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A Libertarian Feminism?

 
 
xenoglaux
19:57 / 22.06.07
Keep in mind I live in the U.S...

I have recently completed my third year of Women & Gender Studies. My studies have brought me many mental challenges, but the most of all of these is my need to connect my libertarian-leaning beliefs with my education thus far. I will readily admit that my lessons haven't been given to me "objectively" (I have many doubts that objectivity is anything more than an impossible idea), and I feel that my professors and the authors of the books I have read are all pushing me towards a socialist understanding of the world.

I am grasping for a way to connect the hard facts with the principles of libertarianism. I am just beginning this challenge, so my thoughts are a bit scattered on the topic. Let me try to explain... For example, libertarianism is opposed to affirmative action. But under the circumstances of history and under those in which U.S. society functions today, I don't hear anyone coming up with a better solution to the problems of discrimination in jobs and colleges. In fact, what I have read of current libertarians' perspectives on affirmative action has not been far from the essentialist argument that people of color (and women) would already be achieving more if they were biologically capable.

One of the main complaints about libertarianism is that it favors white males. How can we create a libertarianism that does not? Or is that possible?

Any thoughts on the subjects are appreciated. This is my first time posting, so I'm trying to get a feel for Barbelith
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
20:05 / 22.06.07
Can I ask what you see as the basic principles of libertarianism? Obviously, we're mostly talking about it in the US sense of the term, but it still covers a wide variety of ideological positions.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:21 / 22.06.07
Tom's question was mine too, what do you think the basic principles of libertarianism are? I popped 'libertarian principles' into google and it came up with this. It suggests to me that feminism and anything that refers to social groups/structures of any kind simply don't fit into libertarianism because it doesn't recognise that such things even fundamentally exist. Women are simply to be treated as individuals, I think it favours white men because it doesn't try to specifically address current inequalities, libertarianism fails to notice the subtleties of human societies.
 
 
*
21:15 / 22.06.07
If you find that your beliefs can be described as individualist, this might be of interest. The poster argues that individualism fights bigotry because bigotry relies on faceless categories of people against whom it can discriminate. Presumably this refers to some method of leveling individualism so that everyone will be treated as equally individual, but I have yet to see how that will occur.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
22:32 / 22.06.07
True, but that hinges on everybody in a newly-constituted Liberterian society being firm believers in individualism and acting as such. Realistically there are going to be some people who believe that individuals should not be treated as part of homogenous groups and those that don't.
Considering the Liberterian principles Anna linked to, could it be argued that discriminatory hiring practices use force to take away a person's right to property- the paycheque they would be picking up had they not been discriminated against and therefore violate point three?
 
 
xenoglaux
23:52 / 22.06.07
This concept is so new to me that I probably don't have my terms all laid out correctly. By "libertarianism" I mean the basic principle that every person is solely responsible for herself. I know there are many complexities to libertarianism, so perhaps I do mean individualism.

I like the way you put it, Anna de Logardiere: I think it favours white men because it doesn't try to specifically address current inequalities, libertarianism fails to notice the subtleties of human societies. The same idea was bouncing around in my head but I didn't know how to say it directly. I suppose my question now is, is there a way that libertarianism can be feminist? It seems like Zippy's link might provide some insight (thanks!).

I realize that this thread might have been better posted in Head Shop...
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
00:28 / 23.06.07
This is an interesting and detailed attempt to fuse libertarianism and feminism as an ideology. The authors seem to be very much on the left wing of libertarianism.

I'd also suggest you may want to look into individualist anarchism. Certainly in its historical form, it tends towards socialism far more than modern libertarianism does. While still putting the sovereignty of the individual central. I think it is probably easier to reconcile with feminism then the "winner takes all" style of many of the modern anarcho-capitalists.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:18 / 23.06.07
How does maternity pay/leave function under libertarianism? On one hand you have property rights (your job?) and an objective code of rules, on the other you have individuals who want the same job and have an individual right to acquire it should the original individual no longer be able to perform that job due to being on leave.
 
 
alas
21:56 / 23.06.07
Hi, xenoglaux--I'm interested in your perspective, and glad to see you struggling with this issue. Unfortunately, I think libertarianism and feminism are fundamentally incompatible, and that libertarianism is fundamentally misogynist and antiwoman. Here's a revised/edited version of how I explained it on an old Ayn Rand thread (one of the first I ever contributed to here, if I rightly recall).

The problem with classic liberalism (i.e., philosophies grounded in individual rights) in general, both from a simply logical perspective and from a feminst perspective in particular, is its assumption that the state of nature is the atomized isolated individual; that individuals come together after the fact of existence for protection and create social institutions.

For example: You, dear reader, did not give birth to yourself. You did not cuddle and hug yourself as a child. You did not feed yourself. You did not teach yourself to read and write. You could not have learned the complexities of this language you are using in a vacuum.

