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Music Making Hardware and Software

 
 
Ignacio
14:07 / 17.07.07
Hello. I’ve never had a computer in my life, and at the moment I am planning to buy my first computer as a part of my simple home recording studio. I know a bit about programs, and have a vague idea of what music software I need, but I am completely ignorant as for what kind of hardware is more recommendable. The other day someone told me that computers need sound cards if you want to make music with them. That was helpful. Thanks to a very annoying myspace advert I also discovered that Mac and PC are not completely compatible systems. That also was helpful but less than the previous one. Still I need a bit more than that to record my album.
So this is what I need:
-A music making-only computer that is capable of running complex programs like Reason or Cakewalk with reasonable speed.
-I will record mostly on my own so I don’t need the capability to record more than 2 tracks simultaneously. But I will do large amounts of processing and multi-tracking.

So:

What do I need? Do I need a mixer as well? I also need a mic, and have been told that the average shure mic is not good enough for studio recording, and that I will need to go for a Condensor Studio Mic.

Any suggestions? My budget is around £1200

If you help me, I promise to send to you a copy of my album once I’ve finished it, but you have to promise me that you will be alive for a while.
 
 
grant
15:41 / 17.07.07
There are so many choices on this, it's completely nuts - you can easily get 50 contradictory answers and have all of them be correct.

I sigh with desire, though, looking at this thing featured in a recent TapeOp magazine gear review -- it's a new palmtop computer with a (I may get the brand wrong) Digidesign Mini input box. The box comes with a lean version of ProTools and costs under $350. The whole rig - slim headphones, box, palmtop - was smaller than two CD cases side by side. And it has about as much storage and RAM as my Powerbook.

Anyway, I'd say mixer + mike is more important than what you're recording on. Or at least mic + pre-amp (however that's accomplished). You can get a decent mic that's a dynamic one and you can probably even get a messed up condenser mic, or mess it up yourself - they need power to work, and can be burned out or dropped badly like any other electronic component, as opposed to dynamic mics, which can put up with more abuse.

The SM-57 is the industry standard. I use an SM-7, which I like a lot - it's an old radio mic, so good for a certain kind of vocal, although I think pros tend to use 'em for bass cabinets. Something like either of those would probably be perfect to start with.
 
 
Feverfew
16:07 / 17.07.07
This thread in Creation may also be of use.

grant, do you have any more detail on this sub-350 box of tricks? I'm wicked intrigued.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
18:47 / 17.07.07
You should look for the free trial version of a program called Reactor - it's loads of synthesisers that live on your computer, and you can play it with your regular computer keyboard or a special midi keyboard. Well worth a try - very organic and thousands of options for making and using sounds.
 
 
grant
19:17 / 17.07.07
More detail -- I'd have to look it up.

It was a Sony Zoom computer, I think. No, that's wrong.

Lemme see...

I think this is the Digidesign thing, but it has no price next to it since Amazon seems to have sold out.

Ah -- I'm *nearly* sure this is it - the MBox 2 Mini, $285. Comes with ProTools LE.



The Zoom is a separate item the reviewer was using for comparison - I can't remember what palmtop he was using, but it was a new one.
 
 
Mike Modular
19:24 / 17.07.07
Well, there's a whole world of possibilities here, Ignacio, and keeping things simple and affordable (whilst reliable and good quality) is key, but you need to make sure what you get is right for you. So, there's still a few more details you'll need to tell us:

What kind of music are you planning to make? This may affect your software choice.

What do you plan to record with the mic? Vocals, instruments or other...? Again, it's a case of the right tool for the job.

Do you already have decent monitor speakers, headphones and a MIDI keyboard?

Like grant says, a mic pre-amp of some sort is required, but you could certainly go without a mixer and just use the inputs of whatever sound-card you choose.

Anyway, here are a couple of examples of the sort of set-ups you could get for your money:

MacBook - £699
Logic Express - £175
Edirol FA-66 Firewire Audio Interface - £189
Rode NT1A Mic - £120
Mic Stand - £30
Pop Shield - £25
=£1238
(+ Cables...)

