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Heathers (probably will contain spoilers)

 
 
TeN
06:20 / 18.07.07
so who else here has seen Heathers?
I just finished watching it, and I'm kind of torn on how I feel about it
it's mostly the end that bugs me
not only are there way too many twists and turns, but it really doesn't give a clear message
when all is said and done, I don't know what this movie was trying to say
 
 
Ron Stoppable
08:35 / 18.07.07
I always figured it was a sincere and largely successful (if not exactly trailblazing) attempt at running through the usual themes; difference, othering and hegemony in American society as typified by the High School dynamic.

What is a little different about it, I think, is that it's quite David Lynchy in look and feel. This is a bit hard to unpack; it's something about the primary colours, the very slightly exaggerated weirdnesses - I love the funeral for the falsley outed date-raping football quarterback; "Mah dead gay son!"

I know what it isn't, though. It isn't Pump Up The Volume
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
08:35 / 18.07.07
More substance in first posts, zir! More substance!

What did you consider "too" twisty about Heathers? And which messages DID you get, and how did they conflict?

Never found Heathers all that "twisty," myself. It was a pretty straightforward satire of high school life in the '80s. Summarized, with spoiler tags because the movie is WELL WORTH WATCHING (at least as an artifact), and I recommend that anyone who hasn't seen it does so post-haste:

[+] [-] Spoiler

As far as messages go, Heathers was a pretty blunt instrument, but it came around in much less ironic times. It was -- to my knowledge -- the first really dark, nasty American movie about high school. Ferris Bueller's twisted little brother. (England had "If..." about 20 years beforehand, but it was rather different). I don't know if the movie had anything profound to say -- it was just a broad sharp swipe at the high-school clique system and how it reinforces social roles, and how complicit most kids are in accepting that system and adopting its values without questioning them.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
09:46 / 18.07.07
It was -- to my knowledge -- the first really dark, nasty American movie about high school. Ferris Bueller's twisted little brother.

This point's really well taken. Aside from elements of Carrie and others, which aren't about High School per se, except as metaphor, Heathers gets extra points by being among the first to lay down a template that's become a genre in its own right.
 
 
A fall of geckos
11:10 / 18.07.07
Interesting to see that you identified the ending as being the part of the film that bugs you. The ending of the original script was different and was changed as it was considered too dark.

Details of the original ending can be seen half way down the page here.

In a lot of ways I think this would have worked better and been more consistant with the tone of the film, but I can understand why they saw it as unremittingly bleak rather then darkly comic.
 
 
Quantum
13:40 / 18.07.07
Heathers is fantastic. What's not to love?
 
 
TeN
15:50 / 18.07.07
"it's quite David Lynchy in look and feel. This is a bit hard to unpack; it's something about the primary colours, the very slightly exaggerated weirdnesses"
yeah, I made that connection as well
but I'm not sure it's an entirely accurate one... the style is pretty much pulled straight out of every other 80s teen movie... the whole thing looks like it could segway into The Breakfast Club at any moment without needing to change film stock
it's hard to tell whether that's a parody, or whether Heathers is just attempting to work within the confines of the teen movie
I think it's a little of both

"I know what it isn't, though. It isn't Pump Up The Volume"
I kept making that connection while watching it
in a way, Slaters character in Pump Up The Volume is the polar opposite of his character in Heathers - in both films he's a suave new kid who's pissed at his family because he gets moved around a lot, and winds up bringing a massive change to the school that includes a wave of teen suicides. in the former, however, he's the good guy, and in the latter, he's a dick. (oh yeah, and Pump Up The Volume has way better music haha)

"What did you consider "too" twisty about Heathers?"
I guess it starts when JD tries to kill Veronica, and reveals the real intent of the petition (twist 1), then Veronica attempts to stop him but gets kneed in the face (oh no! will the school blow up?! dun dun dun! twist 2), then she shoots JD and he winds up stopping the bomb by accident (twist 3), then she walks outside only to find JD isn't really dead (twist 4), and not only that but he has another bomb strapped to his chest (twist 5), and then after JD goes all kamikaze she goes back inside, steals the red bow from Heather, and asks Martha Dunnstock to hang out on prom night (twist 6).
I guess some of those are less twists than they are just suprising revelations or unexpected events, but still, it bothered me.

"which messages DID you get, and how did they conflict?"
well, whether JD was justified or not
common sense would indicate that he wasn't, but until Veronica breaks up with him, the film is designed to make you sympathize with him... I mean, he's funny, cool, kills assholes, what's not to love?
and at the end, Veronica does the thing she should have done fifteen minutes into the film. it's as if the entire movie really wasn't necessary at all (not to mention that its far too simple... why does her stealing the ribbon automatically give her power?)

I guess I thought the ending just wasn't as focused as I'd have liked it to be
the rest of the film had some really fantastic, pointed satire, but the end just got sloppy

"The ending of the original script was different and was changed as it was considered too dark."
I was reading about that last night. although I think I like that ending more, I'm not sure it would clarify anything. it might make it even more of a mess. I mean why would Heather strap the bomb to her chest? I guess the idea of her sacrificing her self is a nice one, but she's just going to wind up being yet another Westerburg suicide.
I like the idea of the prom in heaven though. I think it would work better though if it was JD's heaven, not Heather's - kind of like the end of Taxi Driver (even though I know that's not supposed to be a dream)
I also actually really like the ending the writers had joked about, with after Veronica asks her to hang out, Martha pulls out a gun, shoots her in the face, and shouts "Fuck you! Fuck you, Heather!" to which a dying Veronica responds "My name's not Heather!"
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:50 / 18.07.07
Heathers is one of my all-time favourite films. I tend to mentally file it away alongside River's Edge for some reason.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:44 / 18.07.07
until Veronica breaks up with him, the film is designed to make you sympathize with him... I mean, he's funny, cool, kills assholes, what's not to love?

