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Sigils: scrapbook or shit-can?

 
 
Smash Gladly
14:59 / 23.08.07
Just starting out and wavering about the apparent contradiction of what's to be done with sigils after imprinting/launching. While notable sources emphasize keeping notes on your practice to gauge progress and track results - they also ceremonialize the destruction of the thing as the consciousness has to forget it so that the unconscious can obey its encoded direction without hindrance. Does one destroy and forget or remark upon and watch?

If I keep a record I won't forget. If I forget I can't chart progress. Are recurring check-ins a kind of lust for result? Which do you do? With what results? Am I seeing a contradiction where none exists?
 
 
EvskiG
15:43 / 23.08.07
Personally, I tear 'em up, toss 'em, and forget about 'em.

If the result you wanted comes to pass, you'll remember the working. If it doesn't, eventually you'll remember.

Then you can write down your impressions.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:28 / 23.08.07
I think of it like losing keys, if i forget stop looking and let go of the hunt for them, it comes back to me in a flash.

You forget to make it manifest.
 
 
Liadan
18:30 / 23.08.07
If you have a friend to work with, you might try having them keep the record?
 
 
downgrade
18:46 / 23.08.07
i have one that keeps moving on me. as in i will place it in a very obvious spot and in a day or two its in a drawer or in a jacket pocket. ive very deliberately kept an eye on it and it still moves or someone moves it. because of the nature of the working im thinking its a bad omen, ha ha.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
19:32 / 23.08.07
If the result you wanted comes to pass, you'll remember the working. If it doesn't, eventually you'll remember.

Doesn't that run the risk of fooling ourselves into thinking that what's happening is anything other than coincidence? If we only remember workings that actually work, doesn't that skew the percentage rate of success in our minds and, worse still, prevent us from working out what went wrong with the ones that didn't work so that we can improve on that rate?
 
 
EmberLeo
20:35 / 23.08.07
If I keep a record I won't forget. If I forget I can't chart progress. Are recurring check-ins a kind of lust for result? Which do you do? With what results? Am I seeing a contradiction where none exists?

I don't do specifically sigil work. I do work with bindrunes, and I've never made a point of destroying them - on the contrary, I've made a point of drawing them on myself in Henna, which makes it rather hard to forget them after staring at them for a couple weeks.

This may not apply to specifically sigil work, I admit, but for what it's worth:

I used to wrestle with the "forget" aspect of magic myself, because that's the way my father taught me. The problem is, I just can't forget. I don't have a perfect memory, but I have a rather strong memory, especially for shapes, and in every other aspect of my life forgetting is a bad thing. So forgetting just isn't how I work most of the time.

But I can let go. I can give up, and decide that a working I attempted just doesn't matter anymore, or that it's done, and there's nothing I can do, or some other such detaching from the work. And that's really the point - stop pushing for a result with your concious will. More to the point, stop pushing before your doubt kicks in, or you push your doubts, and voila, you get what you feared instead of what you wanted, which is usually failure.

That said, perhaps you can keep a journal of your sigil work without actually recording the sigils themselves? Or you can keep a journal of copies of the sigils and tear up the original?

This is just me being creative at you, but... Perhaps you might consider storing the record of them before you tear up, and then make a point of not reading the journal for a set amount of time after any given sigil? If you do sigils too close to eachother for this to work, maybe have a binder with folders that can hide currently active projects, or somesuch?

*shrugs* Get creative! It's only yourself you're trying to do an end-run around.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:54 / 23.08.07
If you've been doing sigils for a few years and everything's still shit, try something else.
 
 
Mako is a hungry fish
10:29 / 24.08.07
What's the point of forgetting them anyway?

Is it so that conflicting forces within oneself don't sabotage the working? For instance, if someone wanting money = force (a), whereas (to them) using magic to get money is bad = force (b), is the purpose of forgetting once force (a) has been set in motion in order to prevent force (b) from acting upon force (a), Newtonian style?

Even if one is able to consciously forget, don't the two forces still rattle around in the subconscious and act on each other? If they do, is it then a case that in such a state, force (b) isn't able to muster up the focused intention to go out into the universe to counteract force (a), or at least not to the degree that will prevent its motion?

