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Hunting Lodge – second album diary

 
 
Seth
13:36 / 25.06.07
Barbelith seemed like the right place to put a Hunting Lodge album diary rather than my blog. I thought for a while that it might be too self-indulgent, but I also thought that it could be really interesting to ask for ideas and input as well as be interesting for the Music Forum to reveal a bit about our creative processes. There's also the fact that Barbelith has been a source of major support to the band, what with Flyboy interviewing us a while back for No Innocent Bystanders, Ognarud Suitangi-Ognajd booking us to play Kosmische and reviewing us in Plan B and the above and beyond the call of duty co-financing to book Melt Banana for the Noise Annoys show at Southampton Joiners. So it felt right to have it here.

So over the coming months I'll be periodically updating this thread with what we're up to, how we're working, choices that we're making and things like that. We've taken an almost complete break from gigging in order to get a new set of songs ready and the aim is to have the new album done by the end of the year. We've done quite a lot already; we're perhaps a quarter to a third of the way through the writing process. Two new songs have been part of our set for the last six months or so, and we have three or four more in varying stages of completion.

To begin with, I always appreciate ideas for rhythms I can steal or adapt to use with the band. To give you an idea of the kind of things I like to play, I've so far ripped of MIA, El-P, Beyonce, The Clipse, Fela Kuti and made attempts to play like Brian Chippendale (Lightning Bolt) and Chris Corsano. We've probably come to the end of ripping off the straight four on the floor disco and happy hardcore stuff, it was fun while it lasted but I think we've exhausted that now.

If anyone can suggest a song with drums that they like, preferably with links to MP3s so that I can get hold of them easily, I'll give them a listen and see if I can learn them if I like them. I can't promise to use everything, and I have a fair few ideas of my own (including a monster of a rhythm that I've stolen wholesale from Tasmanian Pain Coaster from El-P's I'll Sleep When You're Dead that already sounds like it will out groove The Plough). But please, the more ideas the merrier, let me know if you think something will work well.

To give you an idea, the new songs are heading a lot further in the direction implied by I am Feudal Japan and Silver Prince from the first album and our cover of ZZ-Top's Waiting for the Bus, all of which you can listen to on our MySpace page. We're generally getting much more melodic with increasing complexity in our arrangements, and in my humble what we've got so far is really rather special. Here's hoping we do it justice when it's recorded...
 
 
_pin
18:27 / 25.06.07
 
 
petunia
19:01 / 25.06.07
So when are you playing manchester?
 
 
Seth
20:55 / 25.06.07
We are heading into very prog territory. One of the names that's being mentioned a lot is King Crimson. We've just finished(ish) a song that Clive bought to the table that is based around a very chuggy, driving riff that's just a little off-kilter, goes into a very Crimson-esque ascending part for a "chorus" (we don't have choruses. Chori?), then goes into 5/4 for the ending that starts a little like a folk reel then into a really hammering 5/4 stolen directly from Dear Sirs off El-P's I'll Sleep When You're Dead.

I know, at some point I'll have to buy the man a pint.

As an aside, what we do at the end of the song is pretty textbook in terms of how I approach drums. Because I'm of fairly meagre ability I look to do the most I can with what I've got, and that's usually in the form of rule making. I like to play loops without fills or variation, so when playing the Dear Sirs rhythm I add minor variations so that the rhythm groups together as seven groups of five, whereas Clive is playing in eight groups of five. By cycling differently the song is ever-so-slightly off balance and my ego is stoked by knowing that only a small number of people listening will ever twig what I'm doing. It's easy to play but the effect is very nice. The rules here would be no fills, only varying with hi-hat splashes, and to give the effect of seven over five without having to learn anything complex.

Incidentally, the song doesn't have a title yet but I believe the lyrics are stolen wholesale from a version of The Hunchback of Notre Dame that Dan C has been reading (we have two Dans. Dan B and Dan C).

As for when we're playing Manchester, the only show we have in the calendar is in London with Duracell on 11th August. We've stopped gigging so that we can focus on writing and get a new set of songs together for live shows. A lot of old material will probably not be heard live very often at all in future.
 
 
Seth
21:07 / 25.06.07
(we have two Dans. Dan B and Dan C)

We are the Spice Girls of moronic/damaged art funk.
 
 
petunia
21:10 / 25.06.07
With Duracell?!

