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Literature and Sexism, and me.

 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:14 / 14.09.07
Okay, I'm on a module at University about the 20th century novel. It should be good. My problem is, there's no D.H. Lawrence or James Joyce on the course, who are very important. There are however minor novels by Spark and Greene.

Can anyone think of any reason why anyone studying the 20th Century novel should not be talked to about James Joyce and D.H. Lawrence?

Because right now, looking at the list, all I can think of is that those two important novellists have been shooed off because of their sexual politics (or the sexual politics which appear in the novels) in favour of the Spark novel and several others which are of social/gender importance (i.e. because one can say clever things about them challenging gender norms). Which I think is a bit bad.

Is this a massive assumption? Am I wrong? I'm aware that it might be, and I don't like the way that what I'm saying smells. Your thoughts?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
09:27 / 14.09.07
Can we have a gander at the entire list?

Also; I noticed that the reading lists produced at my Uni were very subjective, and tended towards books that the tutor deemed "worthy" of our attention. Could this be a case of that?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:33 / 14.09.07
It might well be that this is just a case of a subjective choice by a tutor, and I'd like it to be, because otherwise I'll have to argue that formal and thematic changes in works of art are just as important as any social meaning/"representation"/tackling of issues which, based on how other people fared who raised the same point, will make me very unpopular. That response on the part of the tutor is of course understandable.

I'd really like to show you the whole list, and I realize that probably needs to happen for anyone to make a decision about what I've asked, but I worry that I might be traced (not by anyone in particular) if I put up the whole list (as someone could find out what course it was and where).
 
 
Ex
09:39 / 14.09.07
Can anyone think of any reason why anyone studying the 20th Century novel should not be talked to about James Joyce and D.H. Lawrence?

Interesting question. For starters, there are an awful lot of highly significant authors in the 20th century, most of whom won't fit on a syllabus. There are always too many to include. You may think of some as essential, but I wouldn't say Joyce, or Lawrence particularly, are as striking an absence as Shakespeare would be from a module on Rennaissance drama. And it changes all the time - new names slowly roll in and others get shunted out.

More specifically, composing a reading list, in my experience, is always an enormous compromise - you want texts which are representative and ones which are unusual, some Big Names without which the course would be flawed but also some less well-known things which may have been unfairly neglected, and often some things which indicate cultural shifts as well as having a purely formal or 'literary' merit. And there are practcial considerations - how much have I given students to read, in what genres - Ulysses, for example, is a whacking great commitment. Sometimes there is, at least in my experience, some haggling about repesentation of women writers, queer writers, and writers of colour on the programme - but if you're not addressing those things in a course on 20th century Lit, then I'd say your understanding will be more flawed or lacking than if you're ticking off all the Big Names. There's a lot of feeling that tutors create the canon of texts as we set it, so teaching the same thing the whole time cements certain Big names and makes the chances of other writers being studied ever slimmer - I think that's problematic not only on 'non-literary' political grounds (considerations of sex, race, class, etc) but in literary terms. Many of those writers are good, and they're good in different ways which won't get investigated or acknowledged if the same few people are studied, and eventually become used as exemplars by which other authors are judged.

So I think the idea that Joyce and Lawrence were a shoo-in but have been bumped for spurious gender-related reasons is not the only explanation. It may be an element, but a more complex one than phrasing it that way suggests.

And from the other angle - personally, I would probable only teach Lawrence (if given the choice) for what he says about sex and gender. I don't find him interesting on many other fronts, but I've included stuff by him on programmes specifically about gender and writing because he's so influential and interesting.

And again, personally, I have received complaints every year about the number of women on my reading lists (never, in courses not specifically about women's writing, more than half the authors). Students believe I must be doing something a bit dodgy - a bit non-literary, motivated by some external subjective concern - if the number of women tips over about a quarter. No matter how I explain the rationale behind the list, I suspect my capacity to teach is then in doubt for them, for the whole term.
I've never been convinced that these students then complain about the number of male authors (and white authors) on the other courses - they just accept that those chaps are the writers they need to study to know literature, and anything else is a fudge. So excuse me if I'm prickly on the topic -it's an evolving subject for me, but never a neutral one, because I have to defend ot just my text selection, but my right to teach, fairly regularly.

Hope that helps - it's obviously only my experience, no idea what your tutors are up to.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:40 / 14.09.07
Can anyone think of any reason why anyone studying the 20th Century novel should not be talked to about James Joyce and D.H. Lawrence?