Mac Mini - £399 (Monitor, keyboard and mouse not included..)
Digidesign M-Box 2 Mini - USB Interface (includes Pro Tools LE software) - £209
Rode NT2000 Mic - £269
Mic stand, pop shield - £55
=£932 So, maybe a mixer or some more software too...?

Shopping for other people is fun...
 
 
grant
20:10 / 17.07.07
I should clarify - the reviewer was discussing his whole rig, which included the box AND a more expensive (teeny tiny) computer. He may also have been using an external hard drive, but it wasn't in the picture with the CD cases.
 
 
RichT's boring old name
15:16 / 18.07.07
hey Iggy

Also depends on how portable you'd like the system. You can get more processing power from a desktop machine for a lot less money- however they're often noisier so you don't want the computer box in the same room as you're recording.

At the moment it's also advisable not to get a machine running windows vista as many drivers for audio interfaces etc are still in development. And vista is rather big and slow.

As for audio hardware, you do need to decide which software you'd like to be running first. Logic will only work on macs. If you get a digidesign interface (e.g. mbox above) it will only work with protools. If you want to use Linux the inteface needs to be supported by alsa: www.alsa-project.org

Pretty much any computer will do the job, although fast hard drives and plenty of RAM are more important than out and out processor speed. Things like how much noise it makes and build quality are often more important than the chips inside, although it's often a good idea to go with intel based hardware as they also make things like the USB bus meaning there's less chance of there being confilcts with the sound card.

There are a few of companies who make 'out of the box' audio PCs- carillon and red submarine, for example which come with software+hardware and set up to work with a particular system. However they're not very cheap.

Microphones are the most important part of the recording process. Although dynamic mics can have some use when you don't want higher frequencies there, or want certain emphasis, condensers are far more accurate. They also require 'phantom power' (on most mic preamps, but do check). The microphone you want depends on what you want to record but Rode and SE electronics mics are both good bets in that kind of price range. A company I've heard some very good things about is Line Audio (possibly 1 guy in Sweden), although I haven't actually used any of it so I don't know yet.

As for interfaces the mackie Satellite looks like it does what you want (has 2 decent preamps + a/d conversion) and is stupid cheap now (under £150), althgouh there may be a reason the price has dropped from £400 in the last 6 months or so (driver problems?). It also doesn't have any digital I/O if you need to hook up CD players or other digital devices or MIDI (although you could get a separate MIDI interface if you need that)

Decent headphones/monitors are a must- industry standard cans are pretty much Sennheiser HD25 and Beyer DT100 both can be got for about £60-£80

Another couple of things to consider: Where you record is also very important. If you're multitracking you want to get rid of most of the sound of the room with acoustic treatment, duvets etc will probably do.

Finally control surfaces can be very useful whilst mixing, knobs/ faders are a lot more immediate than a keyboard and mouse.

For loads more opinions etc see forums at places like
SoundOnSound
 
 
Ignacio
16:57 / 19.07.07
Hello all. Thank you very much for the advice that you have kindly given to me. My friend Seth recommended me to join Barbelith and to seek for advice here and he was very right. As I said before, I rather sound like an idiot but be honest with my lack of knowledge rather than keep my questions and therefore get the wrong advice. Ok I might have not said that before.

Mike: Thanks for your advice and the set-up options. I will now try to answer your questions as accurately as I can. The kind of music that I want to record is a very flexible approach to semi electronic pop music, with equal amount of very rhythmic-dynamic textures as well as loose, static, long, almost non-song, parts: somewhere in between Depeche Mode, Morton Feldman, Eno, Jarre, late 70s Bowie (or Outside’s Bowie), Arthur Russell, Maqam performance, Raga improvisation, Supertramp, etc
.
I mentioned DM first cause they are my favourite band, though I don’t plan to sound like them at all, but will use some of their methods: songs originally written with a standard acoustic instrument that are completely reshaped by electro-acoustic arranging and studio re-composing. Though I would still like to be able to record a completely acoustic piece.

Mic: it is extremely vital that I can pick up vocals in a variety of ways: from whispering to shouting, breath sounds to throat cleaning with a maximum or accuracy. I also want to be able to process and modify the recorded track as much as possible, though the most important thing remains to pick up my natural singing voice and get a full, rich sound, as that will help my singing a lot. Secondarily, and for other projects, it would be good if I could pick up soft wind instruments and plucked instruments, but I’m happy to get another mic for that: the vocals are by far the most important.