I hate London so bad. Stabby stabby argh jealous.
 
 
Seth
21:13 / 25.06.07
I'm sure there's Londoners who would sort you out with a place to crash.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:00 / 25.06.07
Are you and the guys planning on including any ska-influenced rhythms on the new one, YO!?

It's just that having watched a fair amount of the Glasto coverage through the usual red mist this year, I noted that the rocksteady beat seems to be what the kids are into at the moment. It might be a bit boring to play, I suppose, from a drummer's perspective (although I don't know for sure, of course) but I'd like to think of you fellas breaking through to the Radio One evening sesh with at least one of the tunes from the new platter (suggested titles; 'My Degeneration' and 'The Joy Of Sleep') and, let's face it, a creative/destructive approach to same the last time the Kingston sound was this current, in the most awful way (UB40, The Police) didn't seem to hurt The Pop Group any.

All of which is by way of saying that I wonder if you couldn't do worse than listen to, and imbibe, a fair amount of current Jamaican dancehall?

I don't have any links, unfortunately, because all I do is sit here and gather dust to a soundtrack of superannuated Britpop, but it shouldn't be too hard to track down what's good at the moment, all the same.

I'd suggest also, though it's perhaps a bit late in the process, that your singer should be thinking a bit more about Lou Reed and Mark Smith, and less about Beefheart and the guy from Napalm Death, but then again, a lot of the time I just wave at the traffic, so not to mind me.

Best of British with the thing, obviously.
 
 
Seth
23:47 / 25.06.07
Just for you Granny... this is the blurb for Hunting Lodge from the British Wildlife Weekend program (a weekend festival we played in Leeds):

9.30pm Hunting Lodge

Jamaica is an island of contrasts. The magical beaches and verdant landscapes provide an unlikely backdrop for political discord, restless youth and gun culture. Alongside a history of rebellion co-exists an incredible musical heritage that boasts a score of artists who made music that made a difference. One dreadlock rasta is ensuring that the roots and cultural legacy lives on. Perhaps the most captivating and enigmatic performer to emerge from Jamaica in the last twenty years.


As a band we are obsessed by reggae, but in the kind of way in which none of us really listen to huge amounts of it. Possibly... tenuously... just maybe... it is because it is one of the few types of music that none of us can imagine playing.

Although one of the new tunes does have a calypso section.
 
 
Seth
23:50 / 25.06.07
By the way, Granny... have you ever heard The Rebel? They're like you in band form.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:35 / 26.06.07
I'm not sure if that's a high-five, necessarily.

ALL I MEANT TO DO WAS HIGH 5 YOU, YOU BASTARD ... and you give me ... The Rebel.

I'm, y'know ... I'm familar with his morbidly uncommercial work.
 
 
Seth
11:58 / 26.06.07
I kinda thought it was a compliment. I appreciate your plucky spirit!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:40 / 26.06.07
(I've actually got no idea who this so-called Rebel is, to be honest.)

I still think you look into some dancehall, though. I can entirely see why you and the guys wouldn't want to go anywhere near the more religious material (this being a bit like Homer Simpson wearing a Dread hat in the Lollapalooza episode) but the Slack stuff does seem to be up for grabs. In the sense that the work of say, Elephant Man (unless he's gone 'conscious' recently) appears to have more to do with existential nihilism than it does with anything spiritual. So I'm reasonably sure no one on that scene would mind too much if you ripped off their drum patterns.

Or have I absolutely got the wrong end of the stick, as it were?
 
 
Seth
15:29 / 26.06.07
Do you have anything particularly in mind? There probably is room for some dancehall... But the main problem is that we've tried reggae and its derivatives a few times and never been able to pull off something we're comfortable with. However since the last time we attempted it we've become a lot more comfortable about approaching things in an idiomatic manner, mainly through realising that it gives us a much larger playing field than other bands who draw arbitrary rules regarding what they will and won't attempt... and also because by the time we're done with it it rarely sounds idiomatic.
 
 
Seth
15:51 / 02.07.07
To help keep ideas in my head, as well as to continue along the path intended in the first post, here's a rundown of the songs/fragments of songs we have worked out so far...

