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Good Readers, Bad Readers, Authorial Intent, and Subtext in Comic Books

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
12:25 / 12.07.07
Well. With Animal Man and Deemer we are talking about not somebody missing subtext, or even refusing to acknowledge subtext, but rather somebody not actually reading the text, if your account is accurate. That's rather different, and clearly poor reading. In many art forms, not to engage with something that is obviously there in the text would probably disqualify you from being a successful pundit, at least for any length of time.

However, there is a significant difference between refusing to engage with a text and recognising the validity of authorial intent - Tim, you say in the thread, I believe, that authorial intent is only one element to be considered in the analysis of a text, which makes me wonder why it is punched up so high in the title of this thread. When dealing with creators - and this effect is, I think, punched up in the close and often socially unskilled world of comics fandom - it is important not to slip into hagiography or theodicy, which themselves interfere with good reading.

The ancestor of this thread, in some ways, is probably Schizophrenics Can't Process Metaphor, as referenced above, in which Morrison lamented the failure of the comic-reading public to "get" Seaguy, blaming the tendency of schizophrenics not to be able to process metaphor and the failure of people to understand texts from the point of view of Arthurian literature. This _sounds_ clever, but is itself anti-intellectual, depending as it does on admirers not examining too closely the claims made. Regrettably, having an audience made up largely of comic book fans probably helps with that.

Compare the complaint that people did not read enough Arturian literature to understand Seaguy, which was as far as I recall a pretty uncomplicated adventure romp, with Seven Soldiers of Victory. One of the things I found impressive about Seven Soldiers, despite understanding many of the criticisms levelled at its overall coherence, was that it was intimately involved with mythologies both internal and external, but unfamiliarity with those mythologies did not appear seriously to disrupt the pleasure of the text. I didn't know anything very much about most of the heroes being rebooted, I knew something of the New Gods, I knew the Preiddau Annwn. However, I think that if I had not, I would still have got what I needed from the references to Caer Sidi - this is a strange, threatening place with an alien and hostile civilisation, and that to survive its impact on your life you need to be one of a group of seven heroes. You don't need to have read the Preiddau to enjoy that, any more than you need to know what post-modernism is to appreciate the irony of characters in the Iliad discussing how they will be remembered in song.

On the other hand, to read Really and Truly and to come away with the impression that you have had to share a room with the script in order to experience Rian Hughes' art is not the sign of a bad reader, unless I have failed in my reading to appreciate something important about the work.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:18 / 12.07.07
The issue isn't about depth in comic books, I don't think. Seaguy enjoyed some depth beneath its cartoon surface and it wasn't abused on the internet. It just didn't sell. The issue is adding depth, symbolism, themes, references to philosophies and mythologies to superhero comics. Where, it would seem, some have decided such things do not belong. The fans Tim's being attacked by want their playground free of such things. A super-cigar should remain a super-cigar. It's a very John Byrne point of view: superhero comics were without subtext or any self-consciousness and should remain that way. Anyone who tries to change that hates superheroes.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:21 / 12.07.07
When I was a child, I thought as a child and understood as a child; Now I am a man, and put away childish things. Except for superhero comics, which I continue to understand, and about which I continue to think, as a child.
 
 
Spaniel
13:30 / 12.07.07
But oh-so-very seriously. With a face of Po.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:31 / 12.07.07
Superhero comics have always been the same and should always be the same. Superman should fight Lex Luthor this issue and next issue and the issue after ad hominem.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:42 / 12.07.07
Look down. That's your kidneys.
 
 
Spaniel
13:51 / 12.07.07
...And there's Haus, chewing on them.
 
 
Janean Patience
13:54 / 12.07.07
Hey! I ordered those for breakfast! And Boboss has my kedgeree!

Damn feral posters.
 
 
Spaniel
14:15 / 12.07.07
Always steal kedgeree.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:23 / 12.07.07
Okay, so my understanding is that our "bad reader" is somebody who vociferously denies that there are any interpretations of a comic beyond surface interpretations.