No human being ever existed in that kind of individualised vacuum. Ever. We none of us couldn't survive alone. Therefore, the basis for virtually all liberal philosophies is essentially a warmed-up "Adam" story, a modernized one told in pseudoscientific terms, but one that always goes back to a lone man, maybe but not necessarily with a woman side kick (as an afterthought), but first and foremost a man who sprang full blown from nothing (or the mind of god, take your pick), but who never had a mother or needed physical, intellectual, economic nurturing.

That is bullshit, pure and simple. Humans have always and already been tribal beings. Liberalism is a white western male fantasy that could only be created by the misogynistic bent of our culture, which allows powerful people to disregard, dismiss, and forget most contributions made by others to their existence and their position of power, particularly if those others are nonwhite and women. It is no coincidence that liberalism's roots are in the Enlightenment, when people like John Locke were invested in the Royal African Company of England. (RACE, ironically), and of course the founders of the US were white, male slave-holders. Their very concept of freedom arose with a concept of chattel slavery. It is inseparable.

And that's the core: the main thing that liberalism trips over are issues with regard to inheritance--and that to me is the real sticking point.

The fact is that none of us comes into this world without a legacy. We are not Adam. For some of us, our legacy is financial capital, for a few of us it includes some form of social capital--connections to people who have survived or even thrived in the human societies we all depend upon for our daily needs.

But most of the world are born not into vast social and financial capital but into huge debts accrued before we were born, in the form of racism attaching to our skin tones and/or perceived racialized features (the shapes of our noses and/or eyes), a lack of pre-natal health care, or real, legal debts of our families, or simply having connections to lots of poor people who have been harmed by oppression but few wealthy or even just financially-secure people. And there are real penalties, also, for being born into the legacy of a history where people like them have doors slammed in their faces that others can't even see as doors. I have benefited from things that I don't even see, can't even recognize--not a history, e.g., of lynching or of the US Dept of Agriculture actively discriminating against black farmers (and women farmers) and for people who looked like my dad and grandpa (they admitted openly having done so through 1997, when they apologized and stopped, under Clinton).

These privileges ultimately allow me to be typing to you on a Saturday afternoon. If you are reading this, chances are very good that you have also inherited a powerful legacy of access to various critical literacies in this world, and probably some level of financial solvency not earned solely as the efforts of your lifetime.

Liberalism strictly defined cannot fully recognize those legacies and their power. It cannot see the liabilities that others inherit, both sides of the legacy/liability scale are reinforced and protected by our current political, economic, and legal structure, and I see no way that a liberal agenda can truly address those facts from its limited individualistic, phallocentric ideological framework.

I'll be interested in discussing this further with you!
 
 
xenoglaux
16:06 / 25.06.07
My hardcore-Randian friend pushed me to listen to a segment of audio book from one of Ayn Rand's publications (I don't recall which one). In it Rand described her view of what "man"'s political ideology should be. She went through her explanation of why altruism is actually evil, and why capitalism is the only true form of good human interaction and existence. I tend to think that a lot of what she says makes sense in terms of rational self-interest. But when she was talking about the ways in which "Third World" countries are backward and depraved, sucking money and life out of the United States, I realized how racist her perspective can be.

But I'm still not sure whether it really is racist of her to say that the Congo (this book was written in the 60s) is basically made up of a bunch of savages who rape and pillage each others' villages and then beg the U.S. for money. Is that racist, or is it naming the problem? Certainly her wording connotes racism. I believe she used the term "semi-savage" or something like it, and to me calling a people savage is blatantly racist.

My education has been leading me to question the notion that there is one truth that applies throughout the world. I would say that it is this point that persists in any class I take and any topic I study. That although, for example, there can be some similarities between U.S. feminism and Afghani feminism (perhaps the desire to liberate women from male oppression), the two are inherently different because they are influenced respectively by different cultural histories and norms. One of the main problems with feminism, in my opinion, is the generally-accepted notion that what works for the U.S. will work for any other country as well.

And if that's one of the main problems with feminism, then how can I say that there is One Truth to anything (that One Truth being the all-importance of the individual)? Or, perhaps, have I got it all backward--Is the problem with feminism not that it promotes a "one size fits all" method of liberation, but that it assumes that the case changes over space, time, and situation? Should feminism be more narrow in its approach?
 
 
alas
20:06 / 25.06.07
But I'm still not sure whether it really is racist of her to say that the Congo (this book was written in the 60s) is basically made up of a bunch of savages who rape and pillage each others' villages and then beg the U.S. for money. Is that racist, or is it naming the problem? Certainly her wording connotes racism. I believe she used the term "semi-savage" or something like it, and to me calling a people savage is blatantly racist.