Regarding your suggested set:

Is Mac, for this purpose, more recommendable than PC?
I have read the word “interface” many times and for seemingly different things. Would it be possible for you to briefly explain to me what an Edirol FA-66 Firewire Audio Interface is?
I’m afraid that I don’t know what a Pop Shield is, apart from a potentially amazing title for a pop-singer-superheroe-galaxy peace-keeper Anime character.

I have been recommended to use Reason, but the annoying thing about it is that apparently you can’t import external tracks, like you can’t record a vocal or guitar part on the top of what you did with Reason’s sound laboratory.
If what RichT (hey Rich) said is irrefutable, and it is necessary to know in advance what kind of software I will need before I consider what kind of hardware is appropriate, then it might be advisable to extend the topic to that arena.

Thanks again

Ig
 
 
grant
18:23 / 19.07.07
A "pop shield" is a mechanical device also called a "spit guard" by those with a love of the grotesque.

The simplest one I've seen was a bit of nylon stocking stretched over a circular piece of clothes hanger wire.

It's just something you use to prevent the sounds that linguists call "explosives" - p's, b's, to a lesser degree t's, ch's - from making really loud pops on the audio track. Has to do with the way these sounds move air out of the mouth and onto the mic diaphragm, just like the way a windy day makes it sound like the mic is tumbling down concrete stairs.
 
 
kanaris
08:28 / 20.07.07
Hi Ig.

regarding the mac/pc question - macs generally are better at handling audio, as their internal routing is a lot better than a pc. however, with the right pc (eg a carillon etc) the difference becomes slight. I'm a mac user, and love using them, but it's as much a matter of personal preference as anything else. my advice is to go with what you are comfortable with.

What any "audio interface" does is allow you to get audio (in your case vocals) into your computer without losing sound quality. It normally plugs into the usb / firewire port on your computer, and if you are recording vocals, is required equipment.

RE: reason. I love reason, especially for drum programming, but the lack of external inputs can be a drag. However, propellorheads (the company that developed reason) have developed a piece of software called rewire, that allows you to internally route audio from reason into most other common audio applications. I'd personally recommend a combination of reason and cubase (which is great for all the regular studio tasks (ie recording and arranging))

hope this helps!
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
09:47 / 20.07.07
I'm a firm believer in "GIGO" -- garbage in, garbage out. The best computer and software in the world isn't going to help you if you don't have a good mic, good cables, a good phantom power supply (depending on the mic) and a good recording environment. If you're going to be using a computer, set some money aside for quality cable so you can run a line to another room in your house that you can actually set a proper mic up in, with a bit of sound baffling (nothing fancy, even just egg cartons in a corner of the room).

The good news is, any off-the-shelf computer system is going to give you about ten thousand times the recording "power" that Depeche Mode had at the start of their career.

But skimping on anything that involves actual input -- mic, cable, good recording environment -- and hoping you can recover or mask using the magic of computers isn't a healthy way to go about things. The Cowboy Junkies recorded one of my favourite albums of all time around a single (good!) microphone in an empty church, f'rinstance. I know you're not recording acoustic folk-country, but the point is you need to have great baseline material to create great final material.

If you live in a place that does equipment rental, you may want to consider renting a few mics for a few weeks each before making a final decision. Microphones all have their own individual personalities, and while there are some pretty sure bets, finding the right mic for you can be tricky.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:32 / 21.07.07
Thanks to Mike Modular for pointing out the Eidorol FA-66- I'll be getting one of those as soon as I can.

Okay I've been engaged in a musical project best described as Girl Talk meets Sunn0))) and I've hit a snag- samples. The music I want to make is based heavily in samples from popular music, particularly mainstream hip-hop and r'n'b (so far there's bits from Sean Kingston, Rihanna, Jay-z...) the trouble is finding, say, the synth parts from 'Umberella' or the vocals for HelloGoodbye's 'Here (In your arms)' is proving to be next to impossible. There are a few sites specializing in acapellas and samples, but few have a great selection and there will always be something (the elusive Hellogoodbye samples fr'instance) that will permanently elude me. Trying to extract individual elements from songs using audio software (Adobe's Audition) is hit and miss, depending entirely on how the original song was recorded. And yet Girl Talk, Diplo and other mashup artists make it look so easy, using software (like Abelton Live, my weapon of choice) no different from my own. What is it I'm not doing here?
 