It's not the reading that's bad, it's the forcing of their (shallow) interpretations on others who have (deeper?) different interpretations. They aren't in fact just "bad readers" they are "bad readers who deny good readers the opportunity to be good readers."

So what happens when two people have different interpretations of something and they disagree? If I have a well-developed theory that Betty and Veronica is a veiled examination of post-industrial alienation, but Joey has a well-developed theory that Betty and Veronica is in fact a subtle overview of non-Euclidean geometry, and we both insist the other's reading is misguided, are we both "bad readers" or "good readers"? I've done more research into post-industrial alienation and have written a 5,000-word essay on the comic in question, but Joey has a PhD in geometry and has analyzed the entire issue pixel by pixel. And we are both stridently denoucning the others' views. We've both done the work, but we're denying the other person the right to their interpretation. Who gets to be "good"?

It gets harder when we move away from things that are more-or-less obviously metaphorical/mutli-layered on the surface, too.

F'rinstance, what if I believe that a two-page bit in Archie #787 where Hot Dog eats the Jones' Thanksgiving turkey because Arch and Jugs are down at the Chok'lit Shoppe scarfing hamburgers is in fact a stunning commentary on the American internment camps of World War II? The author's intent to tell a short funny story about Hot Dog eating the turkey is obviously irrelevant, and anyone who tries to tell me that no, it's really just a gag about a dog that eats a turkey is "bad", yes?

I think "abrasive anti-intellectual" is an easy target for "bad," especially on these forums. But insisting that any and all critical analysis is automatically "more good" than simple enjoyment, and that any and all attempts to say that something is simple in intent and execution and meant to be enjoyed as such are "bad" ... that starts moving into some murky waters for me.
 
 
alas
14:46 / 12.07.07
MattShepherd, I think your point is that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and that's absolutely right--as a lit teacher, I also regularly have to pull students back from leaping into "symbolic readings" that just don't work. And they don't work often for the same reasons that your argument above doesn't really work for me: it's utterly abstract, not grounded in an actual text. Your examples are clearly hypothetical arguments--there is no Joey and you are not making the B&V argument.

Do academics engage in arcane arguments over, ultimately, probably not very relevant issues? Sure, we make jokes about this all the time (a regular catch-phrase in academe is "because the stakes are so low" which is the punch line to a joke: "Why are academic arguments so fierce and poisonous?"). But while, yeah, there's a grain of truth to that--i.e., that one can lose sight of a larger perspective when engaged in heated debates over details--it's also a joke that's regularly and nastily made by outsiders with an anti-intellectual agenda; people who not only don't really understand the way academic argument works (i.e., in your argument with Joey WHY are you putting his argument down? You don't know, because it's a made up argument: i.e., there ARE NO STAKES in your imaginary argument) but they don't WANT it to work at some level. They WANT there to be no there there.

That is basically never true in a fierce academic debate: something IS at stake, and it is usually, in fact, virtually always something important, real, and vital to our human lives on this planet, even if it's "just about comics." But it's a lot easier for people to trivialize others than to understand them.

And, Alex's Grandma (I've forgotten your new name, sorry)--I agree that, in some ways, these guys are pathetic, and i'd probably say to Tim, with myself: choose your battles, babe. But, on the other hand, if this is the battle he's choosing, I'm not so sure it's an irrelevant one. I believe those guys might benefit in real ways in their lives from stronger, more robust reading skills, and if he thinks he can help make that happen, and help make that forum a little more friendly to people exploring complexity (and especially if he'll make it more acceptable to start looking at the sexist, racist, and heteronormative aspects of too many comics), I say more power to him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:51 / 12.07.07
I'm not sure anybody _is_ saying exactly that, though - see my comments about Morrison and Seaguy, above. What alas is saying, I think, is that there is a tendency for a refusal to accept the possible validity of analysis, or indeed of differing viewpoints - if somebody were to say that the Filth was obviously an exposition of vMeme theory in comic form and that anyone who thought it was a story about x was a bad reader, they would probably deserve a slap - is often loaded towards supporting dominant structures.