Isn't it better just to work on oneself so that force (b) is no longer present?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:16 / 24.08.07
You might profit from going back to first principles and reading AOS' writings on the topic, from which much sigil theory is derived. I would also heartily recommend Jan Fries' Visual Magick, which has some useful discussion regarding theory, technique, and the limitations of sigils. I'd also recommend sniffing around the archives here in the Temple, as we have had much discussion of the topic over the years. You could start with Sigils for Beginners, which links to a nuymber of older threads. You might also benefit from reading this critique: Sigils are Stupid.
 
 
EmberLeo
06:25 / 28.08.07
Ooh, thank you for those links. I apparently didn't think of the right search strings last time I went looking for such.
--Ember--
 
 
akira
12:36 / 04.09.07
Has anyone had any success launching sigils by looking at the whilst sneezing?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:30 / 04.09.07
Why not try it and then tell us how it worked?
 
 
akira
13:34 / 04.09.07
I've only just sneezed lol, hardly ever do it but will keep a sigil on hand, just incase.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:40 / 04.09.07
Sorry, guys - I know you are probably all waiting for my advice and training on this issue, but I am kind of busy right now with this totally awesome succubus summoning ritual. I will try to finish up and post here ASAP.
 
 
akira
13:43 / 04.09.07
Its not going to work is it? Unless I put the sigil down somewhere and force my eyes to stay open...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:00 / 04.09.07
or unless you visualize the image intensely as you feel a sneeze coming on.
 
 
EmberLeo
18:51 / 04.09.07
Or, you know... pepper?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:53 / 04.09.07
Oh God.
 
 
akira
09:01 / 05.09.07
I was thinking pepper in my eyes for a second there. Not with it this week.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:33 / 05.09.07
What is it with sigil threads? Every time we have an active sigil thread, somebody or several somebodies will automatically pop up to ask "What would happen if I charged a sigil by [some achingly simple and completely harmless activity]?" Can you charge a sigil by writing it on a wall? Can you chrge a sigil by staring at it while you wait for a bus? Can you charge a sigil by drawing it on a lady's face when you do it? Gee, gosh, I don't know, I guess the thing to do would be to sit around and speculate pointlessly for a few more posts, wouldn't want to do anything crazy like actually TRY it. The world might end.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:34 / 05.09.07
If you put pepper in your eyes the SEcret Chiefs immediately make you an ipsisissims. TRU FAX.
 
 
akira
10:42 / 05.09.07
I just thought it'd be better to ask if anyone had had any experiance with this technique before I waste my time waiting for a sneezegasm to happen.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:33 / 05.09.07
Would you really waste that much of your time if you just tried it though, as compared to the amount of time you are wasting speculating about it on the internet?
 
 
akira
12:23 / 05.09.07
Internet is a very general term, this is a message board right? Maybe I should have put it in the "Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions thread. Will do next time.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:28 / 05.09.07
I think we've reached a point here where you can all profit from my wisdom. I think this instruction should help you all to improve your practice.

First make your sigil. Easiest way to do that is just think of a sentence and then write all the letters of the sentence on top of each other. SIGIL GO! Totally incomprehensible.

This is the difficult bit. This bit really separates the majick men from the boys.

First up, trousers and pants off. Do _not_ be seduced into just pulling your pants down. It may be convenient, and it might be handy if your mum comes in, but it is not worth the risk that a sudden bunching might affect your pranic flow. Some favour an athletic support of some kind. That's a matter of taste.

Many disciples favour the lotus position or something amateur hour like that, but actually it's much better to lie down, especially when sitting in the middle of the room would make it harder to see the TV.

Now, if you want to achieve maximum cosmic power, _moisture is essential_. Hand cream is not only smooth and gentle, but also superbly deniable. Any mum-related issues can be easily resolved, especially if you have taken my advice and covered up in bed. What could be more normal than a young majickian moisturising his hands in bed with no trousers on. Or pants.

So, if you've got your sigil, your hand cream and a comfortable stance, you're ready to make the magic.

Start with slow, rhythmic acts of magic. Then speed up until you are performing magic furiously. DO NOT OVEREXTEND. Magic will come naturally. If you've charged more than three or four sigils, that day, limited results suggest that you might want to collect your energies by having a nap.

