BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


AGW or just GW: Does it matter if humans are or aren't to blame for gobal warming?

 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:43 / 06.09.07
Right. Global warming: man-made or not? The debate has raged since the mid-80s at least, and the scientific consensus now seems to be that humanity is significantly culpable. What I'd like to hear from you on is this: Does it really matter if we're guilty or not? Whether we believe the scientific consensus that GW is man-made or not, shouldn't we worry more about how we can best adapt to new climate patterns, higher sea-levels and the host of other threats that we are told will emanate from the Hot New World than who's to blame and how should they/we pay? Is the blame-game and eco-ethical oneupmanship getting in the way of unbiased scientific enquiry, pragmatic policy and informed and open public debate? Or am I in fact a rectal ventriloquist?

Oh, almost forgot. If anyone do not, repeat, DO NOT, believe that Earth is warming up, they really should start another thread on that.
 
 
grant
13:51 / 06.09.07
It doesn't matter if humans are entirely to blame as long as our actions now can ameliorate the problem.

I think the whole problem on a social/political/Switchboard level is that those actions are pretty large, expensive and without immediate, tangible results.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:56 / 06.09.07
Whether we believe the scientific consensus that GW is man-made or not, shouldn't we worry more about how we can best adapt to new climate patterns, higher sea-levels and the host of other threats that we are told will emanate from the Hot New World than who's to blame and how should they/we pay?

As far as I'm aware, the fact that global warming is caused by human activity - and really, this is not just the majority scientific opinion but supported by overwhelming evidence and blindingly obvious unless you're a scientist whose pockets are being stuffed by Exxon-Mobil to claim otherwise - is relevant mostly because the above is *not* what most of the arguments concerning global warming are about. Rather, they're about just for God's sake stopping it - in which case, the fact of human cupability is central: if it can be denied that human activity is causing global warming, then it can be denied that curbing certain human activity is necessary.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:25 / 06.09.07
Grant: Ok, but that's quite the idealistic situation. If it turns out that we are facing GW and not AGW, will that not have an enormous impact on the debate on what do we do, if anything? There's a helluva lot of people out there who are motivated and educated by their emotions more than cold hard facts; if they're told by media and agenda-setters that we're not to blame for this, why should they accept possibly quite harsh measures to ameliorate something they're not to blame for? The common good? I don't believe people are that nice or that foresighted to be perfectly frank. Not for nothing the phrase "tragedy of the commons".

You! Me ! Pingling!: I don't want to get into a debate about the scientific merits of "AGW or just GW". I am not a natural scientist, so in effect I am reduced to choosing which experts to believe. Having said that, I honestly think that one can be a little less convinced of the merits of AGW (as presently formulated by the IPCC and environmental groups like Greenpeace) than you seem to be without being a liar, ignorant or in the pay of Big Oil etc. People like Roger Pielke and Hendrik Tennekes show that the science has some way to go before it's on par with say quantum mechanics.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:33 / 06.09.07
Disclosure: The link to Tennekes article above takes you to a website which seems to feature many articles from rather well-known climate skeptics/deniers or what have you such as S. Fred Singer and Richard Lindzen of MIT. Just so you know that I know.
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
14:35 / 06.09.07
Well yes it definitely matters cause if we are the cause and we keep behaving as we have currently been behaving, the situation will only get worse. You could choose adaptation as your method of dealing with the situation, but if you are the cause of the problem surely part of any adaptation will be dealing with it by changing your behaviour.

Where if it was clearly only a natural phenomonom the best action would be to try and help everyone's ability to adapt themselves. As it stands we are going to end up somewhere in the middle hopefully (!) we will succeed in reducing emissions but probably not anytime soon.

Also it's one things for humans with the benefit of technology to adapt to a new climate, but what about the adaptation of ecosystems?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
14:49 / 06.09.07
Well yes it definitely matters cause if we are the cause and we keep behaving as we have currently been behaving, the situation will only get worse.
That's an assumption that is reasonable to make based on the current consensus indeed. But that doesn't make it right - it is after all an induction and it could very well be wrong.