Yep, agreed, "savage" is definitely a blatantly racist term--for North American Indians it has a particular history used to justify various forms of colonialist appropriations of their lands, their children, the natural resources that they were inconventiently (for whites) living on top of. The same term has certainly been long used by Westerners more generally as a way to justify treating other people as subhuman and then taking their lands, kidnaping them or their children, or otherwise exploiting their labor and/or resources. So you're absolutely right to have alarm-bells going off at such a statement, and, in my experience, when I have those kinds of alarm bells ringing in my own head, I find that I really should let those alarm-bells guide my process of analysis.

So. I'm going to start with a general analysis of this kind of thinking, and then I'll turn to the specific state of the Congo, unless someone else does so before me. Here's one basic assumption that I'll use as I re-attempt at naming this problem more accurately: poverty and oppression are not "pretty" in their effects: it's not all "we shall overcome" and Rosa Parks courageously refusing to move and the creation of beautiful art in the face of dehumanization and fear. That happens, of course, and it's great that we can sometimes celebrate those things. But most of the time, that's not how oppression works. Rosa Parks had moved to the back of the bus, probably struggled to keep her children well fed. Many other women like her struggled with abuse by their spouses, alcoholism and just not desparing over 400 years of legalized, ugly, racist oppression which still ain't over yet.

When a group manages to use its own resources and powers to steal resources from other people and then is able to create a legal structure that renames and justifies the stealing as "discovery" or "progress," and simultaneously exploit intra- and inter-group enmities in order to exploit more effectively (while offering crumbs to a few token, key participants from the oppressed groups, who get a little power over the oppressed cohort, so long as they maintain the goals and values of the oppressors), ugly things tend to happen. When you name people savages, start treating them as "subhuman" you create conditions in which they will have little choice but to act in ways that you will be able to read as confirming your initial reading of them as not fully human.

Analogously,Married, white, U.S. males in the 19th century had the right to commit their wives to an insane asylum without a public hearing. Once you have the power to label someone crazy, many women so committed would often tend to start acting in "crazy" way. The woman linked to above managed to write a book about the conditions of mental asylums, while being held there against her will, but most of the inmates did not do so, for various reasons.

Rand's analysis suggests that when specific groups of people have problems that I am arguing are the result of oppression, for her the best way to understand their problems is to assume that the people are subhuman, and the problems are self-created and not the result of oppression (see this earlier discusison of the "birdcage" metaphor for oppression and its double binds, developed by Marilyn Frye).

This approach is convenient for the person doing the analysis, because they don't have to explore or feel bad about the benefits they may be receiving from this oppression or what role they (via their government) may be playing in this oppression, and--as a bonus--they get not just their sense of their own humanity reinforced, but of their own civilized, superior humanity confirmed. Lucky them. It's "win-win" for them, and lose-lose for the oppressed. Wee hoo.

This kind of thinking makes me angry.

Now, onto the Congo: This excerpt from William Blum's Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since WWII offers a fairly clear sense of the narrative: 80 years of Belgium colonization, followed by (pseudo) "liberation" in 1960, followed by chaos as internal factions jockeyed for control, followed by the election of a charismatic and, many say, legitimate, democratic leader Patrice Lumumba, followed by US and conservative Congalese attempts on his life, the final one successful, ultimately replaced by a dicatator who was relatively sympathetic to US interests.

[And, remember, the Congo as a West African nation, many people were kidnapped and carried in to transatlantic slavery from Congo for hundreds of years; this loss of people was devastating to tribal populations, to the region's cultural and social stability, and it created a climate of continual warfare that was devastating to all concerned. Colonization followed on the heels of that history.]
 
 
Tsuga
21:29 / 25.06.07
While it is often unclear sometimes at what point one becomes totally responsible for one's actions, I find it mind-boggling how so many people can unforgivingly blame desperate people for desperate actions, oppressed people for perpetuating oppression, people enraged and frustrated from being shat on their whole lives for acting out of that anger and frustration. Everyone is a product, to greater and lesser degrees, of external forces, as much as their own actions. People are limited in their ability to respond or even think about things in their lives based on the limits of their existence. I cannot make stained glass, speak Mandarin, or design planes because I have no ability to. No one ever taught me, I never sought out the knowledge, I haven't been exposed. Maybe I have trouble speaking in public because of the physiology of my brain, or because I was publicly humiliated as a child. The point is, if I can't design a plane, how much of it is my fault? If I can't speak in public, how much of it is my fault? (Weak examples, I realize)I really hate Ayn Rand and her ilk's ridiculous opinions of humans raised in abject hopelessness just being weak, and the elect who raise themselves gloriously on the shoulders of the weak deserve to be above the rest. It's that idea, that- whatever you want is for the taking! Just take it before the next fool! While she may not technically be a libertarian, those attitudes seem to be shared between her and many self-proclaimed libertarians.