 
Seth
23:13 / 21.07.07
Iggy: as mentioned, if I can wire my DVD player audio through my Bose ghetto blaster then you're welcome to my old project studio leftovers. This includes a little Mackie mixer (with phantom power and sweepable mid frequencies), SM57 and 58, some drum mics, Yamaha NS10 studio monitors (industry standard), extra speakers, a powerful amp, Zoom digital multi-effects (crappy but fun), minidisc recorders and leads. Call it a semi-permanent loan, I can't see myself needing it back for bloody ages.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 21.07.07
Essentially it's all the stuff you and I used when we were going mad with drills, pots filled with water and high gain distorted whispering.
 
 
Seth
23:17 / 21.07.07
Phex, your project sounds ace. Anything up online?
 
 
rizla mission
14:48 / 22.07.07
As far as recording straightforward instruments / vocals stuff goes, I think Matt Shepherd speaks the truth above: as long as you've got half-decent mic > half-decent mixer/preamp > computer, you shouldn't really have much need of fancy software unless you're aiming at some sound-of-a-pin-drop pro-audio wankfest or making an insane multi-layered symphony or something.

As such, I use Garageband (bundled free with all Macs) for everything. In fact, I love Garageband! It's like the 21st century equivalent of a four-track: it's got everything you need and nothing you don't and is easy as falling off a log.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:02 / 22.07.07
Phex, your project sounds ace. Anything up online?

There is now: These are four half-to-mostly finished tracks from the last month or so. The first two are pretty much done, the last two need a little work. All of them need more damn samples for that 'the last six seconds of pop culture mulched up and spat at you' kinda vibe.

Jet Alone - Rachel Bilson
Jet Alone - Sasha Grey (feat. Rihanna)
Jet Alone - Hayden Panetierre
Jet Alone - Jessica Alba (feat. Sean Kingston)
 
 
Seth
00:31 / 23.07.07
Dude, I don't have proper net access right now, hope to be able to listen soon.

However...

Just for calling yourself 'Jet Alone...' do you realise how much I want to have sex with you right now?
 
 
_pin
10:24 / 23.07.07
No! I want the studio left overs! Esp. the mixing board! But I can't justify having them! But still!
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
18:08 / 23.07.07
Phex, I love what you're doing there.

EDIT: Also -- are you familiar with John Oswald's Plunderphonics projects? I picked up Plexure back in ... '94? and it melted my brain.

Last time I checked, Oswald was a U of T prof and reasonably approachable. If you e-mailed him about the copyright stuff, he might have some useful information/insights. Can't hurt to try, noways.
 
 
RichT's boring old name
13:16 / 25.07.07
Come to think of it, haven't you still got that soundcraft folio mixer Iggy? (and does it work). That's as good as any of the little mackie desks/preamps.

I'm also putting in an order at Thomann in the next few days if you want to save a few quid on postage for anything.

Also don't forget to budget for cables- good ones can be pricey, and once you start buying a few the cost mounts up. (As I learn here, spending £60 on 'odds and ends')
 
 
grant
18:49 / 26.07.07
Why are "good" cables important?

What's so good about them anyway?
 
 
rizla mission
07:59 / 27.07.07
That's a question which intrigues me also.
 
 
Mike Modular
08:32 / 27.07.07
Well, a 'good' cable might be one that is durable, securely terminated, and preferably balanced... But, no, you probably don't need to worry too much about how 'pro' your cables are in the home, just as long as they're, you know, not some completely flimsy ultra-cheap rubbish that makes everything buzz you'll be fine.

Making up your own cables is cheaper than buying them off the shelf, but it is very boring and time consuming...
 