You could choose adaptation as your method of dealing with the situation, but if you are the cause of the problem surely part of any adaptation will be dealing with it by changing your behaviour.
Changing behaviour is, I believe, one definition of adaptation. So in one sense all behavioural change will also be adaptations. My bad for introducing that term into the conversation in the first place, since it clearly isn't precise enough.

How about I rephrase the central question and ask instead: Should we reform or revolutionise? And how does the framing of GW as a morality tale, turning GW into AGW, affect the public discourses, the granting of scientific funding and the world economy in general?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:13 / 06.09.07
Also, quite a few points I'm trying to make are made by this dude in Newsweek. I'll quote the entire piece:

We in the news business often enlist in moral crusades. Global warming is among the latest. Unfortunately, self-righteous indignation can undermine good journalism. Last week's NEWSWEEK cover story on global warming is a sobering reminder. It's an object lesson of how viewing the world as "good guys vs. bad guys" can lead to a vast oversimplification of a messy story. Global warming has clearly occurred; the hard question is what to do about it.

The global-warming debate's great un-mentionable is this: we lack the technology to get from here to there. Just because Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to cut emissions 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050 doesn't mean it can happen. At best, we might curb emissions growth.

Consider a 2006 study from the International Energy Agency. With present policies, it projected that carbon-dioxide emissions (a main greenhouse gas) would more than double by 2050; developing countries would account for almost 70 percent of the increase. The IEA then simulated an aggressive, global program to cut emissions based on the best available technologies: more solar, wind and biomass; more-efficient cars, appliances and buildings; more nuclear. Under this admitted fantasy, global emissions in 2050 would still slightly exceed 2003 levels.

Even the fantasy would be a stretch. In the United States, it would take massive regulations, higher energy taxes or both. Democracies don't easily adopt painful measures in the present to avert possible future problems. Examples abound. Since the 1973 Arab oil embargo, we've been on notice to limit dependence on insecure foreign oil. We've done little. In 1973, imports were 35 percent of U.S. oil use; in 2006, they were 60 percent. For decades we've known of the huge retirement costs of baby boomers. Little has been done.

One way or another, our assaults against global warming are likely to be symbolic, ineffective or both. But if we succeed in cutting emissions substantially, savings would probably be offset by gains in China and elsewhere. The McKinsey Global Institute projects that from 2003 to 2020, the number of China's vehicles will rise from 26 million to 120 million, average residential floor space will increase 50 percent and energy demand will grow 4.4 percent annually. Even with "best practices" energy efficiency, demand would still grow 2.8 percent a year, McKinsey estimates.

Against these real-world pressures, NEWSWEEK's "denial machine" is a peripheral and highly contrived story. NEWSWEEK implied, for example, that ExxonMobil used a think tank to pay academics to criticize global-warming science. Actually, this accusation was long ago discredited, and NEWSWEEK shouldn't have lent it respectability. (The company says it knew nothing of the global-warming grant, which involved issues of climate modeling. And its 2006 contribution to the think tank, the American Enterprise Institute, was small: $240,000 out of a $28 million budget.)

The alleged cabal's influence does not seem impressive. The mainstream media have generally been unsympathetic; they've treated global warming ominously. The first NEWSWEEK cover story in 1988 warned THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT. DANGER: MORE HOT SUMMERS AHEAD. A Time cover in 2006 was more alarmist: BE WORRIED, BE VERY WORRIED. Nor does public opinion seem much swayed. Although polls can be found to illustrate almost anything, the longest-running survey questions show a remarkable consistency. In 1989, Gallup found 63 percent of Americans worried "a great deal" or a "fair amount" about global warming; in 2007, 65 percent did.

What to do about global warming is a quandary. Certainly, more research and development. Advances in underground storage of carbon dioxide, battery technology (for plug-in hybrid cars), biomass or nuclear power could alter energy economics. To cut oil imports, I support a higher gasoline tax—$1 to $2 a gallon, introduced gradually—and higher fuel-economy standards for vehicles. These steps would also temper greenhouse-gas emissions. Drilling for more domestic natural gas (a low-emission fuel) would make sense. One test of greenhouse proposals: are they worth doing on other grounds?