Miracle Beam: begins with a droney, ominous build before one I play one of the few beats that I haven't shamelessly ripped off, a kind of hybrid between triple time Melt Banana and hard hitting slightly swung hip hop with Dan B playing what sounds like a death ray from his guitar. The last repeat doesn't resolve and the rhythm switches to something we stole from a Fela Kuti song, with an ascending bassline and guitar that uses a recurrent motif as a jumping off point to wander all over the place, still sounding like something a robot supervillain might play. The ending is dumb inept funk, with the rhythm inspired by Beyonce's Crazy in Love (a very loose approximation, as I couldn't be arsed to learn it properly) and synchronised shouts of "Yeah!" after Dan C tells us that he's got a secret.

Dream of Peace: Begins with Clive and Dan B playing the same riff but with the bass twice as fast so they cycle strangely, with me largely hitting out at the drums at random. The piece builds into a marching rhythm that continues until it all falls apart (Dan B thinks reminiscent of Albert Ayler, I have no frame of reference). This is the one part of the song which I think needs work, as the bass drum constantly on the beat is an M.O. I'd hoped to leave behind, and falling apart is a classic way for us to opt out of making a hard structuring choice, one which I'd rather not return to. Instead I think I'm going to play Solsbury Hill in my head while the rest of the band do what they like and we'll find some way of bridging the gap that's better. The main riff is more melodic and heroic than anything we've done up to now, reminding me a lot of Parts & Labor (we've talked about getting either electronics or horns on this for the recording) or wedding bells. The mid section is our approximation of calypso with a beat very loosely inspired by Wamp Wamp (so loosely that I'll probably imitate that song a lot more closely for something else in future), then building up in manner that's fairly poppy into the main riff again.

Most of the pieces don't yet have titles, although one of them will end up being called Matrix Warrior if I have my way.

The next piece hasn't got a title. I think it's about a basketball player... Dan C's contributions are usually the last to be put in place and the most difficult to discern (in terms of the actual content of the words). It begins with what should be several minutes of Dan B solo, playing very quiet, sparse notes that highlight the tone of the guitar via his Bug-Crusher pedal (guitarists, please check out the wonderful Bugbrand site. He makes beautiful boxes that make beautiful noises). It sounds a little like Tetuzi Akiyama. When the rest of the band enter it's sudden, crashy and sparse, a very slow and doom metal until it goes highlife, with another attempt at random drumming (and more rule making, at the moment this consists of no crashes after fills). One by one the band exits until we return to Dan B's solo playing that apes the beginning.

Dan B and I have been listening to a lot of gamelan music, and there's another piece inspired by this which we may try to very loosely structure around prearranged signals and simple patterns of improvisation so that it can be different every time. This is in the early stages and will require some practise before we can get the effect we're after, and I think we'll need a couple of recurring themes so that it's at least recognisable each time we play it. It's a new way of playing for us, one that I'd like to do more often. Previously our improvisations have been the worst kind of turgid jamming shite and the loose framework of aping the sound of the gamelan and the signal based non-structure may give us enough of a guiding hand for us not to revert to form.

There are two pieces that have barely been constructed yet. One is something Dan B bought to the table and it's the most overtly prog-rock thing we've ever attempted, with a guitar line that I'll have to listen to a thousand times before I can approximate the timing. It's a mix of several different time signatures, so I think the only way I can realistically learn something for it is to learn the whole phrases and syncopate my drumming. Once it's done it will probably sound like Deerhoof played by Yes, which I'm not sure anyone is desperate to hear... it's quite folky and totally unlike anything we've ever attempted. It then progresses into a series of related 5/4 sections that I've pretty much got my head around already with a rhythm that's embarrassingly half stolen from Howard Shore's Uruk-Hai/Saruman themes and half ripped off the way Vinnie Colaiuta plays on the stranger time signatures, with the on beat ride accenting that shifts to the off-beat for the second half of the bar.

The last idea that we've attempted involves a rather amazingly good *Chinese* sounding riff (this is the kind of things that song parts always get named during the writing process) that goes into an off-kilter Magma inspired funk section. In order to play what I think will sound good I sadly have no alternative here but actual hard work. I can't play the part I want to play so I'm going back to my rudiments and trying to get a reverse double paradiddle up to speed with all the different bass drum accents that might be required. This is a way of approaching songwriting that I learned from a very old Neil Peart interview in which he spoke about deliberately writing parts that he couldn't play to begin with and then learning them throughout the writing, rehearsal and recording process. I recommend it, but not too often and not if you're just coming up with something that's complex for compexity's sake.