I really want to start a thread on hierarchies. It's just so vast, I don't know that I could ever do any justice to the topic.

More on topic, it seems libertarianism has certain precepts in common with feminism, but the course that libertarianism most often takes here in the states is one of guarding privilege and the reification of property. Or being a republican who wants to smoke weed and still drive a bus-sized motor home towing an Escalade.
A wiki quote:
To libertarians, an individual human being is sovereign over his/her body, extending to life, liberty and property.

Which I can understand, other than having some problems with the concept of property, especially just how far some people want to take that concept. But that first part is not un-feminist at all. Perhaps there could be some form of libertarian feminism, but as Anna said It suggests to me that feminism and anything that refers to social groups/structures of any kind simply don't fit into libertarianism because it doesn't recognise that such things even fundamentally exist. Women are simply to be treated as individuals, I think it favours white men because it doesn't try to specifically address current inequalities, libertarianism fails to notice the subtleties of human societies. It's all fine to say everyone is an individual and everyone is equal, but we're not all starting from a level playing field.
 
 
xenoglaux
18:45 / 26.06.07
I absolutely agree with Tsuga caroliniana's and alas' last comments. I think the sick feeling I get when I read Atlas Shrugged is a reaction to Ayn Rand's absolute rejection of environmental influence in a person's life. I think Rand and her philosophy completely miss a huge part of human existence, and that is the emotional/interactional/dependent part. Actually I don't think she misses it so much as completely avoids it for her own purposes, and then argues that her point of view is based purely on logic and is therefore the Ultimate Truth.

No wonder so many philosophers regard Ayn Rand as a joke. Some of the basic concepts of her philosophy make sense to me, and indeed can be very good. For feminism in particular, the notion that every person has an inalienable right to control what happens to her own body jives rather well. And I agree with Tsuga caroliniana that To libertarians, an individual human being is sovereign over his/her body, extending to life, liberty and property.
Which I can understand, other than having some problems with the concept of property, especially just how far some people want to take that concept.
The concept of property is one that continually trips me up. It's a postmodern conundrum: if property is a false idea, human-imposed, then could not someone say that the body cannot be property, and therefore everyone is entitled to anyone else's bodies? But if bodies are indeed property, what makes them property and land not? Couldn't one extend the idea of bodily property to land property and material property?

To me, feminism is not about women. And it is certainly not about women in the United States. Feminism is about pushing toward a global non-oppression of people. It is a movement equally for men as it is for women, because it involves both sides' equal participation. Oppression cannot be discontinued without the participation of the oppressor in the "healing process." A lot of feminists use the term "equality" to describe feminist ideals. I don't, because "equality" is a vague, diluted idea that no one can really explain. I don't believe that everyone is equal. Ranging abilities and skills differentiate people from one another. On the same token, however, I don't feel that profiting off of others' situations or lack of abilities is the way to make the world run smoothly.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:18 / 26.06.07
I think you're getting lost in the mind-body split. Your body is no more your property than your mind is, your body is quite simply you. If someone violates your body then unavoidably they also violate your mind because the split is ideological not practical. If someone violates your property (climbs over your fence and walks through the garden) then they're not violating you but the space that you choose to spend time in most frequently because the split is practical. Conflating the land around you/belongings with your body is untrue because you don't exist without your body, you do exist without your property.
 
 
diz
05:19 / 27.06.07
I think it favours white men because it doesn't try to specifically address current inequalities

I agree. However, I have been drifting more and more towards libertarianism as I have lost faith that such inequalities can be addressed effectively, at least by conscious effort, state intervention, etc.
 
 
Saturn's nod
05:59 / 27.06.07
I have lost faith that such inequalities can be addressed effectively, at least by conscious effort, state intervention, etc.

I hear a 'call to adventure' in the challenge of the inequalities of the world. I think our collective task as humanity in getting through this state of global crisis towards sustainable planetary inhabitation needs the dismantling of oppression because at present the majority of the world's population are being prevented from a full part in shaping that future. I perceive that dismantling happening every time people really listen to one another in contexts where there's a commitment to understanding and mutual assistance.

I find bell hooks' essays (I'm thinking of one which I think is in her collection 'Teaching community') particularly good at getting a balance of the importance and effectiveness of the radical feminist work of consciousness-raising and change that has already been done and is already underway, importantly without also unrepresenting what remains to be done.
 
 
xenoglaux
15:11 / 27.06.07
I am also a fan of bell hooks' work, and have most recently read Teaching Community, which I thought wonderful. Among the global problems being addressed at the moment is the issue of the environment (most often tagged simply "global warming"). It confused me for a long time why the environment was suddenly getting so much attention, especially from the American government. But I read something the other day that disturbed me: it was the most prominent Kennedy stating in an advertisement that people have a right to a clean environment, and that all other rights should basically be subject to revision in persuit of that goal. Scary. I knew there had to be something amiss in this whole thing. So now apparently we should have to give away our rights to individual liberty in order to work on the environment. I'd like to know where in the Constitution is states that all people have an inalienable right to clean energy...