Sometimes I'm reminded of how much media has changed since I was in high school -- at the time, pretty much any mass murderer was the de facto villain of the piece, even if he wore a cool coat and talked kinda like Jack Nicholson.

Heathers at least partially depends on the premise that viewers will realize JD is wrong before he breaks up with Veronica. Maybe it's more confusing if you see it for the first time now, with sociopathic mass murderers being pretty much de rigeur in this post-Image, post-Die-Hard media environment.

Here's a question: has Columbine ruined Heathers?
 
 
HCE
21:06 / 18.07.07
I tend to mentally file it away alongside River's Edge for some reason.

I have Raising Arizona and Repo Man in the same file.

I think the only thing I disliked about Heathers was the revelation that Christian Slater has four chest hairs. I didn't think it really had any messages, which was refreshing. It seemed to delight in having a lot of style and not needing to make any grand statements about anything. "Cliques are bad" is not exactly news to anyone, even teenagers.
 
 
This Sunday
21:38 / 18.07.07
I think, if anything Columbine and similar events have just made Heathers more necessary/good. I know popular opinion has it that indulging in fictions encourages one to act them out, but no, I think sitting down and watching Heathers or, I dunno, Battle Royale, If, or Teaching Mrs. Tingle - reading Kill Your Boyfriend, listening to classic Alice Cooper - actually helps prevent more real-life violent outbursts and attacks than it could ever hope to inspire or encourage. In different ways than Ferris Beuler or To Sir, With Love, or John Hughes things (which may just cause rage, especially that Breakfast Club movie) might.

I do think I would have had a harder time with Ryder's character coming 'round to realizing her boyfriend is wrong, nuts, and dangerous, except that Winona Ryder always has this slowly-developing 'Oh... I just don't know...' feeling to her, on film or otherwise. You can feel the ambient doubt and coming reversal before it's even over the horizon and in eyeshot.
 
 
grant
15:54 / 19.07.07
Ferris Bueller is a John Hughes movie.

I saw a few of them recently, actually, and was surprised at how dark they were. Uncle Buck, for instance, is not a wacky, cuddly movie - it's about neglect and struggle and psychological scars. How did these things get made?
 
 
This Sunday
16:36 / 19.07.07
Ferris Bueller is a John Hughes movie. has collapsed the grand architecture of my John Hughes model. Now I'll have to reevaluate all those others. And, yeah, they all have their dark, terminally fucked up moments, including Uncle Buck and even Dutch and . Heck, there's something terminally fucked up about any situation Hughes was involved with as writer. but he somehow seems to moralize out of them in ways that just don't sit right with me (make-overs and revelations in The Breakfast Club; abandonment and redemption in Home Alone), whereas, Heathers, rewritten as it is, moves along in a way that the progress, the make better, doesn't irritate me or strike me as entirely wrongheaded.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
10:40 / 20.07.07
And I think this is what makes Heathers different - something I struggled to express upthread. Hughes movies, and let's take the Breakfast Club as an example, do have a lot in common with Heathers, obviously; High School cliques and that but Heathers is determinedly pessimistic about how the resolution will play out, in either ending (and I'm fascinated by the alternative, unused ending.) Hughes movies move with just as much purpose towards a state of optimism, or at the least, growth. Hard-won and compromised as it my be.

And this is where I think the 'High School Society' template is actually really unhelpful in a contemporary viewing of Heathers because since then almost all High School dramas have inevitably been Coming Of Age stories and I'm not at all convinced that that's what Heathers is. Particularly as most of the principal cast don't live to graduate.

Oh and I'll see your Uncle Buck and raise you Planes, Trains and Automobiles. There's a moment in that that breaks the fucking heart.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
10:41 / 20.07.07
that last to Grant...
 
 
Triplets
10:47 / 20.07.07
Oh and I'll see your Uncle Buck and raise you Planes, Trains and Automobiles. There's a moment in that that breaks the fucking heart.

The bit where Steve basically dumps John? That still chokes me up, even now.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
10:55 / 20.07.07
That's the one. God bless John Candy, eh?
 
 
GogMickGog
11:27 / 20.07.07
Well, Uncle Buck does rather hammer at the acceptable boundaries of Candy's 'lovable slob shtick', what with drill-enhanced breaking and entering, abduction and that 'get a rat to chew that thing off your face' exchange.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
12:49 / 20.07.07
Heh - I dunno, just thinking of those examples made me chuckle. 'John Candy: The Man, The Legend' is possibly a topic for another thread but when he makes the decision that a bit more drill-wielding, golf club-swinging parenting is just what the elder daughter needs and by acting with a purpose reclaims some of his self-respect - that's a real highlight for me.
 
 
Ron Stoppable
12:54 / 20.07.07
Not that I'm pitching for Uncle Buck as the greatest example of, well, anything, you understand...
 
 
TeN
01:17 / 21.07.07
I definitely dig this discussion, but it's kind of thread rot, no?
if there's not already a John Hughes thread, someone should start one, pronto
 
 
HCE
20:51 / 21.07.07
And this is where I think the 'High School Society' template is actually really unhelpful in a contemporary viewing of Heathers because since then almost all High School dramas have inevitably been Coming Of Age stories and I'm not at all convinced that that's what Heathers is

I agree. One of the elements of the film's wonderful weirdness is the way that life in and around school seems so complete in itself, with relatively little connection to a time afterward. There are a few jokey references to it, but it seems in many ways to be in a suspended time. Brazil is another film that comes to mind that shows a similarly credible self-contained reality.
 
  
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