This thread was always going to involve me admitting to things to which I really shouldn't give a public voice. Over-reliance on El-P for beats. Howard Shore. Vinnie Colaiuta. Neil Peart. Yes.

Oh dear.
 
 
Seth
16:24 / 02.07.07
In my defense Dan B describes the Yes play Deerhoof riff as sounding like Renaissance. Things might be getting nasty but the blame can evenly be placed four ways.
 
 
Char Aina
17:22 / 02.07.07
A drum pattern I use a bit in my own music is the most common dancehall one. Personally I think it's one of the best things there is about dancehall.

written down, it'd look a bit like this:

1...2...3...4...

K.....K.....S...

..c...c...c...c.



K for Kick, S for Snare, C for Closed Hats, although they are totally optional. I often leave it bare, opting for some fill in flutter around the snare hit instead of metronome hat action. Cowbell, rimshots and toms are all good to back it up, as long as you keep those three hits; kick... kick... snare...
It gives you quite a good, wierd, driving beat, and it works realy well in a load of contexts.
 
 
Seth
17:31 / 02.07.07
Ah, cool. I haven't listened to any dancehall really (only through people attempting to beatbox drums badly in an attempt to describe the music that's in their head, the main culprit typically being Dan out of Skindred), but from that post my half-assed stab at misremembering the drums from Crazy in Love came out exactly as you've notated but with some latin(ish) cowbell patterns played on my waste disposal sink instead of the closed hat part.
 
 
Bandini
08:01 / 03.07.07
I want to hear Deerhoof played by Yes!
 
 
Seth
16:45 / 16.07.07
I'm glad someone does!

The latest song to be semi-completed is the one with the Chinese-sounding riff. This has now been bolted onto the rhythm stolen from El-P's Tasmanian Pain Coaster and also features some very badly played Brian Chippendale rip off drumming and brilliant guitar/bass duelling fugue stuff that totally aims for horns raised cock rock triumphalism. None of the sections resolve properly, there are loads of random bars and syncopations thrown in to make the sections blend smoothly (well, ish). The entire thing is at breakneck pace and is practically impossible for me to play at my current level of ability, so it'll take a while to get it in my muscle memory. Once it's properly rehearsed it will sound awe-inspiring. I hope.

In other news, writing and recording will be complicated by the fact that my beloved Nirvash, steed for the band for eighteen months, is dying. He won't be around much longer I'm afraid. I had a quote for repairs earlier today and it's not going to be cost-effective to fix him. This has made me sad, and also makes getting people and equipment around much, much harder. Hopefully it won't be long before a solution is found.

Finally there are some ideas for the album that I'm keeping quiet on right now, partially because they're far too funny to spoil and partially because they're not confirmed and so might fall through. One thing I will mention is that the current working title (subject to change) is Vision: 2010 and that we're all currently obsessed with coaching for excellence, corporate strategists and the technology of achievement. Expect many inspiring and motivational themes.

We are all heroes striving for our personal peak performance, unreachable stars, movie star partners, pinky rings, market dominance!

Get your nobs out boys. MANLY IGNITION!
 
 
RichT's boring old name
12:10 / 17.07.07
I now feel EMPOWERED
 
 
Seth
23:53 / 19.09.07
Just received the very rough mixes of three songs that we've done as demos to potentially drum up label interest. We'd like to not have to self finance the album this time, see it get a wider distribution and hopefully more attention from people who might like it.

My response is mixed. On the one hand we've got three very strong songs recorded. On the other, being able to hear them from the outside has made a couple of us realise how much more work we want to do on structural fine tuning and rewriting them.

I can't help but feel that we're at a crossroads at the moment.

Two of the completed songs have very tight structures already that lend themselves to be played the same way each time, in a way that not many of the songs on the first album really had. We used to have more of a loose cues approach, some sections that could last as long as we felt was right on the night. An increased amount of detail, more melody and a greater desire to break out of old ways of playing and working has meant that we've gone more in the direction of having actual definite songs... at least so far.

I can't help but feel that this is working against the resources we have available right now, though. Right now I see our resources as being our willingness to try fresh ideas, to rewrite what we see the band as being about, to try to sound like something unlike anything else we've heard, and having a much greater range of sound options to draw from.

Our main limitations are time, money and the logistics of one of us living in Bristol, another in London and the rhythm section being in Hampshire. Plus the irregular lifestyle that I lead with work means that not all weekends are free to rehearse.

