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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

RIP Ingmar Bergman & Michelangelo Antonioni

06:20 / 01.08.07

In the past two days Ingmar Bergman and Michelangelo Antonioni have both passed away. They were both hugely influential film-makers and will be missed. The saddest thing for me is that I can't see them being replaced any time soon.

anyway, just letting people know.

All Acting Regiment

10:47 / 01.08.07

I know nothing about these two except that I should know more. What are their main films?

11:39 / 01.08.07

well my personal faves

Bergman - Persona, The Silence and The Seventh Seal

Antonioni - L'Avventura, The Passenger and Blow-Up

but almost everything they did is excellent.

14:44 / 01.08.07

Anyone else thinks the Iron Man thread might've had something to do with it?

23:13 / 01.08.07

either that or the transformers thread.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

23:32 / 01.08.07

I would have paid a lot of money to see a Bergman Transformers.

OPTIMUS PRIME
(rusting, quietly)
I have transformed much. In my time. I have seen many transformations.

BUMBLEBEE
Yes. You transformed often, Optimus Prime. There were many transformations. You would transform into a truck, and back again. Time and again. It was a joy of my childhood, seeing you transform. But you do not transform now. Not the way you used to transform.

OPTIMUS PRIME
I was happy, transforming. I was a Transformer.

The Autobots sit. The sun sets. They sit under a large oak tree, but actually sort of towering over the oak tree because they are so massive, but the intention of their sitting is to sit under the oak tree, and so they are.

BUMBLEBEE
I transformed as well, Optimus. I tried so hard to transform. I wanted you to be proud of me. But you never said you were proud.

OPTIMUS PRIME
It is not for the leader to say some things. Sometimes. Sometimes one just transforms. And transforms again.

BUMBLEBEE
Yes. Sometimes it is for one to transform. And transform again.

Megatron enters, kicking dirt.

MEGATRON
What does it mean? All this transforming? Nothing! NOTHING! We all die alone.

Megatron runs away, weeping.

OPTIMUS PRIME
Transforming was hard for Megatron. He did not transform so often or so well as us.

BUMBLEBEE
I was often sad for him, even though he was cruel. He wanted so badly to transform beautifully. But his transformations were always so ugly.

Optimus Prime and Bumblebee accidentally crush the oak tree but behave as though they are sitting underneath it. Above them, the stars become visible. Neither transform, enjoying the night.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:18 / 02.08.07

Upon which film by Bergman were you basing that, Matt?

07:11 / 02.08.07

I thin it's a direct transcript - with the names changed, obv. - of the Go-Bots script Bergman was fighting to bring to the screen before he died.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:55 / 02.08.07

You see, this is why I'm interested. Of the people who posted to this thread so far, only Alex Gein/de Selby has actually copped to having seen any of his films. Which makes me think of how Bergman's style, or representations of it, has been disseminated, by Woody Allen, by Bill and Ted - so that one can have a stab at pastiching Bergman even if you haven't actually seen much Bergman (although you'll miss the riotous knockabout comedy aspect). I don't think you can say the same of Anonioni, though... or am I wrong? I mean, Wim Wenders did a lot of Antonioni pastiche, but then Antonioni was helping him to do that, so it's a bit different...

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

09:15 / 02.08.07

Sorry -- that was kind of a broad Wild Strawberries thing with a bit of Seventh Seal flavour thrown in. I was also a touch jacked up on duty-free scotch when I wrote it.

I am a Bergman fan, but never really got Antonioni. In the Bergman vein, I own and love Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries and Winter Light, and love Fanny and Alexander.

Antonioni, though, I never really got. I watched Blowup after hearing no end of great things about it, and -- too much build-up? Not the right frame of mind? -- I don't know why exactly, but it didn't resonate with me at all. Zabriskie Point was the same.

I like Bergman because his films feel like there's contemplation behind them, and built into them. No (or little) flash, slow fluid camerawork, glacial pacing. Everything feels so deliberate and sure; some Kurosawa has the same "feel" to me.

Antonioni, from the little I've seen, is more about the artistic wow!!! and that doesn't hit me in the right place.

Side note: In North America, at least, I think Bergman defined the stereotypical "foreign film" used for cheap comic effect in everything from Seinfeld to Woody Allen movies -- dense, subtitled, black and white.

I think that's why Bergman is easier to pastiche, as Haus mentioned above -- the soulful contemplation in black and white is easy to grasp and lampoon, and it's already semi-saturated the public consciousness. I suspect 90% of Bergman riffs are based on the Seventh Seal (that's definitely the most-parodied Bergman reference, anyway), but what do you parody or lift from Blow-Up? HEY WOW IT'S MIMES! maybe, but there's not really an iconic image or style that grabbed the public consciousness the way Bergman's laconic, spare filmmaking did.

11:34 / 02.08.07

Which makes me think of how Bergman's style, or representations of it, has been disseminated, by Woody Allen, by Bill and Ted - so that one can have a stab at pastiching Bergman even if you haven't actually seen much Bergman (although you'll miss the riotous knockabout comedy aspect).

Do you think that this is still the case? Woody Allen's most obvious Bergman references are in less popular films he made in the 70's (Interiors, Banana's and Love and Death) that don't get much attention now. Would someone who's seen Bill and Teds will be able to connect the pisstake to The Seventh Seal without having seen it before?

I like Bergman because his films feel like there's contemplation behind them, and built into them. No (or little) flash, slow fluid camerawork, glacial pacing. Everything feels so deliberate and sure; some Kurosawa has the same "feel" to me.

Its funny you should say that, cos I get the same feeling from Antonioni. Have you seen The Passenger? I think its his most accessible film and has some really nice cinematography. Jack Nicholson isn't half bad in it either. I haven't seen Zabriskie Point, but I've heard its quite ordinary.

Antonioni, from the little I've seen, is more about the artistic wow!!! and that doesn't hit me in the right place.

I don't quite understand what you mean by "artistic wow!!!". Could you elaborate?

23:47 / 09.08.07

I can't really speak to Antonioni (until netflix solves that for me), but I've watched quite a bit of Bergman films in the last two years and they've stayed with me quite a bit.

I've always liked Bergman's stuff since it's character-driven, solemn and affecting. Whether it's looking into an older man coming to the realization that his life has been devoid of meaning in many ways (Wild Strawberries) or the difficulties, feelings and connections between two people over the years (Scenes from A Marriage), it all seems very natural, unforced and human.

I agree with the similarities pointed out between some of Bergman and Kurosawa's work. Ikiru and Wild Strawberries cover some very similar ground.

I liked Bergman's approach since you could tell that his process was never influenced by outside demands. He would let a story concoct itself over a time within his head and then commit to it when he was ready to realize it in film. I have a lot of respect for that.

I would recommend the two films I mentioned above as well as Through a Glass Darkly and Persona (as others have mentioned). It's all gloomy stuff for the most part (something he freely admitted in retrospect), but it's certainly worth giving some time to.

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

13:38 / 10.08.07

I'm also holding off on more comment about Antonioni until I can see more -- it's been a long time, so what I remember of Blowup might be more razzle-dazzle than the film actually is. I definitely came away with a more psychedelic vibe than I get from Bergman, which is there the "wow" comment came from.

06:55 / 12.08.07

i watched 'blowup' again this week - on turner classic channel! - and was astounded at how beautiful it was, and how silent! there are long passages with just the wind for soundtrack. a fantastic exercise in style, a great film.