Time restrictions, for one. The selection of texts for a module can never hope to be exhaustive. Decisions will have been made on the basis of subjective judgments that are up for debate, but then so are the ideas you've presented as objective in your first post, i.e. Joyce and Lawrence being "important" and certain novels by Spark and Greene being "minor".

Personally I think it's a desirable thing for different courses to offer different modules that do not all cling to one obvious agreed canon. By all means you should feel free to discuss the choice of texts with tutors/lecturers, but I wouldn't rush to make assumptions as to what the reasons were for the choices that have been made, and I certainly wouldn't start assuming that you know best in terms of who or what should be studied instead.

If you want to read Joyce or Lawrence in your own time, nobody's stopping you, although Christ knows why you'd want to do the latter.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:47 / 14.09.07
Ah, Ex said it much better than I could hope to.

For what it's worth, I did a module on early 20th century literature/Modernism that didn't cover any set Joyce texts, although Ulysses was very much the elephant in the room. If I remember rightly - and my memory is shit - the core authors were Eliot, Woolf, Conrad, Auden, and, er, I think that was it. Anyway, the point is, this was not a course selected or taught by people who thought Joyce was unimportant or politically inappropriate of whatever. The length of Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake was probably the primary reason they were not set texts.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
09:47 / 14.09.07
I don't know many Lit' professors who wouldn't consider Joyce worthy of attention, and many who would consider Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake as the finest book of the 20th century. In Joyce's case could it be that the tutor feels that the relative complexity of Joyce's work (even Dubliners and Portrait') compared to say Brighton Rock or The Third Man could be off-putting. Having sat through a class on The Crying of Lot 49 where the chief criticism was that it 'had nothing to say' (meaning 'it didn't make us, educated white middle class types, feel like we scored some points for having read it like Corregidora did last week') I know how hard it is for students to accept literature that falls outside of the 'making us all better people' thing.

Incidentally, having experienced lit' courses on both sides of the Atlantic I'd be interested in knowing whether this is a British or American institution. Or Canadian I guess.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:52 / 14.09.07
Thanks Ex, you've given me food for thought.

If you want to read Joyce or Lawrence in your own time, nobody's stopping you

Which is a fair point, Fly, but then I can't take part in a seminar on those two, and I can't write essays and exam questions on them.

Phex, this is in Britain.

Having pushed my thoughts through some evolutions, my major problem isn't that we seem to be reading a module almost devoted to gender issues, it's that the quality of the Spark and Greene novels we're set make them really, really minor. They're not terrible novels, but they're also not very important (compared to others by the same authors, like the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie or Brighton Rock).
 
 
Ex
09:55 / 14.09.07
Also, have you got any chance to study Joyce or Lawrence and get credit for it (essays, comparison point for one of the existing texts)? Not ideal, obviously, if you want some sustained discussion on them. I imagine your tutor might generate you a bibliography, though.
 
 
Ex
09:57 / 14.09.07
Sorry, you answered my question.

I have sympathy with you on bad Spark.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:04 / 14.09.07
It might be a good idea to stop thinking that the quality of something can make it "important" or "minor".
 
 
Ex
10:09 / 14.09.07
Re: the less-good Spark and Green, I think sometimes a text can be picked in part for its usefulness - for example, Beloved gets taught endlessly, while other works which are equally good by Morrison, and other writers (including other black women writers), are overlooked, because Beloved allows tutors to address gender, race, nationhood and the influence of history in one easy instalment. In the worst cases, tutors then go back to ignoring all that for the rest of the programme.

A bad example, because I think Beloved is a cracking book and every time I teach it something new comes up. But I'm having some doubts about I Married a Communist on one of my modules this year - I like it very much but I think it's there to inform the students about cultural and historical background. That may be a bit harsh. But I'd rather they learned about the background stuff elsewhere, and then we could look at some fiction which plays on it and extends it (which, to be fair, we do in a couple of the other texts - one of them's Pynchon, I hope they like it...).
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:42 / 14.09.07
Good luck with that if they're British students. Which Pynchon is it, out of interest?
 
 
Ex
11:47 / 14.09.07
It's The Crying of Lot 49, as with yours - I liked it, I hope I can infect them with my liking.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:34 / 14.09.07
It might be a good idea to stop thinking that the quality of something can make it "important" or "minor".