So that's one of my main problems with collectivist thinking. Although I understand the importance of preserving our environment and ceasing to abuse and destroy it as we've been doing, I see it being used as a justification to take away individual rights and that I don't agree with.

I definitely believe we all have to work together to improve our situation here on earth, but can't that be done without sacrificing individual liberties? Can it be done in a libertarian fashion?
 
 
Saturn's nod
16:04 / 27.06.07
It's a really good question. One of the things that occurred to me whilst watching Joss Whedon's Firefly was that mentality: the ship is puttering around the galaxy spewing out pollution, and that makes them edgy heroic types fighting to survive. As it is the human activity going on at the moment is all on a small planet with a dreadful human history of oppression and exploitation. People are being poisoned right now, are suffering from previous acts of poisoning, and are spewing out poisons that won't stop hurting other beings for thousands of years. How do we negotiate a collective process so our species stands a better chance of survival without coercing anyone?

I guess I have such a strong sense of our inter-dependence that it's a bit hard for me to understand a mindset that reserves the right to carelessly poison in the name of freedom. We all have to share this small planet, under what possible circumstances can it be acceptable to shunt poisons onto other people in the present and future generations? There is no 'away' to throw to.
 
 
alas
14:01 / 28.06.07
Hi, Xenoglaux--I'm going to try to respond to this argument:

But I read something the other day that disturbed me: it was the most prominent Kennedy stating in an advertisement that people have a right to a clean environment, and that all other rights should basically be subject to revision in persuit of that goal. Scary. I knew there had to be something amiss in this whole thing. So now apparently we should have to give away our rights to individual liberty in order to work on the environment.

I tried to figure out what advertisement this would be, but, failing that on a brief google, I did determine that you're probably referring to something that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr, may have said--as he is a very prominent Kennedy and who is active in environmental law. Here's an excerpt from a recent interview of RFK Jr with The Progressive magazine:

Q: Just how dysfunctional is the federal government now?

Kennedy: There are two reforms that we need to restore our democracy. The first is campaign finance. We need to get the corporate money out of the election process. And second, we need to resolve the dysfunction in the environment. Looters are running agencies that are supposed to be protecting us from pollution. The person who supervises the head of the Forest Service has been a timber industry lobbyist. The person in charge of public lands till last year was a mining industry lobbyist who believed public lands are unconstitutional. The chief environmental adviser to the President was a lobbyist for the Chemical Manufacturers Association, as well as for Alcoa and General Electric. This is a picture of dysfunction.

But you can’t fix it without first fixing our democracy. We need election reform because our elections are being stolen. And these huge powerful voting machine vending companies have privatized the election process in our country.

Q: How much damage have the corporate capitalists done to bankrupt our nation?

Kennedy: There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. But corporations should not be running our government. Corporations are good because they drive our economy, they encourage people to assemble wealth and to risk it and then create jobs. They have driven the American economy since its founding, and the prosperity of our country is largely dependent on the free operation of corporations. But some corporations don’t want free markets, and they don’t want democracy. They want profits. And they use our campaign finance system to loot our commons, to steal from our treasury, and the other shared resources of our community—the air, the water, the public lands, the wildlife, the things that belong to all of us that are held in trust for future generations. Corporations cannot act philanthropically in America. It is against the law. They cannot act altruistically. They have to have, always, the profit motive in mind. When Wal-Mart brings water down to the Katrina victims, it’s not doing that to be nice; it’s doing it to make larger profits and to increase the value of its shares. If its actions are not accomplishing those objectives, the shareholders can sue the executives, and sue them successfully, because it is illegal for them to act on behalf of any other reason than increasing the value of their shares. There is nothing wrong with that. That is the way that they were created and the way we want them to function to increase prosperity in the market. But we’d be crazy to let them anywhere near our government. The only reason they want to influence government is to plunder. To steal from children.

Q: But this is not free market capitalism you are speaking of, is it?

Kennedy: We do not have free market capitalism in America; we have crony capitalism. There is a huge difference between free market capitalism that democratizes a country and makes us more efficient and prosperous and corporate crony capitalism.

Q: What would a true free market economy look like?

Kennedy: In a true free market economy, we would properly value our natural resources. In a true free market economy, you can’t make yourself rich without enriching your community.

What polluters do is raise the standards of living for themselves, while lowering the quality of living for everybody else, and they do that by escaping the disciplines of the free market. You show me a polluter, I’ll show you a subsidy. I’ll show you a fat cat using political clout to escape the discipline of the free market and force the public to pay his production costs.