But the overriding reality seems almost un-American: we simply don't have a solution for this problem. As we debate it, journalists should resist the temptation to portray global warming as a morality tale—as NEWSWEEK did—in which anyone who questions its gravity or proposed solutions may be ridiculed as a fool, a crank or an industry stooge. Dissent is, or should be, the lifeblood of a free society.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:40 / 06.09.07
Delighted to see both the impact of human action on global warming and the theory of evolution distrusted in one day on Barbelith. Rolling back the lies! Woo!

The Newsweek article cited above seems to have absolutely no bearing on the question raised in this thread, which is "Does it matter if humans are or aren't to blame for gobal warming?". For reference, the answer is yes, it does. If global warming has nothing to do with human agency, it does indeed make sense not to try to curb activities identified as contributing to global warming. If it has something to do with etc, it makes sense to try to curb acitvities etc. In either case, it is also important to adopt new strategies for dealing with the effects of global warming, as even radical actions to combat it will not immediately avert it or its negative effects, assuming they have any effect at all. The precautionary principle does suggest that we should take action on the assumption that there is a link between atmospheric emissions and climate change, especially since atmospheric emissions do have links with other things that it might be best to try to limit, such as acid rain, the link to which was discovered in 1852 and is, I think, fairly widely accepted.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 06.09.07
Nearly forgot. Can you charge a sigil with global warming?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:12 / 06.09.07
CHaus: One, I'm not saying that AGW is a lie. Neither do I believe it is a fact ala the theory of evolution. What I'm saying is that I believe there might be cause for worry if the emotional fervour and alarm expressed in the AGW vs GW makes for soundbite-friendly solutions tailored to appease a frightened and recalcitrant public at the expense of saner and more sustainable solution that might not sound sexy enough to appease the sensation-hungry.

Two, leave the sigils out of this, pretty please.

Three, I quote, For reference, the answer is yes, it does. If global warming has nothing to do with human agency, it does indeed make sense not to try to curb activities identified as contributing to global warming. If it has something to do with etc, it makes sense to try to curb acitvities etc. In either case, it is also important to adopt new strategies for dealing with the effects of global warming, as even radical actions to combat it will not immediately avert it or its negative effects, assuming they have any effect at all.

But, whether or not AGW is the case don't we have a duty to work out strategies to mitigate the risks inherent in GW? And in any case, actions that are now believed to contribute to GW might well be harmful in ways that have nothing to do with GW, and may so be worth stopping or reducing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 06.09.07
OK, so you're saying that we shouldn't suggest that climate change is affected by human actions, because it might panic people into demanding extreme solutions that will not work rather than non-extreme solutions that will, but we should nonetheless behave as if climate change is affected by human actions, on the grounds that it might be (as the majority of scientific opinion suggests), and that even if it is not, it would be a good idea to behave as if it did in order to avooid other adverse effects of air pollution?

So, in effect, we take action based on the assumption that we need to behave as if human activity causes climate change, but not tell the masses that that is what we are doing, in case they panic? As a practising chaote, I certainly see that the masses are prone to overreaction, stupidity and throwing me into hedges, but do you not think that even they might twig at some point that lots of actions are being taken that suggest a belief in at the very least an action-justifying probability of a link between human activity and climate change?

I feel like I'm missing a step in the argument...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
17:49 / 06.09.07
OK, so you're saying that we shouldn't suggest that climate change is affected by human actions, because it might panic people into demanding extreme solutions that will not work rather than non-extreme solutions that will,

No. Those are your words. What I am saying is people and orgs insisting on AGW as an incontrovertible fact often use that assertion rhetorically to whip up a form of eco-puritanism which I think might be more harmful than helpful. I believe topics such as deforestation, lack of water and loss of biodiversity (which are incontrovertibly linked to human actions) are more pressing issues.

but we should nonetheless behave as if climate change is affected by human actions, on the grounds that it might be (as the majority of scientific opinion suggests), and that even if it is not, it would be a good idea to behave as if it did in order to avooid other adverse effects of air pollution?

Again, no. We should behave as if GW (and climate change is strictly speaking not the same as GW) is a reality (I for one believe it is) and prepare ourselves accordingly. Whether or not we are wholly or partly responsible, if we get a rise in sealevels, climate chaos etc as predicted by the mainstream we ought to take measures that will allow us to adapt to these changes with a minimum of disruption to vital societal functions and structures.
And the precautionary principle is a decent yardstick for a lot policy decisions in that regard.