Fly, the "quality" of the thing (obviously a subjective value) isn't my only concern here, and nor should it ever be; I think the social importance/meaning(s) of literature is just as important a point as the quality of the writing. That said, quality is also important.

Are you saying that even though (say) Lawrence wrote in an entirely new style/changed the leaning of the novel from Henry James conversational to epic/disregarded hundreds of Victorian moral platitudes, because the novel's "opinions" on men and women and who they are are often determinist and violent, he ought not to be considered important? Because we aren't talking about a philosophical treaty, or a scientific theory, or a set of religious maxims, which texts are only important until disproved (i.e. logos); we're talking about a work of art, which is much more ambiguous (i.e. mythos). I don't see why novels ought always to be treated as political manifestoes.

For the record, the way this course has worked over the past year has seen a lot of students complain about the dry, ideological-theoretical reading of the texts; we haven't been looking at construction, structure, language in any detail, we've been looking at "what this book says about women/other races" pretty much to the exclusion of all else, and in sometimes a very slap-dash, obvious, even sub-Barbelith, way; it's felt more like a basic social history course based on fictional sources, and aimed at extreme reactionaries who need re-educating, than a literature course; crucially it's at times seemed to be a competition to see who could most radically discredit European literature. For example, Othello should be looked at as an example of the construction of a racial "other"; but it should also be considered as a rare, progressive example of the sixteenth century stage producing a (relatively) human, three-dimensional black character, and the latter hasn't been happening, nor have we looked at "neutral" formal ideas like the meter or verse form Shakespeare uses or how the plot unfolds, or which classical sources Shakespeare draws from; this history of legitimate priorities excluding points of equal importance (which might well be no-one's fault, to be sure) is why I'm bothered about this particular reading list. I should have explained this at the start of the thread.

I'm in no way trying to pull a "OMG PC brigade are attacking Allecto, a great suffering intellectual" sort of stunt. If anything it's more that the gender/race discussion aren't very good ones that's the problem, rather than that they're happening at all. The very dry, humourless, "attack dog" style - which precludes "enjoyment" of the text as Bourgeois - has sent several kids I know against the whole idea of thinking about how, say, Heart of Darkness is only a European's subjective view and not the whole objective truth, because they associate this kind of thing with being, well, lectured. For the ones who've been lucky enough to have a grounding in anti-racism and feminism, it's often felt like preaching to the converted. You might say that that's just their problem, but it still looks like a problem none the less.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:08 / 14.09.07
Allmacto, my point was that you need to stop confusing quality and "social importance/meaning", as you do here:

the quality of the Spark and Greene novels we're set make them really, really minor. They're not terrible novels, but they're also not very important

It might also be good to think about whether "importance" is that much less ambiguous than "quality".

I have no idea where you got the idea that I thought novels should be treated as political tracts or that Lawrence in particular should be eschewed because of the politics of his work. I just don't like this books.

Tell me a little more about the structure of the course: do you have lectures that you can attend given by a range of people in addition to a single tutor in the subject? It is of course difficult if a tutor has one approach to the study of English literature which they pursue to the detriment of all else, especially if that includes discouraging students who are skilled and insightful but take a different route.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:53 / 14.09.07
Sorry for the misunderstanding, Fly.

What you've described is how it works at its worst. The better tutors, which is most of them, have their opinion which they suggest, but then ask what people think of it. The problem is getting stuck with who we'll call Tutor X who isn't up for that kind of input, because the groups stay the same all through the unit.
 
 
The Falcon
14:14 / 14.09.07
I've moved to put this in the lit forum; don't really understand why it wasn't put there originally?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:15 / 14.09.07
Fair enough - I think it may have been one of those slightly sneaky but entirely understandable attempts to "hook" contributors to a thread by putting it in the Conversation. Hopefully that's now been done.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
16:49 / 14.09.07
EX: It's The Crying of Lot 49, as with yours - I liked it, I hope I can infect them with my liking.

Great- incidentally, I've got this lovely bridge I can sell you...

I'd be interested in knowing (in this thread or by PM if you'd prefer) how this goes with a few salient details (US or UK, demographics of the class, where they are in their education, whether the course is optional or chosen etc.) so I can compare it to my own dispiriting experience of reading Pynchon alongside students whose idea of great literature is Morgan Freeman's final monologue from 'The Shawshank Redemption' stamping on a human face forever.
 
  
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