Writing with a great attention to structural detail is great and I'm very pleased with the results we've got so far, even if they need further work. However it's very time intensive, which is the major resource that we just don't have at the moment. A greater complexity and depth of arrangement is a fine thing and I want all of our new songs to have it, I'm just not sure we're going the right way about getting it.

I'm increasingly thinking that we'd get equally fulfilling results if we started to play games more, set up rules and parameters for songs rather than explicit structures. It's a logical progression from some of the patterns we fell into on the first album, with us listening out for prearranged cues, only a lot more intensive than that. Whole pieces could be structured like games or systems, with strategies rather than linear planning. That's a lot of what I see in the demos so far, they have hints of amazing structure but the points that require work are a little like watching blocks of four move across a Cubase screen, and it requires a great deal of finesse to get away from that blocky feeling.

With game playing you get away from that blocky sense. There are no formal number of repeats, just what feels right. There are no definite linear passages, instead you get four instruments playing off each other in more of a free dimensional space with without strictly metred timings. Structural moments happen by accident rather than design and the capacity for re listens is higher because even in a recorded version the forms are that much harder to predict. It plays to another of our strengths, the sense of barely organised chaos that I'm starting to regret us slowing moving away from.

If all this is starting to sound alarmingly art wank then I guess it depends which games you choose to play, which parameters you seek to set. It's a means of generating surprise and complexity from comparatively simple rules, it makes it free from the tendency to jam wank by forcing you to play in a non-idiomatic manner and use your imagination, but it can still be played with a lot of energy and groove. When I talk about this kind of thing the loss of visceral impact and dance-ability is the last thing I want to lose.

Not that anyone dances at our gigs anyway. Well, rarely. But the point is that we'd like people to dance.

With this different approach we'd essentially be choosing the path of least resistance, in that it plays to the resources and works around the limitations that I've listed above. Yes, it takes time to learn to play in this manner, but I don't think nearly as much time as it does to come up with complete songs as we've been doing up to now.

So... again, it's slow going. Frustratingly slow. We're playing at the edge of what we can achieve and pushing ourselves, and it means that our egos are sometimes getting rubbed the wrong way and we spend ages chasing down dead ends. It's hard to be in a band, especially hard if you really care about it, are hugely opinionated, bloody reactionary, stubborn and have extremely high standards. We've made decisions not to repeat ourselves and not to fall back on laziness, it's really showing in the quality, but that quality is only a hint of what we can achieve if we push ourselves just that bit more.

Of course, it's all going to be trickier now the Transit is written off. RIP Nirvash. Does anyone have a Transit or Transporter they can lend us?
 
 
Seth
00:03 / 20.09.07
God, that was a rambling mess. I may edit later.
 
 
Seth
18:22 / 20.09.07
An extremely rough version of one of the new songs can be found here.

Thoughts and feedback would be really appreciated. It may need restructuring, and recording quality-wise please remember that it's only a demo, and a distorted one at that.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:33 / 20.09.07
Well, I liked it.

It could be a soundtrack to the invasion of a Tokyo zen garden by escaped mental patients who think they're in the Rat Pack, serenading young lovers, in a way that is tragically not the case.

There's obviously no bad way of capturing that musically. But what I would say is, could you persuade your singer to be a bit more Dean Martin on that track, anyway? It might be so much more terribly fucked-up (in a good way) if he was crooning the number in the manner of an end-of-his-tether, shitfaced office character who believes for three minutes that he can fly, like Sinatra.
 
 
Bandini
06:58 / 26.09.07
Really liked it. Cetainly some Corsano flourishes in the drums!
I know it's perhaps not very helpful as it's a demo but on my stereo the vocals sounded way too high in the mix but that could just be my personal preference on the Hunting Lodge sound coming out to.
 
 
Seth
00:14 / 28.09.07
Thanks, guys.

I'm feeling a lot better about the songs now that alternative mixes are coming in and Dan B is adding overdubs. It's hard to judge something when you're so close to it... I can see improvements to be made... and we've got a lot more work to do before recording again. I like what we've done... ah, I dunno. I'm feeling quite lost for words in general at the moment, as if everything that leaves my mouth or gets typed is bullshit as soon as I utter it. I feel like I talk a lot of shit.

I really want to make a good record.
 
  
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