It has often been said that you should think of the mandala you have generated while charging the sigil. However, if you can manage five charges a day while thinking about an ink squiggle, you're a better practicing chaote than I am. Since you're probably trying to get sex with a hot lady, it often saves time to think about having sex with a hot lady. If your sigil is aimed at a particular lady, just think about her. If it's about getting sex with hot ladies generally and severally, that's a bit trickier. I find that the easiest and best way to do this is to use a "spiritual focus" or "totem lady" who has been the subject of constant etheric friction - just as a needle can be demagnetised, once magnetised, by repeated rubbing.

Tasha Yar, security officer of the USS Enterprise, is a good choice. In particular, this is because she is dead and therefore will not tell your mum. If you feel bad about using a dead person, remember that Denise Crosby is alive, but not as hot, and doesn't even know your mum anyway, so that's fine.

You should try to think as little about your mum as possible. Yes, it would indeed freak out the mundanes, but it's just icky and disruptive to the flow of magical energy. You can freak them out by telling them that you were thinking about their mum. You can think about their mum if you like. Messing with their minds.

Three minutes or so is enough for your average sigil. If you need an extra jolt of power, try taking a break halfway through. Stretch your legs. Listen to some music. Apoptygma Bezerk are both extremely magical and can cover even a medium-loud gasp of "Tasha". If you have chosen to supplement your practice with some pornography, don't forget to turn it down before you turn on the Bezerk. The mixture of slap-funk guitar and tenebrous evil can cause psychic feedback.

Now, if you have planned this all out well, you should have a fully charged sigil in the time it takes to download a PDF of Seth's Post-Modern Magic. Preparation, as ever, is very important. A true magus always has access to dry and wet wipes. You can get the latter from fried chicken places. Just take more than you need.

So, at the end of all that you have one supercharged sigil. Dispose of it, along with the wipes, and just wait for the magic to happen. There's no need consciously to forget the objective - just go straight into charging another sigil, thinking about something else. Possibly the young Marina Sirtis.

Lust for? Result!
 
 
akira
12:50 / 05.09.07
Making magic is a lot of hard work. Then soft work. Then hard work.
 
 
Ticker
13:19 / 05.09.07
the only serious sigil work I've done is with my spouse for our wedding stuffs as they were part of his practice.

It was actually a really wonderful simple collaboration to rework a piece of magical poetry back and forth until it became three strands of sigils. One set from each of us and then a mixed one we pushed back and forth. Then we gave the images to a friend of ours who is a silversmith for our wedding rings, and she changed them a bit more. Finally the tattoo artist who used the rings as a template changed them even more. Oh and as the ink is on a finger joint it has been fading (himself's more than mine). so it has been a very interesting process.

The spouse felt the charging would happen on its own and we didn't need to get all sexmified. He does think it's very funny and semi counterproductive that I try to remember which design is attached to which part of the words rather than letting go.

Our tattoo artist was probably the most impressed with the idea and asked for more information on sigil making from the spouse. I've talked to a few people who have thought about getting water tattoo'd to carry sigils until I explain that some tattoos will scar very finely even without ink.

The spouse does tease me to no end about a hypersigil I wrote (though I didn't know that term at the time) and how it produced him out of the ether(nets). Different topic I suppose...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:31 / 05.09.07
Maybe I should have put it in the "Stupid" magick, religion and spirituality questions thread.

You could have done that, or alternatively, you could have just tried it out for yourself and then written something here about how it went, how you felt about it, what the positives were, what shortcomings or limitations you observed from the method, how it compared to other things you've tried, and so on.

I think if this space is going to continue to grow and not atrophy - as it seems to be more and more of late - it could do with more people actively writing about their experiences and reflecting, both enthusiastically and critically, on those experieces - and less of a sense of this place as a resource where you can go and chuck in a question and hopefully get a response from someone who has tried it so you don't have to. What works for someone else might not work for you. Your experience is ultimately the only laboratory that really matters in magic, and the experiences and opinions of others are always going to be secondary resources.