The Coyote gospel is an interesting one here, because it does various things with the idea of the author and the nature of fiction, but it also hoiks things out of Native American myth structures and narratives, without these lendings being part of, for example, the backstory of a Native-themed character (Super Chief, anyone). I think that it is at least potentially significant that a purely face-value reading, that is, one which refuses to connect the action on the page with broader considerations, would have, for example, Kyle Rayner's girlfriend in a fridge as unrelated narrative action, or the whiteness of the major heroes (Superman, Hal Jordan, Captain America, Doctor Strange) and the blackness of their second string (Steel, John Stewart, The Falcon, Doctor Voodoo) as being, in effect, just something that is.

That is, the denial of context often serves the existing order. There's a very good example of this in my mind, which is unfortunately involving private messages.

On preview - sort of what alas said. On the other hand, before we go too far with our antagonism, it's worth saying that actually many/most of the people involved in the discussion were at least open to having the discussion and largely fairly polite about doing it - a couple of arses don't define a culture - and also that there is no intrinsic likelihood that a more analytical approach to comic books _will_ lead to greater freedom to challenge sexism, racism or heteronormativity; not least because Dweemer's appraich seems already to be identified, with a degree of fondness, as somewhat pathological even by his peers. Sometimes it is elephants all the way down...
 
 
Quantum
15:03 / 12.07.07
I heart alas. (offtopic- an ad hominem is a latin advertising man, right?)
 
 
ginger
02:15 / 13.07.07
tim,

as’s been noted numerous times above, think this ‘bad’ thing’s iffy. i recognise that this’s all come out of an interview when you probably weren’t exactly spending hours checking your draft, so it’s fair enough, but the whole thing brings up an interesting point, especially since it reminded me of a moment in your book, which i read this very morning.

i’m not going to skip across the room and get a page reference, but there’s a footnote where you describe the kupperberg doom patrol as ‘pretty bad, the less said about it the better’ or something similar, before the text goes on to sing the praises of morrison for the next few hundred pages. i’m not going to suggest that kupperberg wasn’t the comics equivalent of cold porridge, but my tired, boozed mind does transpose the whole thing across on to my beloved workplace.

in my faculty, people who i consider to be the academic and literary equivalent of kupperberg spend most of their lives doing what you’re arguing for: reading ‘the waste land’ in terms of meaning and authorial intent, and then writing the poetic equivalent of one of those walk-through guides to DOOM. the rest of us, a tiny minority, ignore all that and run around trying to fuck them up by persuading them that they’re probably missing the point with all this authorial intent bollocks, because we’re really not convinced that such a thing’s necessarily decipherable or even detectable within a text. instead, we try and work out how the text’s read, and how it functions as an object liberated from its author.

admittedly, i’m pretty sure i’m the only one who resorts to telling them that grant morrison’s probably not written a comic in twenty years, because the artists get in the way and scribble all over his pretty writing before it even gets to the printers, but i don’t think they’ve noticed.

my point being: this ‘bad reader’ stuff’s all very well, and i’m sympathetic as far as the e-slagging for trying to be a little cleverer and move things forward goes; but i think that otherwise, you’re on potentially shaky ground. there’re plenty of ways of looking at a text without going near meaning and archaic Romantic ideas.

i appreciate the attempt to drag the level up, so to speak, though there’s also a lot to be said for simple, hedonistic reading of these things on the purest, poppiest level on occasion; i’m interested to know if you’re also trying to drag things sideways, by suggesting that there’s a single ‘good’ way to read. would you dismiss an examination of ‘arkham asylum’ that considered the relationship between painted images and written captions, on the grounds that it didn’t mention tarot cards or batman wanting to diddle his mum?

apologies, drivel as ever.


(no criticism of your book implied, by the way; an explosion of barthes would’ve been a little out of place. the cover’s a little disconcerting; i had to turn it over and leave it face-down on my desk, wee bugger was giving me the eye...)
 