 
RichT's boring old name
10:21 / 27.07.07
as far as cables etc go: as Mike said, pretty much- I can't tell the difference between 99.9999% and 99.9999999% oxygen free cable. Chunky Neutrik etc connectors on the other hand are what makes the difference between the thing lasting 6 months or 6 years though. ditto stands etc, it's false economy if they're going to break after using them a few times. I've got XLRs coming out my ears at the moment if you need a few.

As for balanced connections, it's whether the equipment can use them or not, although balanced cable is pretty much mandatory over long runs. Most consumer grade stuff is unbalanced, so using balanced cable won't offer any advantages unless you can unbalance the signal on the other end with a DI box or similar
 
 
RichT's boring old name
09:55 / 28.07.07
Speaking of good cables: These are. And much cheaper than buying the individual parts.
 
 
Ignacio
15:14 / 31.07.07
Hi again. Picking up on what Mike posted, plus my own research, I am thinking of getting either the Rode NT 2000, the Studio Project C1 or the NT1A. The NT 2000 is a lot mroe expensive but I'm happy to go for that one if it will really make a difference. Any comments beyond personal taste?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:24 / 04.08.07
I finished a new song this weekend: Tara Reid. Samples come from New Young Pony Club, Ol' Dirty Bastard and Justin Timberlake (there was some Smiths in there that didn't quite work).
Also, I've discovered some sites which may be helpful to those of you who incorporate samples into your music:

Lazyrecords, which has an assload of acapellas, instrumentals and a smattering of samples. They have an innovative (or annoying) way of ensuring people can't just log-in, tie-up the site by downloading every sample and leave. Because it's forum based the search function can be a little tricky.

Freesound is a massive library of samples. If you can't make it yourself you can find it here.

Acapellas4U may be awesome, may be suck, I'll find out after then ten day trial period ends. That'll also be the day I finally get my hands on an acapella of Christina Aguilera's Make Over. Then your planet is doomed.
 
 
ronfinch
19:11 / 04.08.07
Hi I work in recording studios (engineer) for a living. Most of the advice on here seems good to be honest.
Software - If you are planning on recording audio and programming stuff logic audio is common in the pro world. Protools is used primarily to record audio. Nowadays lots of people use ProTools then rewire reason into it. I still dont think you can record audio into reason. So 2 options there if you use a mac 1. logic pro/express/garage band to do everything 2. ProTools + Reason
The software you use will have a huge impact on your workflow so really whatever works for you is what you should use - I am just letting you know what is common in my world...!

I assume someone told you what an audio interface is - (if not here is a description) - the audio interface is basically your soundcard, but instead of attaching it to your computer via a pci/pci-e (or pci-x or whatever) slot, you attach it to a firewire port... They obviously come at different price points, with different specs... They will have an alalogue to digital/digital to analogue converter (you probably know this changes the 'soundwaves' that hit the microphone into digital information the computer understands and vice versa - they will have a line level input, many will have mic inputs. Some have headphone sockets for monitoring. There are a lot about - you get what you pay for.
The Rode mics, although I havent used any in a while are good for the price, I think se electronics might be worth having a look at too - also oktavia mics for low cost/entry level kind of mics. You probalby want a condenser mic if you want the detail you mention. I wouldnt worry about a mixing desk too much at this point if you are just multitracking parts you are playing yourself and programming lots of stuff inside your computer. If you are attaching a lot of keyboards/samplers etc then that is a different story...
 
 
ronfinch
19:46 / 04.08.07
Forgot - havent heard many low end monitors (speakers) recently. Have heard mackie hr824's are good for the price, also that krk have some cheap monitors that are good for the price. Easiest to go for powered monitors I think at first. (They have an amp in them).
Speaker positioning/tweaking room acoustics is the next thing but if you are primarily a writer rather than an engineer then primarily worry about the writing.... Have fun!
 
 
grant
16:46 / 02.10.07
James Randi is known for offering money to psychics if they can prove their powers to his satisfaction.

Now, he's doing the same thing with audio cables. Really freakin' expensive audio cables.
 
 
grant
15:36 / 18.10.07
Oh, dear - someone has accepted Randi's challenge.

Will the fancy-assed cables make a noticeable difference??
 
 
grant
20:39 / 16.06.08
Cables vs. wire clothes hangers: I knew it!

Oh, man.

Oh.
 
  
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