the manner of "Dr Glenn Morris Phd, author of Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master". Are you a Doctor of Ninjitsu? If not, then why are you writing under your professional title?
 
 
grant
17:07 / 19.09.07
Not that it matters too much at this point, but I've just heard from someone who'd know (not my sister) that although there's no room for demonic possession in TCM, there is something much like that in older Chinese healing modalities. News to me.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
17:22 / 19.09.07
I was going to wait for the edit request to go through, but my original post was meant to say: -

Well Dr Morris has been inducted into the martial arts hall of fame - he studied under Masaaki Hatsumi, Soke (grandmaster/head of family) of Bujinkan Taijutsu which is one of the three recognized ninjutsu organizations. He created his own school of Hoshin Roshi Ryu, which is dedicated to both the combat arts Bujinkan Taijutsu and Jujutsu, as well as Kundalini through internal meditation and energy focus.

What would you define as a reputable source on Kundalini or Ninjitsu?

To follow up on that, there aren't too many reputable Kundalini lineages that I'm aware of, however I haven't encountered much criticism of GM's work on the subject. It's certainly not a carbon copy of Upanishad thought or Hindu yogic practices, and is derived more from Toaist practices than anything; as such it's better described as the the greater kan and li of nei shen gung fu, which basically translates to Taoist fire/water breath work and meditation of internal spiritual martial arts, however Kundalini seems to be a more recognisable term - given that they seem to be the same thing, perhaps he can be forgiven for using it in order to communicate to a wider audience. His work seems to be more from the experience and practices of both himself and his students, that from an academic standpoint, which is rather important when dealing with such things.

It also always sets my alarm bells ringing when writers on occult and new age subjects make conspicuous use of their academic titles, in the manner of "Dr Glenn Morris Phd, author of Pathnotes of an American Ninja Master".

He wrote them under the title of Glenn Morris or Glenn J Morris, though given he had* a philosophy and a science doctorate, where the Sc.D was for "Statistical study on transpersonal and biological aspects of leadership based on godai [Chinese five element theory] and TCM [Traditional Chinese Medicine]" and the Ph.D was for "Communication Rhetoric and Public Address, emphasis on organizational communication, industrial psychology and psychotherapy". He could have included these titles and there wouldn't have been a problem as far as their relation to his work went, just as he included his title of master in regards to Ninjitsu, however perhaps he too shared your views on doing so. I'd rather read the work of someone who has proven their ability to dedicate themselves to a decade or so of study than someone who hasn't, especially if they can back it up with experience, as this is a yard stick of their personality and (hopefully) the sort of effort they've put into their work.

*he's dead now, though I've had conversations with a student of his who claims that Mr Morris is alive and kickin in the spirit realms, and still open to teaching.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
06:03 / 20.09.07
Truly excellent advice indeed. Gypsy, I just sent you a thank you note.

It was more "Hotel California" than a hospital as I experienced it...flipping between heaven hell and purgatory...I don't know...its just me mystifying it of course but my doctor was either a rockstar or a ninja, I saw the splitting image of Kanye West, X-Zibit, and Eazy-E and I met some cool people. Then again.....I wasn't complaining when they let me out after six days, either.

On a more serious note...I appreciate the time you all have spent addressing this.

-FM
 
 
Quantum
07:41 / 20.09.07
Mr Morris is alive and kickin in the spirit realms, and still open to teaching.

Where do I sign up to get a ghost ninja master buddy?
 
 
Papess
00:01 / 21.09.07
Fett, sweetie, with all the lovely advice that is some have given here, I can hardly add anything. I would like to pass along some advice that was given by a very wise man that I know. I will try and paraphrase as best I can:

If you know that the noise the mind creates is constantly arising, and you know this to be illusory, then why do you take some noises so seriously?

I hope it is not insulting you Fett, and that I have at least paraphrased this wise person's words in an intelligent manner. Just hearing it made so much sense for me. Maybe it can make sense for you too.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:49 / 30.09.07
I've been thinking about this and I have come to the conclusion that quite often in the Temple the kind of critical thinking that, in this thread, people like GL and Roy are advocating appears to some people to be personal criticism but in actual fact it isn't. We're all asking these questions because actually we're really interested in the experiences and because we're fascinated by the whole subject in general. So if someone says, Oh I had this 6 hour long Kundalini explosion' and everyone replies as they have, asking what really happened and why, it's because they're trying by a process of elimination to figure out what really happened, because once you have ruled out everything else what you are left with is a truly magical experience and if that's what happened, well that's a wonderful thing indeed and we all want to know more about it.

So it's only critical in so far as it's a search for the beauty and the mystery of true magic and I wish more people could see that. I wish everyone would stop feeling so attacked and instead see that rigorous analysis is actually support.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:02 / 30.09.07
I think the critical analysis comes across and is a great thing when it boils experience down into its raw experience, but sometimes it sort of seems like some side swipping is going on as well, and then people focus on the emotional kicks and punches rather that the process of understanding and comprehending the experience in a critical way.

You would have to be a saint to keep it up continually so this isnt criticism, just looking at the dynamics of the thread.

I will relate some of my own experience, i had a near death experience that involved a serpent uncoiling from within me, leaveing my body and giving me a choice between life and death. Now at the time i was a drug user and an alcoholic. So the above experience is how it appeared to me at my current time. Thou the experience went on to change my life dramatically and is still in some sense doing so after 7 years i no longer view it in the same way as i did.