 
TimCallahan
04:21 / 13.07.07
No, I do not believe in a single interpretation of a text, and what I call bad reading, as I've described elsewhere on this thread is the absolute denial to even interpret a text. To dismiss something by saying "I don't get it."

I don't think ANYONE who interprets a text, even if they come up with a misinterpretation (yes, even though I don't believe in absolute meaning, I do believe in misinterpretations that lack any sort of textual evidence), or an incomplete interpretation, is a bad reader. I reserve that word for the cases I have cited in this thread. The complete refusal to even attempt an interpretation.

I'm debating these types of issues with Douglas Wolk right now, in the context of a New Avengers analysis, in a piece we're posting at Sequart.org tomorrow or Saturday, but, early on, I define my "bad reader" criteria, and here's how I begin my first entry:

"Before I get into my reading of New Avengers #32 (which I do, in fact, read regularly, along with almost everything on the comic shop wall), I'll address my grand (and potentially controversial) claims about "bad readers." As a once-upon-a-time Philosophy major (before turning to the MUCH more profitable English academic track), I have a tendency to posit a philosophical stance and see how substantial the counter argument becomes. It's a technique as old as Socrates. Remember the time he debated Euthyphro about whether or not piety should be based on a literal reading of the myths? That was the good old days. Socrates, by the way, was against a literal interpretation, while Euthyphro was in favor of it. Ah, the old metaphorical vs. literal debate, whatever happened to that? Oh, wait, that's what WE'RE doing. (By the way, if Socrates had grown up in the 1980s, like I did, he would have known that the best way to settle this age-old debate is by having a breakdance battle, so what do you say, Douglas?)

If I were to elaborate on my definition of what makes a bad reader, I would say a bad reader meets at least one of the following conditions:

(1) He or she is unable or unwilling to understand the literal meaning of the words or images in a text.
(2) He or she is unable or unwilling to understand the connections between words and images in a text.
(3) He or she is unable or unwilling to recognize figurative language in a text.
(4) He or she is unable or unwilling to recognize irony in a text.

I base these conditions on the way language is acquired and the development of the skill of reading. Children, learning to read more proficiently throughout school, get better at these four conditions of readership as they become more experienced (try using irony with pre-schoolers!), and the same thing is true for second language learners (try listening to a joke told in Spanish if you've never made it past Spanish II in high school--you probably won't "get it.")"

And we go on from there...
 
 
TroyJ15
04:28 / 13.07.07
What do you guys think about the controversy?

Is it totally inappropriate to say someone is a "bad reader"?
Bad Reader? Yeah. Not everyone understands concepts of subtexts and metaphor. I can't tell you how many people I try to get to read New X-Men, and before finishing it, they say it sucks.

It's not a slight on the reader or the writer. Just, sometimes the two will never see eye-to-eye because we are all raised on different concepts of storytelling.

Is recognizing symbolism, metaphor, and subtext an essential part of reading a comic?
That's the stuff that gets me into it, but, even I have to say that sometimes you just want to check your brain at the door. I, defintitely, like Temple of Doom over Raiders because it more fun. Sometimes you have to go with it and not think about it.
It also depends, largely, on the subject. Something that is already established as basic superhero property, is going to tough to sell as literary art to the legions of fans that have come before (hence, my New X-Men problem)

Does it matter what the author intends?
Yeah it does. But I have a strong belief that there comes a line when the author owes it to his fans to deliver on certain things. I use George Lucas as a prime example. You make all this money off of Star Wars fans and then you wait close to 20 years to do a prequel. At that point, you owe it the audience to not create garbage. Your intent is important, but maybe you need to feel the fan response out before you proceed. This is also, damn near, impossible because of the legion of fans.

On a smaller project, it is easier to manuever around fan service.
 
 
This Sunday
05:00 / 13.07.07
Not liking something does not make a 'bad reader' by anybody's standards so far in this thread, though. What makes a bad reader seems to be alternately (or combined, depending on the poster) (a) refusing to accept anyone else's read just out of hat, and/or (b) copping an 'I don't understand it'/'there's nothing to understand' without even trying to grasp a narrative level of the thing (or, in my opinion the worse situation, where they clearly have gleaned at least a narrative reading and still swear up and down they 'didn't get it').