These are facts that would make every American upset. Our birthright is being stolen, the legacy of our country is at stake, and the values of our nation are in peril. The future whispers, and the present shouts.


So, I read that and, while I think he is also speaking in words I'd like to unpack, I don't hear him saying that regular Americans need to curtail our freedoms, so much as the people who are profiting from making our environments unfit for human life.

If the lead from paint from a toy gets into a child's body, it damages that child's brain and will affect his entire life and his ability to achieve anything resembling liberty and the pursuit of his own happiness. If your body has mercury or other toxins in it, probably at levels that don't immediately affect your health, but your child drinks your milk, a corporation is using your body to poison your child because ultimately its responsibility is to profits. Your bodies, your lives are expendable to that corporation.

So I see that his value is democracy and a planet that belongs, at base to all of us. I ask, of him: who benefits from such a view? who is most likely to have to sacrifice, most? who would most resist these ideas, and for what reasons?

As I see it, He's trying to get us to note that there is NO lever to make a corporation responsible to people and the environment in our current legal and economic system.

There ARE means to to try to make governmental agencies accountable to the people. The problem being that making such changes takes effort and hard work, especially in our current bureaucratic environment. And because, as he notes, the "democratic" processes have been co-opted. It feels impossible. But should I put my faith in ideas that largely benefit the people who have made democracy more and more difficult?

As I look at middle class America, I think the "collectivity" is most readily found in thos of us who are relatively privileged--we have our bread and our circuses. A massive industrial agriculture complex provides us with 3800 calories per day of largely pre-processed food. We have ready access to a number of shiny media outlets whose main job is to deliver our eyeballs to their advertisers, although they keep telling us that it's really all about us, the consumer, who they keep assuring us, 5,000 times every day, is always right, always at the center. (Bullshit, I say: the shareholder is the center. And that's KEY.)

We figure our present is shouting: "buy an ipod and play games! It's too fucked to get involved with politics. And someone somewhere said that government just fucks things up anyway. So, what the hell, I'm a libertarian. Give me some soma."

So I found my spine straightening at the characterization of concern for the environment as "collectivist" thinking. Because I find that kneejerk "individualism" is by far the most collectivist kind of thinking we have in the US. (The old Monty Python bit where the whole crowd is repeating after their messiah Brian: "Yes, We're All Individuals!" comes to mind when I step in front of a classroom where virtually everyone is wearing flip flops, Abercrombie shirts....)

I spend quite a bit of time trying to explore the concept of hegemonic ideas in class, as a result. Basically, it boils down to taking a very skeptical stance toward ideas that are comfortable. Ideas that are "comfortable" tend to stop me from thinking further. And they very often reinforce the status of people who look like those in power/who get money and access to resources (including in some ways people who look kinda like me--white, middle-class women) and those who aspire to have power, money and easy access to resources (e.g., my college students).

These are often "common sense" notions, such as the one that "socialist" stances are "collectivist" and emanate from a borg-like conformist mindset, a grey world of unshaven women and wimpy men. Whereas the more "individualist"/"libertarian" thought in our current climate is somehow more "free" and "original" and less derived from a collectivity--a shiny world where everyone is beautiful. It looks a lot like TV.

[Few of us actively hold this idea in mind, it's more like a kind of sedimented, wordless perception that I think is in the background of our minds, grounding our emotional reaction to ideas and words. It gives "socialism" a negative "collectivist" connotation, and "capitalism" something more neutral and/or even positive connotations in mainstream discourse. Where do those images/background stories come from?]

I am not interested in giving answers, so much as requiring students to ask questions, like: Who profits ultimately from this notion? Who profits most? Who is most invested in the status quo? Who might benefit from changing the status quo? What exactly is the status quo, with regard to wealth, resources, power? What does the world population look like? What do world leaders of business and politics look like? Are they representative of the variety in the world? What kind of world do I want to see?

What I see, personally, is business and political leaders who are NOT representative of the variety of the world. I want the world to be more fair for everyone, more democratic, more rich in diversity. But I don't see the world moving in that way. In fact, I think the "middle class" is in real danger of disappearing, and I do think our consumption habits are in danger of killing the planet we depend on for survival. So I ask: What's going on, that massive groups of not really that powerful individuals are acting in ways that don't benefit them, or democracy, or the planet that allows them to survive, especially long term?

What ways would be most effective in convincing people who are actually probably being harmed by the status quo, not to change? that the change being asked for is likely to be worse than what we have now? Who benefits from having us pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?