Hmm.

I know I'm not the best at formulating myself, but was I really that shit? To repeat/revise myself: Are anyone willing to entertain the notion that maybe, just maybe, it's not a great idea to frame the (A)GW discourse in terms of DOOM! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE! and instead try and take a slightly less shrill approach? I might be read as saying boo to the use of emotionality, rhetoric, imagery and such in the process of engaging the public, policy and production sectors in mitigating the negative impacts of GW. That is not the case, and if people believe that is what I mean I clearly haven't expressed myself very well. What I am saying is that my broad reading of the tone of the AGW-compliant media nowadays is one where negative emotions are dominating - there is a tendency to play on notions of dread, sin and shame. There's a lot of evidence that public engagement strategies that play on fear and negative imagery in order to reduce ambiguity and increase compliance with unpopular policies have a very bad track record. Witness the many say no to drug-campaigns who've had no effect whatsoever.
Or I can make an analogy from Pavlovian conditioning - rewards work better than punishments in most learning contexts.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:13 / 06.09.07
OK, I think I see the problem. You appear to be combining the idea that human action causes climate change and the idea that climate change is the greatest single threat to human existence. Either of these may well be true, but they do not necessitate each other. So, yes. I don't think anyone is proposing that no actions should be taken to mitigate the impact of predicted climate change, regardless of whether climate change has a human component. You yourself seem to believe that it might be wise to curb processes that are identified as conducive to climate change, since even if they do not cause climate change they may have other negative consequences.

So, yes. I think the confusion for me is in the idea that the idea that we can as a species take actions that have consequences for the global climate has the necessary message DOOM! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!. It is this, I feel, that is causing me problems. Is it that:

There's a lot of evidence that public engagement strategies that play on fear and negative imagery in order to reduce ambiguity and increase compliance with unpopular policies have a very bad track record. Witness the many say no to drug-campaigns who've had no effect whatsoever.

And that there is simply no way to communicate the idea that climate change is affected by human activity without bringing the mood in the room down to the extent that nothing worthwhile could be achieved, either in terms of curbing emissions or dealing with deforestry &c?

Certainly, it's a weighty topic, but I don't think it's as clear-cut as you think. For example, I have in my hand "ICount: the step-by-step guide to Climate Bliss", a Penguin publication I bought at the Quaker Centre in Euston. The back cover blurb reads "You hold in your hand the power to stop climate chaos. Feels pretty good, doesn't it?". It's a slim, cheerful book aimed at practical actions an individual can take. It's possibly a bit light, but it's not _doomy_.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:01 / 07.09.07
If we wanted to talk about what sort of actions needed to be taken, I think Robert Newman is right when he says:

There is no meaningful response to climate change without massive social change. A cap on this and a quota on the other won't do it. Tinker at the edges as we may, we cannot sustain earth's life-support systems within the present economic system.

Capitalism is not sustainable by its very nature. It is predicated on infinitely expanding markets, faster consumption and bigger production in a finite planet. And yet this ideological model remains the central organising principle of our lives, and as long as it continues to be so it will automatically undo (with its invisible hand) every single green initiative anybody cares to come up with.


Now, once we identify Capitalism as a state that needs everyone to ignore or do-down Climate Change in order not to be shown up for the bad state which it surely is, we ought to become rather suspicious of anyone who says that Climate Change isn't a problem, or that it isn't being caused by human activity; no, they're not neccesarily wrong, but if you live under Bad King Bob it makes sense to be distrustful of anyone who seems to agree with Bad King Bob, inasmuch as they have the weight of Bad King Bob's money and power behind them.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:25 / 07.09.07
Also Zizek has something to say on this, which I will attempt to dig up.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:27 / 13.09.07
First things 1st - sorry for taking so long to get back on topic. Busy and busy and away and now not entirely sure where to go from here.

CHaus:
You appear to be combining the idea that human action causes climate change and the idea that climate change is the greatest single threat to human existence. Either of these may well be true, but they do not necessitate each other.