And 'checking your brain at the door' is basically lying to yourself. On some level, it's all getting through. I love two out of three Indiana Jones films, but there's not a moment where I'm not aware how racist they are or that, for example, Ravenwood's presented, essentially, as either tied up or drunk, presumably to keep her from being too much of a threat any of the men, including Junior, there.

If you have to, defiantly - perhaps, xenophobically - lie to yourself for pleasure or to preserve pleasure, that's bad reading and not particularly helpful to the species on the whole.
 
 
ginger
01:04 / 14.07.07
tim, sorry to be a bore, but i have my tiny and ever-shrinking litter-tray and i may as well enjoy it. i’d say there’s a gulf between refusing to interpret a text, and dismissing something by saying ‘i don’t get it’. while i agree that waggling your arse at something because you don’t like it’s a bit daft, though that does rather expose us on the kupperberg front, there’s a mass of intelligent thought lined up on the anti-interpretationalist side. though i’m not a huge fan, susan sontag’s ‘against interpretation’’s a pretty obvious, touchy-feely one, but since you’re taking your authority from socrates...

travelling through the portal into timespace rent by the heroic death of derridaman, and gather a few of his more psychedelic powers in the process, if we could skip lightly to 275e-ish of plato’s ‘pheadrus’, does the whole spoken vs. written word thing not cause a few problems for the authorial-intent-imbedded-in-the-text argument? socrates never writes anything down, believing that the written word’s too open to interpretation, since it’s not attended by its author. you can’t get anything out of the written word without making unfounded assumptions about what the originating force intended them to mean, since you can’t check; ‘[words] stand there as if they are alive, but if anyone asks them anything, they remain solemnly silent.’

interpretation’s fine, so long as you recognise it for what it is: you close down a massive field of potential into a tiny alleyway. you’re effectively rewriting the text by attributing a certain meaning to it, by speculating or asserting that ‘the author meant to say...’. socrates portrays words ‘reaching indiscriminately [to] those with understanding no less than those who have no business with it, [...] it doesn’t know to whom it should speak and to whom it should not’; the text gets mugged, dressed up as a monkey and shagged in the armpit by anyone who wants to through the act of interpretation. it’s great fun, we all do it, we should just be honest that that’s what we’re doing. dirrrrty pleasure. i’m spending tomorrow in a hairshirt made out of the roughest grammatology i can find.

on a tangent, i’m interested in exactly what you mean by your point 4. what constitutes irony in a text? is it any different in a comic? and how does it relate to the author?
 
 
TimCallahan
15:05 / 14.07.07
ginger, I can see why you mentioned the irony point as a potential acknowledgement of authorial intent. After all, since irony is often explained as "expressing the opposite of what was meant," interpreting irony in a text relies on some knowledge of what the author intended to mean.

But I don't think that's necessarily true, since we can never discover what Shakespeare intended to mean (I can't interview him on the subject and neither can you), yet we can still identify irony in his work. We can recognize the irony in Hamlet's words as he mocks Polonius or Claudius. We can recognize the irony in the scene where Hamlet holds back from killing Claudius because he misinterprets Claudius's actions as "prayer." So we can recognize irony because of the context, even without knowing what Shakespeare himself intended. We can guess his intentions, but that's simply an interpretation of the text based on the effect of the words, not based on any outside information from Shakespeare himself.

The same hold true for comics, although, in comics, in addition to the same types of irony listed above, you also have the (occasional) use of narrative captions that directly contradict the images in a panel. Such a technique might be used, for example, to show how a character perceives the event vs. how it "really" happened (within the context of comic book "reality). It would be considered irony, surely.

Someone unable to recognize irony would be confused as to why the words don't match what's shown in the pictures, perhaps leading to the useless "I don't get it" critique. I would say that qualifies them as a bad reader by my definition.
 
 
TimCallahan
17:00 / 14.07.07
Also, the full text of the Douglas Wolk/Timothy Callahan discussion on Bad Readers and Authorial intent is now live on Sequart.org.