I might tell you, for instance, that this whole approach to sigilisation - where you are constantly looking for different ways to charge your sigil (sneezing, masturbation, spinning till you get dizzy, bunjee jumping, etc) - is really limiting and can get a bit creatively stifling. You come across a lot of people who have taken on board the idea that the only real avenue of creativity in sorcery is in finding different ways to attain gnosis in order to charge your sigil. I think this idea comes from the mistaken yet prevalent belief that ALL sorcery runs off the same core dynamic as the sigil method - which it doesn't. It gets a bit frustrating when I see people caught up in this, and endlessly chasing new ways to charge that sigil, as it gives the impression of a really stiff and unimaginative practice that has not thought to question the received wisdom of chaos magic or experiment beyond the confines of that method.

BUT, anything that I can tell you about magic based on my own experiences and opinions is NOT as valuable to you as the opinions that you might form yourself through trial and error. You can often learn loads from exploring the roads that ultimately turn out to be dead ends for you, and to avoid experimenting with something altogether because some random person on the internet told you not to bother - regardless of who that person may be and how strongly they may have put their argument - is simply depriving yourself of the opportunity to learn something for yourself. You can't really learn magic that way, not really. It doesn't come out of books or on message boards. It doesn't come secondhand. All you can ever know about magic is what emerges directly out of your own experience. Then it becomes your magic, not someone elses.

Yeah, spaces like this can be really valuable, and you can get a lot from comparing notes with your peers and seeing what other people think about stuff, but that does not and cannot ever replace trying something out for yourself and then seeing what YOU think about it. Especially something as easy and low risk as sneezing over a sigil. For anything that you think might be a bit more dicey, err on the side of caution and put your question to the floor, for sure, because if you can avoid making schoolboy errors with a bit of preparation, it's silly not to. But always go with your gut instinct. You know, deep down, if you listen to your instincts, what forms of magic are right for you and what forms are not. The trick is in listening to those voices and following that thread until your own magic begins to emerge, not mine, not Peter Carrolls, not Aleister Crowleys. Once that starts happening, cultivate it, help it grow, let it flourish, bring it into the world and use it where it counts - hopefully to make positive change in your life and the lives of those around you. Then, if you like, come here and share whatever aspects of it you are comfortable sharing.

Hope some of this is useful or interesting.
 
 
akira
13:42 / 05.09.07
Wow, thanks Gypsy, I was expecting to get burned there, I had a whitty retort prepared and everything. I'm glad I made a dick out of myself now and inspired you to write that.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:09 / 05.09.07
You didn't make a dick out of yourself, and there is no point in beating yourself up over what was presumably a valid question that you wanted answering. Neither is there any point at all in me judging you for not having had the same experiences with sigil work as I have, and not having arrived at exactly the same conclusions yourself.

I had quite a funny response lined up yesterday where I was going to suggest that homeless people or the elderly sometimes have colds in the winter, and a clever magician could spend time hanging round them to hijack their colds for their own magical empowerment. Where would that have got us? Fucking nowhere.

The only reason for this place existing at all is to support the growth and development of all its members at whatever stage of their practice and at whatever experience level. If it's not about that, then we might as well give up now. And that includes supporting the development of certain long established posters as they observe their own shortcomings and try to develop more productive ways of engaging with others than the kneejerk ones that they habitually fall into during certain types of debate. There is nothing to be gained by behaving as pointless caricatures of ourselves is there.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:13 / 05.09.07
Although, putting compassionate hippy bollocks aside for a moment, Invisible CHaus Majickian's response to this thread was so funny I had to stop reading it in places as I was getting some strange looks in my open plan office for laughing uncontrollably at my desk.

And you spelt "witty" wrong.
 
 
EvskiG
15:03 / 05.09.07
Also, Marina Sirtis? Denise Crosby?

Sounds a bit dated.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:11 / 05.09.07
Not Denise Crosby. Tasha Yar.

Neophyte.
 
 
akira
15:13 / 05.09.07
Yea it was a valid question. I dont have any friends into this sort of thing, so I thought posting here would be the best way to get info, I completely (spelt right, I checked it) understand your point about finding out for yourself. I'll bare that in mind next time I have an idea, explore it more first.

And as for my witty retort it was something like; I respect you Gypsy (and I do), but you should know not to argue with a fool, I'll bring you down to my level and beat you with experience.

But your clever compationate magic self saw it comming. Went the other way on the tree of life.
 
  
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