Indeed I do - and that's because I try to take my cue from the dominant media framing of these issues. AGW is now routinely said to be a greater threat than terrorism, which has only recently taken the baton from nuclear war as the no 1 Baddest Event. Witness the recently published report by the International Institute for Strategic Studies which is widely reported in the media under headlines like this one from Reuters: Global warming impact like "nuclear war": report

Your book sounds both optimistic and helpful. More of that please!

I think the confusion for me is in the idea that the idea that we can as a species take actions that have consequences for the global climate has the necessary message DOOM! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!.

Did I say that? Sounds a tad sweeping in hindsight. I don't believe I said that the coupling is necessarily there (correct me if I'm wrong). See above for what I meant and believe I stated. Again, the basic problem I see is that as grant correctly said at the start of the thread, one of the basic problems - that risk-mitigative actions are large, expensive and without immediate and tangible results - is exacerbated by the negative, fearful and aversion-inducing media framing that dominates the current picture.


And please don't let rip with the "Climate change denier!" monkey business. I am not that. AR - I'll get back to you later. Now I'm off for a post-work drink.
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
11:51 / 19.09.07
Well yes there is definitely a negative framing around much of the global warming issue, but as Haus has pointed out there is a lot of stuff out there with a positive spin.

The majority of the positive spin is definitely aimed at individuals and business to highlight the savings they can easily make. But who is the negative framing aimed at? Is it just aimed at government and big business (who have the most potential to actually make a difference) or are we at the stage where individual people feel guilty for having a long shower / leaving the air conditioning on / driving an SUV? I guess a good example where this is starting to happen might be plane flights.

The scale of the issue is always going to be the problem. It's very easy for developed countries to talk about adapting to a changing climate, but maybe not as easy for developing countries (who for this reason are expected to face the brunt of any climate change that does happen...)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:36 / 19.09.07
I still don't really understand the distinction that you're drawing, Nolte. You say:

Again, the basic problem I see is that as grant correctly said at the start of the thread, one of the basic problems - that risk-mitigative actions are large, expensive and without immediate and tangible results - is exacerbated by the negative, fearful and aversion-inducing media framing that dominates the current picture.


However, there is no evidence that this is a problem. Since most significant decisions about climate change will ultimately be taken by governments, it seems unwise to demand that the studies presented to them not be too depressing. Further, there is also no logical connection that I can see between the question of whether climate change is man-made and the likelihood of action being taken to ameliorate it. I'll try again, because I still appear to be missing something.

Do you mean, Nolte, that massive changes to the climate are inevitable, regardless of whether those changes are a result of man's actions or not, because man's actions are not going to change to a degree that would prevent massive change to the climate even if those changes were to be effectual, and therefore that we should stop giving people the impression that there is any point in attempting to prevent or ameliorate it, since their desire to do so serves no useful purpose, and concentrate on efforts to ameliorate the impact of the inevitable and inevitably of severity x climate change?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
13:22 / 19.09.07
Allmacto said
Now, once we identify Capitalism as a state that needs everyone to ignore or do-down Climate Change in order not to be shown up for the bad state which it surely is, we ought to become rather suspicious of anyone who says that Climate Change isn't a problem, or that it isn't being caused by human activity; no, they're not neccesarily wrong, but if you live under Bad King Bob it makes sense to be distrustful of anyone who seems to agree with Bad King Bob, inasmuch as they have the weight of Bad King Bob's money and power behind them.

I'm interpreting the first sentence to mean state as in negative or positive state, not as in nation-state. Otherwise it doesn't really make sense to me.

That cleared, I still don't believe you're entirely right in saying that capitalism needs us to ignore GW. Unbounded laissez-faire capitalism could certainly imply ignorance of finite resources and finite growth in markets and most other environmental constraints. But there is no such thing as laissez-faire capitalism outside of the textbooks. What we have on the ground looks IMO more like a crazy hybrid of corporatism, plutocratic and militaristic oligarchies, West Europe/Scandinavia-style mixed economies and a host of conflicting mechanisms of exchange and distribution that nowadays is lumped together under the term "neo-liberal capitalism". IMO capitalism doesn't per se rule out environmentalism or a fight against GW. I'm using a very simple definiton of capitalism here - capitalism is a sociotechnical system wherein a significant part of activities where goods are produced have making a profit as one of the central goals. And if I may define environmentalism as the active, on the ground solving of environmental problems, I do believe that one can solve environmental problems and make a profit at the same time, thus by my definition engaging in or creating a capitalist environmentalism.