Check it out HERE!
 
 
Spaniel
17:17 / 14.07.07
Ginger, I'm trying hard to fathom the worth of your last two posts, mate, but I'm struggling. Basically, as far as I can see you're approaching the kind of relativism that makes me want to scream. I strongly suggest that you reflect on the ideas put forward by Alas: that any argument worth having is an argument which someone is actually invested in, and makes a fucking difference and then come back and explain deconstruction to us thickies.

Or don't.

Ah fuck, I cannot be arsed with this fucking discussion. Maybe I'm just being a drunk pillock, but I'm thinking not.
 
 
ginger
19:26 / 14.07.07
boboss, there’s a great deal invested in this kind of approach, though a lot of people don’t get it. i’m not going to run off the complete history of deconstruction, if you ask me, the whole things springs out of politics, and the attempt to unsettle assumptions that give an unnecessarily easy ride to repressive systems. more pragmatically, if you’ll allow me to deliberately miss your point, there’s been a concerted effort within academic circles to bring study of comics into the mainstream in recent years, and in my humble, it’s important to create an area of research which is sealed off from the more fanish areas of the culture; amputating the celebrity cults that abound in comics circles, and working on a more abstract level seems like a logical approach. not that what tim does isn’t entirely valid; it’s another branch of the discipline. dialogue’s vital, if we’re going to avoid the situation that’s developed in other areas, where the two areas’re completely divorced.

so...

tim, in the interest of boboss’s sanity, i’ll spare you a certain amount of frenchified wankery, and get to the point. on the issue of contradiction between a narrative caption and the visual image it accompanies: what happens to authorial intent when the image is the work of an artist, drawing up a script by a script writer? artists add and omit stuff all the time; surely, if you stand by such things, the process of artistic interpretation introduces a gap in which the original meaning intended by the author just gets swallowed up? when you have more than one person involved in the production process, do you think it’s still legit to talk about the writer as author, given that the final work bears relatively little resemblance to what he actually produces?
 
 
TimCallahan
20:33 / 14.07.07
Ginger, for me that just makes the supposed "authorial intent" all the more invalid. Who exactly is the author in the case of a collaborative work anyway?

Throughout my book, I refer to Grant Morrison as the author of these works, but I think that's as much of a shorthand as anything else. I'm curious as to what he, as the originator, of these stories had in mind, but it doesn't affect my ultimate interpretation.

At my heart, I'm a structuralist, as I hope the book demonstrates (even though it was originally written as a series of weekly essays, and therefore perhaps too closely attentive to the trees instead of the forest).

Deconstruction can be fun, and when I read Derrida, that's what I see it as: a mode of playful rejection. But for me it doesn't lead anywhere fruitful. And if comics crit is a relatively new enterprise, it's certainly not helpful to BEGIN the discussion with Deconstructionism, is it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:25 / 14.07.07
Ah, well, that's interesting, and to a great extent depends on how one sees the progression of literary theory. As a metaphor, one might posit a nation which has not had access to 20th-century medicine, much less 21st. Should one work through the previous century of technological advances methodically, in order to prepare their conceptual horizons for current technology?

Of course, if one sees deconstruction as quackery this does not apply, and I understand America is comparatively tolerant of such an approach. So, there's that.
 
 
ginger
22:19 / 14.07.07
tim, one of the things i found revealing in your book’s the part of the interview with morrison where you talk to him about how much consideration he gives to the manner in which collaboration with artists ‘changes the meaning’ of his work; his response, that he gets ‘the blame for bad storytelling if the art isn’t up to scratch’, is pretty interesting. i think we’re actually much closer on this than i originally thought, though i’d question your use of the word ‘valid’ in your post, and maybe replace it with ‘worthy of consideration’. this is actually what i work on; the nature of authorship in a mullet-authored text; i think this is an example of a way you can read a text without producing an interpretation of its ‘meaning’, in the classic sense, examining its systems of authorship instead. there’s a lot invested in such things: the artists’ right to be identified as authors, the inker’s relative status within the structre of authorship as compared to the penciller, and so on.