(People recognize having a gun put to their heads as force, and they naturally resist it; people, me included, are much more susceptible to the seduction of advertisement and its illogic: "You are the most important person in the world. You are smart--not book smart, necessarily. You're smarter than the average person." Flash the product. Sales rise. Who benefits from that transaction, most? Is it based on real value to me, or just the cheap buzz of having my ego stroked?)

What traditions, thought patterns, distractions can be tapped into to tell a story, however, incoherent, that makes it seem logical to for us to continue down a path that is actually harmful to people like us?

Those are my questions. I don't think they are collectivist dictates, although I admit that I am not alone in asking them, and I need to be on constant awareness of the "ego buzz" factor of being "right" in a certain crowd and looking "cool." Still, I think they are worth asking of any piece of writing, and I don't think they are unanswerable or that all answers to them are equally well thought through.
 
 
xenoglaux
04:21 / 30.06.07
Alas -

It definitely was not that interview to which I was referring. It was an advertisement in a Wired magazine... I wish I could find the exact one. It was Robert Kennedy, Jr., and he was quoted as saying something to the effect of "everyone has a right to a clean environment, above all else."

Anyway, I really appreciate your analysis of the situation. I often find myself so caught up in political debate (especially now that the presidential race is on) that I begin to speak the same rhetoric I hear pour out of the mouths of all sides. And I forget the first rule: question everything!

I can see what you're saying about the false dichotomy between capitalism and socialism being individualist and collectivist, respectively. In fact, I think your comment on this thread has given me the boost I needed to stop running in circles with this whole thing (I knew there was a way out!).
 
 
diz
22:30 / 01.07.07
There ARE means to to try to make governmental agencies accountable to the people.

To be totally blunt for a moment, I'm not sure that more accountability to "the people" would help a lot of situations. I'm not sure that "the people" make better decisions than anyone else.
 
 
alas
16:05 / 02.07.07
To be totally blunt for a moment, I'm not sure that more accountability to "the people" would help a lot of situations. I'm not sure that "the people" make better decisions than anyone else.

I probably should have used "people" rather than "the people," I suppose, because I don't imagine a simple homogenous voice to come out of the masses of people who are denied realistic access to government. But most of us on this board still live in representative democracies, however problematic they are for a variety of reasons. Much of the power in these "democracies" and in our economies is in the hands of people who are oligarchs at heart, and who have a huge amount of money and are actively limiting access to power for everyone else, in order to increase their own profits at the expense of the planet and virtually all of the rest of us.

Political and economic cynicism is understandable, and is, not coincidentally, actively encouraged by the media environment in which we swim--who benefits from that? So it is especially seductive to middle class people. But political cynicism of this sort effectively strengthens the hands of multinational corporations and the 10% of the earth's population that control almost 90% of the wealth.

The other 90% of the population deserve more access to resources and more say in how resources are distributed. If people from the "bottom 90%" or those overtly allied with their interests were more directly involved in resource allocation, it would definitely change the picture.

To give what might even be a possible "libertarian feminist" kind of example, my argument about the world looking different if people without access to power/money are given access, seems to me to be supported by the notion of "microcredit" as exemplified in the work of the Nobel Prize winner in Economics from last year Muhammad Yunus, who has shown that--what do you know?--if you lend poor people money, they are good at paying it back and making a real difference in their own lives. Many of these people have traditionally been simply ignored by major lenders as incompetant and impoverished and illiterate, and therefore just understood by "common sense" to be a bad investment.

But, as it turns out, they are actually typically a better risk than the kinds of "safe" risks that mainstream banks would normally take on. And guess what? 96% of his loans are made to poor, "Third World," illiterate women.

I'll say it again: It makes politically lazy, middle class Westerners, sated by electronic credit-card opiates of our time and class feel good to believe that there's no way to change the status quo, and that there's no point in working for greater justice and democracy--and those who most benefit from the status quo are happy for us to keep believing that--but there's good evidence to the contrary all around us and in the historical record. And if you are a literate adult living in a wealthy, Western country and not actively working to change this situation, then you are not worth the space you are taking up on this gorgeous, fragile planet.
 
 
Tom Paine's Bones
18:46 / 02.07.07
At a slight tangent, what do you mean by "middle class" here? (I seem to remember that there are some differences in how it's used between the US and the UK, though I could be wrong).

Because actually I'm not sure that the middle classes aren't directly benefiting from the status quo at the moment, certainly when you look at those members at the higher end of the scale.

They might not have the same outrageous wealth and power of the upper class. But in terms of economic status, political representation etc. they're still disproportionately powerful.

And if that is the case, then they don't actually have a direct sectional interest in making the world fairer and truly democratic.