Ok, so, next up you say we should be suspicious of anyone who says that CC isn't a problem or that it isn't being caused by human activity. Well, yes, we sure as hell should be sceptical and demand some pretty solid evidence from people who say climate change is not gonna be a problem. But as far as I can see, most King Bobs other than Uncle "King" Sam (and even he is slowly changing) seem to be pretty much clear that humans are to blame for climate change and that CC is or will be a major problem. That is not the issue I'm trying to flag up. Again, I'm not disputing the existence of GW/CC or for that matter am I necessarily disputing the causal role of mankind. What I am trying to spur some thoughts on is several things:

1. Does it seem to people that (A)GW is presented in the media primarily as something we should be afraid of? It does to me.
2. Does it seem to people that the most frequently proposed solutions are of the variety "don't do X"? It does to me.
3. Does it matters whether solutions to CC/GW are presented as actions we should avoid or actions we should approach? It does to me - in that I believe that insufficient information is generated about how to approach GW/CC as an outstanding social and political opportunity to realign our basic actions, values and orientations from non-sustainable and dull to sustainable and bright. I'm saying - we've got to frame our approach to GW/CC as a gain, not as a loss, as a hope, not as a nightmare, as increasing wealth, not decreasing it (for more on that see here), and making wealth more equally distributed, not less. ARRR..
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:29 / 19.09.07
I think using the phrase "Bad King Bob" was a mistake in the first place, and would encourage that avenue not to be pursued...
 
 
Lagrange's Nightmare
15:12 / 19.09.07
I'm saying - we've got to frame our approach to GW/CC as a gain, not as a loss, as a hope, not as a nightmare, as increasing wealth, not decreasing it (for more on that see here)

Ah I just knew that was going to be a link to something RMI related before i even opened it. A complaint i have seen with RMI is that they make things sound too easy, so obvious that people assume that companies will have to change their ways. They seem to be very good at writing polemics but unfortunately life is a little more difficult then that. Even for the 'natural capitalism' type methods to work you need environmental externalities to be accounted for, which many companies even now strongly disagree with..

Interestingly Nolte you've now referenced two sources: the first article which essentially said it's all too hard we won't make any difference and the second article on natural capitalism which paints a very fist pumping, yeah we can do it! picture. Both of these of course differ from the negative/moralising view on climate change, but is there one you identify with more?
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:21 / 19.09.07
addled: Yes, I do admit to a certain fondness for Lovins et al. And of course there's gonna be problems with their approach as well. The reason I cited them (other than that I like them) is that they represent a distinct and consistent style of proposing innovative solutions that focus on optimism and growth - effectively coopting core industrialist-capitalist values. The reason I cited the Newsweek article was that I agree with the opinion put forth there (I paraphrase) - the media presentation (that I perceive) is often, too often, one of good guys vs bad guys, focussing on a) attributing blame and b) the global damage. So, I referred to the natural capital article because it proposes locally actionable solutions to some of the problems of CC/GW without falling into the trap of futile blaming and abstract doom-mongering as identified in the Newsweek article.

In regards to which I prefer - well, I've got to go with the Lovins one - hell, at least they believe there are solutions!
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:38 / 19.09.07
the media presentation (that I perceive) is often, too often, one of good guys vs bad guys