( on the off-topic, as for not beginning with deconstruction, i’d echo haus. if we start from scratch, we’ll remain permanently ‘behind’ other disciplines. i’m not advocating the promotion of deconstructionist methodology to the exclusion of any other; in fact, i think the kind of thing you’re doing’s bound to occupy the vast majority of intelligent readers’ time, which is no bad thing, since i happily accept that it’s the most rewarding and attractive method of study. i do think that it’s important to inform such readings with the more abstract side of things, though; having deconstructionist elements in from the beginning’s vital, since it strengthens the study of comics against accusations of frothiness and, potentially, fanboyism. the two approaches compliment each other; study of content can only get so far without abstracted study of the nature of the unique textual systems of comics.

on a side-side-note, i’ve always thought of america as being the one place that’s taken derrida in without being too nasty to him. the french’re really only beginning to come round, the english’re still at war, but the americans where the ones who gave him a job and ran round shouting about how much of a genius he was. same with deleuze, though the english’re nicer to him; the average academic bookshop in england has a deleuze and derrida shelf twice the length of a similar shelf in paris.)
 
 
TimCallahan
22:26 / 14.07.07
I don't think comics theory needs to start at the very beginning of Lit Theory, but I don't see how you move forward from deconstructionism.

We don't have to ignore deconstructionism, but it doesn't lead us anywhere, so why not take it for what it is and then say, "even though we know the theoretical pitfalls, let's assume a text has a meaning. What is that meaning and how do we determine it?"

That's a better starting point than "nothing has meaning, and here's why."
 
 
This Sunday
22:40 / 14.07.07
"[N]othing has meaning, and here's why," isn't really Deconstruction, though, anymore than Deconstruction is necessarily nihilistic.

There's something similar to this concern, I think, in the repressive responses from some readers who fear analyses in any form, in that, the devalorizing of their original or prized read is seen as an erasure of it. I think we can all agree, multiple and varied reads are necessary and acceptable, and I would posit (and suspect several will not agree), that sometimes a deliberate off reading is necessary and beneficial, so long as it is taken to its limits, simply to expose it as a flawwed or impractical interpretation of the work. Certainly, it's the best way to separate ironic, sardonic, and satiric works/elements, that presumptuous incorrect read of taking the thing straight.
 
 
TimCallahan
23:02 / 14.07.07
Good call, DN. I'd agree with those points.
 
 
ginger
23:04 / 14.07.07
tim, decadent nightfall’s got in before me. it’s all a question of what you do with it. i accept that if people spent all their time sitting in the corner, smashing things with a misrepresentation of derrida for no reason other than the love of kicking down other people’s sandcastles, nothing comes of it but instability; however, if you’re doing it as a means to an end, it can be a constructive tool.

sorry to constantly quote you back at yourself, but as you note in your book, superhero comics get little respect, academically; one of the primary reasons for this, when i talk to other academics, isn’t that they prefer ‘maus’ because it’s somehow more serious, but because it’s by a single author, and therefore easier to write about using old-school literary methods. some people get up every morning and shit five articles about single-authored comics before breakfast, but never touch the multi-authored stuff; they can be pretty sure that everything in a speigelman book came out of speigelman, so they can just write without the need to worry about making arses of themselves when the script’s published and it transpires that the mice were actually means to be rats or something. the deconstructionist stuff’s an attempt to dismantle the system, so we can look at how it works. it has immense potential; by getting in with this stuff now, we may be able to avoid the auteurism that bogged down film studies for nigh-on thirty years.

the thing is, some of what you say reads like first-principles post-structuralism. if you follow the classic, straight-down-the-line reading of barthes’s the ‘death of the author’, which i have a few problems with, but still, you end up with a text, containing multiple possible meanings, that the reader draws out. is the author really what matters, here? when you say ‘let's assume a text has a meaning. What is that meaning and how do we determine it?’, aren’t you pretty much ignoring the author in favour of the reader, even if he IS potentially really rather bad at his job?
 