I should also add that i was under the illusion earlier that week that the pavement had been talking to me telepathically, that demons created pizzas out of the back of takeaway shops puking there stomach contents onto bread.
( later i was convinced that prozac was congealed demon semen being used to convert the population to demonic ways), aside from the time spent staring at black glassed windows looking for the people who didnt have reflections, the real vampires.

Anyway (far too many drugs and the slow removal of myself from distraction later) I was diagnosed with schizophrenia, now i can see that that was drug induced schizophrenia with reflection. I never really took spirituality seriously until about maybe 7-5 years ago when i used to practice, and i realized at that point that spirituality was a relationship to what was real.

That had evaded me before, it was part of my great escape, my journey into not facing myself ever in any way. Real spirituality in my experience is the opposite it pushes you head first into reality it grounds you and opens you up to what you really are all at once, there is no escaping into an experience but only being in the experience as you are whom you are, warts an all.

The systems in a sense become superfluous to the experience, wether you label it kundalini, divine fire etc etc, its so easy to become embroilled by those systems and labels without actually addressing the experience and any real ways its effecting you. (i was side tracked by mythologising the experience for years, it taught me loads of useful cultural stuff dont get me wrong, but it wasnt the experience.)

Looking at the actual experience i would examine how it has effected your behaviour, your sense of self identity, what it tells you about you, try not to contextualise it into anybodys system, just know yourself through it.

Other peoples big symbols may be useful pointers but they are not you, they are not what you are and how you experience. Its easy to build a huge wall of symbolism around yourself so you do not actually have to engage with whom you are and how things effect and relate to you and then with some courage feel all of it maybe in small doses to begin with and larger as you become more ready to experience yourself.

Just as an aside, i no longer identify as a schizophrenic, i do not need medication, once the drugs were out of my system and i had taken up a variety of forms of exercise that concentrated me into me i recovered from my own personal great escape quite quickly, once i was willing to actually face why i was doing all of it in the first place.

I still suffer from bouts of depression but they become fewer and fewer as i understand who i actually am rather than the fantasy selves i had projected for so long. I still project those selves when i need them to be useful but they are more self parody these days.

As for the outside and inside being plugged and activated, are they nessecarily mutually exclusive or is it perhaps the relationship between them that defines them, to have the self boundary violated is not nessecarily a pleasent experience especially if this is a forceful one but neither is becoming aware of parts of the self that perhaps we may not want to face.

Now since we can experience and generally do an inner awareness and outer awareness at the same time, you can stop now and percieve this if you want you will feel your external sensory experiences and your internal awareness of your conscious perception.

When we have an experience of any magnitude it registers as coming from outside and inside at the sametime, because the experience is of such a magnitude it consumes both sets of awareness similtaneously, then when the rational mind returns it is left to discern wether it was an inner or outer occurence because it likes to catagorise or at least has been socially conditioned too.

You are always discerning an inner and outer, even when dreaming there is the dream representations and the consciousness that fills them.

Its this basic duality in perception that creates a notion of seperation which is why it became for me at least from my own experiences important to focus on the relationships between things rather than the things themselves, focusing on the relationships allowed me to see how my conscious phenomena were not seperate from my physicality.

This does not mean that my assumptions about what those phenomena mean are correct or true, just that they are defined by a relationship that views through the lense of a divided awareness.

Its the recognition of the confusion and discord that that divided awareness can cause that had me running around for quite a few years after imaginary demons and the devil in me. Its a lie perpetuated by the notion that only one form of awareness is dominant when they are both mutually dependent upon each other. One and the same.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:52 / 01.10.07
Right, so the history of Kundalini in the Western world is not such a long one apparently. Harbhajan Singh Yogi arrives from India in the sixties and starts teaching it. "I didn't come to find students but to make teachers" and all that jazz.

Normally, when I hear something like dude arrives from India claiming that they spent many long, hard years climbing all over the Himalayan mountains seeking out reclusive sadhus and yogis, learning from them a form of yoga that was feared by the ruling class way back when (because it was not just a form of yoga but the most powerful form of yoga, natch) and therefore practiced in secret for hundreds of years, my alarm bell starts ringing too.

But before I wrote it off as bullshit, I looked into Harbhajan Singh Yogi a little bit. Dude starts 3HO in 1969 (Healthy, Happy, Holy Organization) which is currently a non-profit UN alligned NGO that (according to wikipedia, anyway) works on "women's issues, promoting human rights and providing education in alternative systems of medicine". Seems harmless enough. I mean, I know very little of Sikhism other than that they are fairly egalitarian.

Anyway, when I ask myself "what are the odds that dude really did find a great form of yoga way the hell up in the Himalayas", I find that it's not such a stretch of the imagination. I also have little trouble believing that it may have much in common with the Taoist stuff I've been reading about in The Secret of the Golden Flower, (which sounds a lot like what the American Ninja Master was talking about).

Which is to say, nothing in this thread has convinced me that there is any reason to dispute this idea outright, despite the awkward presentation of it. I personally plan to investigate this further before writing it off.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:53 / 01.10.07
Just posted to add that I really feel weird saying, or even typing, the words "American Ninja Master". I'm not entirely sure why.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
05:19 / 01.10.07
Sorry for the triple post--could someone, someone who knows and has had experience with kundalini yoga and/or traditional Taoist breathing/energy work, start a thread comparing the two? I would love to see how they relate and would start the thread myself except I know pretty much jack shit about both.
 
  

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