Isn't this Machiavellian world-view effective in motivating people though? Aren't there some genuine bastards out there when it comes to climate change, such as 'scientists' willing to take oil company dollars to deny that humans cause climate change and can therefore stop it? Why should it be the job of Science and the media to avoid a 'doom 'n' gloom' representation of GW/CC if the reality of the situation is doom and/or gloom. Fifty years ago this exact same debate was happening with the links between a human activity (smoking) and lung cancer. Those doom'n'gloom spreading scientists were trying to harsh everybody's vibe by telling people that the rich, smooth taste of Laramie tobacco is "primarily as something we should be afraid of". Furthermore, those uptight know-it-alls bummed everybody because their "most frequently proposed solutions are of the variety "don't do X"", that is, don't smoke the smooth blend of 16 Virginia tobaccos in Laramie 100s or new Laramie Ultra-Lights.
Now, perhaps those same scientists may one day come up with a way to enjoy the authentic taste of Laramie cigarettes without all that icky cancer. It could happen. Until then there's only one thing they can tell people: if you smoke you could die painfully. The deal with Climate Change is the same: we may come up with a solution before things start getting really bad, and there's no doubt that we should try to find one, but in the mean time there are things we can do, some of them requiring a degree of self-sacrifice, to postpone the inevitable. Yeah, it's hard to do, but then quitting smoking was hard for me; it was hard for kids in my parent's generation to sit through those 'duck and cover' videos in case the Bomb was dropped, it was hard for my grandparent's generation to give up chocolates and nylon stockings for the war effort. The message from those in the know, conveyed to the public via the media during the Cold and Second World wars was the same: there's a genuine threat and if we're to make it through we'll have to a) accept the threat as real and extensive and b) make some sacrifices, and even then it might not be enough. The message with Climate Change is the same, and it's not the role of Science or the media to wrap you up in a warm cotton blanket and tell you everything is okay.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
11:11 / 20.09.07
Ya know Phex, that's a nifty analogy. And in fact there's a lot of CC deniers, individuals and organisations, who have also been on the pay-roll of Big Tobacco! Deny one deny them all! More on that here.

But that doesn't make your analogy entirely apt. First of all, for the nth time - I AM NOT DENYING CLIMATE CHANGE, GLOBAL WARMING OR EVEN THE FACT THAT HUMANS ARE TO BLAME!

Ok?

My point is and has been - whether or not humans are to blame, will focussing on who's to blame, with the consequence that we single out who's to pay for undoing it (the polluters), be as effective as other motivational, fiscal and political strategies? I'm thinking here of the gist of Schelling's proposals - that we focus on general economic development in poor countries because a) these will take the most punishment and b) these interventions will be the most cost-effective.

Second - I think a lot people in public health campaigning would be astonished to hear your version of how we get people to quit smoking. Negative information about smoking have been found to be effective for certain age groups under certain conditions, but there was and is by no means a 1:1 positive correlation between the negativity of information and the cessation of smoking or the belief in the science of negative effects from smoking across populations. Cessation effects are often small and the cost-effectiveness of the campaigns are often questionable. See here for a reasonably up-to-date UK trial, where smoking prevalence was reduced by 1.2% over a 18 month period. And of course the mere fact that In 2006, 24 per cent of people aged 16-74 smoked daily in Norway - a country with very heavy anti-smoking campaigns focussing on the grim consequences of smoking, with a 3 decades long ban on advertising, a ban on public smoking and some of the heaviest tobacco taxation known to man - is IMO a pretty good counter-example.

From what I've seen in the health communication field the most effective campaigns are those that are targeted at specific behaviours that are easily identified and distinct, in combination with community interventions (eg smoking cessation clinics) and other social, fiscal and political measures (eg taxation).

So. It has dawned on me that my initial question has some similarities with that expressed by the Copenhagen Consensus - in that there may be more cost-effective ways of helping the people who are most likely to be most negatively affected by CC than the "polluter pays" principle enshrined in the Kyoto protocol, and the intense focus on undoing CC at the expence (IMHO) of mitigation and adaptation.

Now, of course the rationalist c-b analysis of the distinguished economists in the Copenhagen consensus is for nowt if we wreck the climate. There's literally no price that can be put on the value of having a stable climate. To quote Tom Burke, formerly of the Friends of the Earth: "It is a vanity of economists to believe that all choices can be boiled down to calculations of monetary value. In the real world, outcomes are not so easily managed. A stable climate is something we might now call a system condition for civilisation. That is, it is something without which civilisation is impossible - though it is not, of course, itself a guarantee that there will be civilisation." This is all dandy, except it ignores one thing - there has not and there will not be such a thing as a stable climate across the time scales with which we measure civilisations. The Little Ice Age provides at least a crude example of how Western Europe could adapt to relatively abrupt climate change without foundering. And even an unpredictable climate can predictably unpredictable and thus modelled to vary within certain parameter values. I like to believe, but have no hard evidence, that our present post-industrial civilisation can adapt to relatively rapid negative changes in the climate without either destroying ourselves or the biosphere upon which we crucially and necessarily depend.