 
TimCallahan
01:04 / 15.07.07
I'm ignoring the author as a being, but I'm not ignoring the author as manifested through the text. Hence, I can say things like, "Morrison raises a metafictional question here...blah blah blah," without thinking about the actual dude who lives in Scotland and what he was thinking about when he was writing the stuff that was potentially edited and adapted by collaborators, etc etc.
 
 
TroyJ15
04:39 / 15.07.07
And 'checking your brain at the door' is basically lying to yourself. On some level, it's all getting through. I love two out of three Indiana Jones films, but there's not a moment where I'm not aware how racist they are or that, for example, Ravenwood's presented, essentially, as either tied up or drunk, presumably to keep her from being too much of a threat any of the men, including Junior, there.

It's not lying to yourself. Some things just don't demand much brain power. And you like it for visceral reasons because it entertainingly done. Morrison's We3 is pretty straightfoward. It's quick and enjoyable and you don't have to take much away from it.
 
 
This Sunday
08:05 / 15.07.07
Emotional levels aren't separate, though. The notion that there's a distinct separation between emotional and other forms of thought is silly. My reaction to the Animal Man story in question, the Indiana Jones films, and WE3 are all guided by immediate gut perceptions, primarily, and consideration beyond that, but that the emotional elements are shaped by the (near) instantaneous interpretation is undeniable. Otherwise, two people wouldn't be able to read/interpret, for example, the same love scene - the same face paired with a bowl of soup in one cut and a dancing monkey in another - as sweet or cruel. Immediate reactions are still guided by past experience and awareness, so we each have differing immediate interpretations of things like blatant racism, incredibly humane self-sacrifice, the impact of one's response to hunger, violence, or even the speech-patterns of a fictional character. Those aren't studied analytical reactions, but the gut reaction, from which our analytical models, if we choose to make them, are to some degree built upon.

And, w/WE3, surely 'gud dog' and some other heartrending and lovely moments aren't escaping anybody? Not even shooting for a rumination on the not-self/suits bit.

At least for me, it is a case of deliberately ignoring in some works, the displeasing elements, or at least, recontextualizing them to something more my liking. Visceral reactions, fleshly or sensorial interpretations, are neither inevitably non-analytical, nor are they ever not part of the brain. Otherwise, we'd never smell the bird when it's time to retrieve it from the oven, or quickly pull nearer (or, away) when we're close enough to feel the warmth off another human being.

In some ways, comics, especially highly-cartooned, are the form of entertainment best suited to sensualist analysis addicts, due to the high level of interpretation involved at the immediate level of simply scanning around a page, filtering in the proper sounds, motions, and smells mostly from your own personal experience inventory. Visuals provide slightly more direct information than pure text, and and it's up to every audience-member to choose a rate of intake, themselves, unlike most films or paintings; emotional elements can stop you cold, in comics, and yet, chances are, even deadened, your eyes have already glimpsed at the following panel, and so, you've taken in more information of the future than would be likely with prose (unless you're one of those paragraph-at-a-time types).
 
 
TroyJ15
00:28 / 16.07.07
I envy those paragraph-at-a-time types. LOL! I can't help but veer my eyes over to the next page.

Y'know, actually, after I made that statement I rethought my position. I think you are correct, to an extent. I just recently got into a bit of back and forth with a friend about my disdain for the Transformer film. According to what I said earlier, the visceral aspects should allow me to enjoy it. But I hate it.

Matter-of-fact, this statement below sums up my attitude on my friends' enjoyment of Transformers...

If you have to, defiantly - perhaps, xenophobically - lie to yourself for pleasure or to preserve pleasure, that's bad reading and not particularly helpful to the species on the whole.

(I'm surprised no one jumped on me about my George Lucas/author's intent answer. That usually pisses some people off)
 
 
Spaniel
14:49 / 20.07.07
Do know a bit about deconstruction actually: the theory and it's history. Was just going off on a drunk rant. Don't think it's all quackery.

For'n'record, like
 
  

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