(Need a breather - will gather thouhts and come back with more shortly about the effects of attribution biases in the willingness to pay for mitigative/adaptive action. Also need to do some freaking work...)
 
 
Closed for Business Time
12:41 / 20.09.07
In the meantime - this article from today's Independent has some points similar to those I make. Do read the whole thing, I'll just quote the bit I think is most relevant to my spin on the CC discourse.

"In an information-filled world, people screen heavily what new information they let in, and I suspect that the run-of-the-mill global-warming story is just not crossing the threshold," says the climate scientist Dr Susanne Moser, the co-author of Creating a Climate for Change: Communicating Climate Change and Facilitating Social Change. By run-of-the-mill, she means those all-too-familiar stories about melting ice shelves or endangered species. "Thinking about a global, complex, challenging, and potentially very dangerous and disastrous thing and not knowing what to do about it makes us go numb or into denial."

The antidote to numbness and denial is a sense of progress, of things getting better. But in the fight against climate change, progress is hard to come by. Moser uses the analogy of a diet. How long would you stay on a diet that demanded stringent effort over a prolonged period and promised only that that your weight gain might slow down a bit? Let's face it, it wouldn't make the cover of Grazia.

She also admits that "we have terribly failed our audience" by focusing on apocalyptic scenarios and complex science. Instead, one key factor in keeping people enthused in the fight against climate change will be local, collective action, she says.

"Why do people go to Alcoholics Anonymous, or to Weight Watchers? Because in a group of like-minded people they have the support, accountability, peer pressure and the shared experience of others to help make the change. They also have opportunities to come together, check on progress, and get support around setbacks. That's what we need for climate change – to recover from our fuel addiction."
 
 
pfhlick
18:48 / 23.09.07
She also admits that "we have terribly failed our audience" by focusing on apocalyptic scenarios and complex science. Instead, one key factor in keeping people enthused in the fight against climate change will be local, collective action, she says.

This has some merit. Global warming end-of-the-wold scenarios have been around since the 60s and filtered down to my lowly hole, but have always left me with a sense of helplessness. If the issue is always framed as "the fight against climate change" rather than as "building sustainable communities", widespread hopelessness makes sense. Living in the midst of a technological civilization, dependent upon fleets of trucks for basics like food and clean water, it is difficult to imagine what a society that did not see itself as being at odds with its environment would be like.

I've recently read a pair of books that do offer that sort of vision: George Monbiot's Heat and Bill McKibben's Deep Economy. Heat is a proposal for an 80% reduction in carbon emissions by 2030 (fat chance, huh?). Monbiot's most realistic proposals have to do with transportation - specifically, designing highly efficient busing systems and drastically reducing the number of cars on the roadways, and stopping needless further expansion of roads. The book is very informative and though it takes its subject seriously, it's sprinkled with enough wit to keep you from bursting into tears.

Deep Economy is posed more as a challenge to the notion that more is always better, pointing out at the beginning that unlimited growth is obviously unsustainable (which brings us back upthread a bit to All Acting Regiment's comment). McKibben has a keen eye for waste in the system and plenty of ideas of how less is more, if used correctly.

I've done the reading, but I'm still stuck shopping at the supermarket (though at least I ride my bike there). How do I convince my neighbors they shouldn't fly, or the landlord to look into solar energy (and insulation for that matter!) or the supermarket to deliver groceries, or my government to stop wasting money and fuel on supersonic jets? That's the hard work.
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:58 / 23.09.07
Yeah, hard work but there's tech - like Joanna Macy's work for example - and some people are working this way, particularly permaculturists I think. (At least those are the sources I got that approach from.)

Have you come across the 'transition town'/ 'transition city' movements? They're an offshoot of permaculture, recruiting a wide variety of people in a locality to do collective planning based on a 20year plus timescale. Also known as Energy Descent Action Planning.

It seems that getting people to talk about securing quality of life in a 20+year time frame helps everyone get aligned with each other, in practice. Bristol's the biggest of those projects I'm aware of. We've discussed this a bit on the board before: I remember expressions of frustration at the apparent impossibility of implementing sane planning for a city the size of London, but maybe we have to work up?
 
  
Add Your Reply