That isn't to say that there aren't activists from those backgrounds who are genuine and committed to doing so. I've known some. But we're looking at a case of them fighting for a more equal society against their class interests, not in line with them.
 
 
xenoglaux
20:57 / 03.07.07
It has been pointed out that a nobel prize-winning economist is making waves with his microfinance lending system that benefits those living below the poverty line. Here's the link again. This is clearly a case of the rich helping the poor. However, Yunus' bank is still making a profit, and so is Yunus himself. Rational self-interest does not necessarily exclude the ability to be socially conscious.

Furthermore, the whole purpose of the Grameen Bank is to get impoverished peoples to a financial point where they can become entrepreneurs, thus entering into the capitalist system. In short, the bank promotes capitalism as the means to end global poverty.

It is excellent work that Muhammad Yunus is doing; the value of lending on a community-by-community basis is a revolutionary idea, and one that must be embraced more. In order for the poorest people to prosper, business policies must be flexible and take cultural differences into consideration.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
19:33 / 01.10.07
This thread seems to have gone off on a bit of a digression, although a lot of the stuff in the digression is really interesting stuff which i'd like to comment on. However, i'd like to try to get back to the original question of whether libertarianism and feminism are compatible with each other...

To me, this is a very odd question, because I find it almost impossible to imagine a non-libertarian feminism. However, after reading this thread and the other libertarianism one, i'm beginning to think that what i think of as libertarianism might be very different from what is generally referred to as "libertarianism" in the dominant political discourse...

Firstly, i can't see how capitalism can possibly be compatible with libertarianism. For capitalism to exist, there must be a ready-to-exploit pool of labour, there must be states and laws to keep that pool of labour from expropriating their own earned wealth by calling that "theft" and criminalising it, there must be bureaucracies to enforce a large-scale, conformist employment system, there must be colonial oppression and exploitation to get raw materials out of the ground that so %inconveniently% happens to have indigenous peoples living on top of it, there must be armies to defend the states, there must be huge amounts of brainwashing to convince the proletariat that they can become bourgeois by consuming in order to keep them in their shitty jobs through false hope and false consciousness, there arguably must be patriarchally-headed nuclear families so that someone can cook and clean for the wage workers and raise their kids while they work all day (Maria Mies and Sylvia Walby write interestingly on this), etc, etc. All this is pretty much the opposite of liberty.

Also, there is no such thing as a "free market" - the phrase is a pretty blatant oxymoron. No capitalist economy could possibly survive without tariffs, trade embargoes and other forms of protectionism (see the IMF's "structural adjustment" programmes). So libertarianism, by definition, is either anti-capitalist or incoherent nonsense.

The central principle of libertarianism is self-ownership. That seems pretty central to feminism to me too - for an obvious example, the whole concept of reproductive rights stands on the foundational principle of "her body, her choice". Likewise the feminist perspective on the sex act is centred around the key principle that it is never, ever legitimate to do something sexual to a person's body without hir consent.

The enemy of libertarianism is paternalism. The enemy of feminism is patriarchy. Both stem from the same root word, the Latin for "father". As mutual enemies of the all-pervasive Western cultural archetype of the ("loving") Father, the ("wise") Ruler, the ("benevolent") Master, libertarianism and feminism would seem to be complementary critiques, natural allies. Indeed historically they have been (take it back to Godwin and Wollstonecraft... Goldman and Voltairine de Cleyre too).

Alas's points are really interesting, and i might have to come back to some of them more specifically in another post. However, the whole idea of the impossibility of the truly "independent" individual is something that i don't see as fundamentally opposed to libertarianism, partly because of the intersection of those ideas in the Disabled People's Independent Living Movement (in which I am an activist). This movement is essentially based around the idea that "independence" does not mean "doing everything for oneself", but "the right to choose what one wants to do with one's life, whether or not the assistance of others is needed, as long as it does not harm or infringe on the same right of any other person". Disabled feminists such as Jenny Morris and Micheline Mason have linked this to the feminist analysis in alas's post in order to point out that this is true not just of disabled people, but of all people; thus community is essential for liberty just as liberty is essential for true, freely chosen community.

I'm not sure that property rights are essential to libertarianism either (i'd argue on the land/housing front that the only legitimate "owners" of a building or a piece of land are the people who use it, but that their right to do as they please with it should be limited only by potential harm to others (eg pollution)).

I'm aware that there are branches of feminism (particularly the North American form of "radical feminism", as exemplified by the likes of McKinnon, Raymond, Jeffries) which can be seen as distinctly illibertarian - however, i think sex-positive feminism and transfeminism have fairly successfully refuted these (to the extent that they were anything other than straw (wo)men anyway). Oh yeah, Emi Koyama is t3h awesome on all these issues.

(Apologies if my writing style went a bit crazy in this post... the language part of my brain was behaving a bit non-linearly while i was writing it)
 
 
diz
22:46 / 01.10.07
To me, this is a very odd question, because I find it almost impossible to imagine a non-libertarian feminism. However, after reading this thread and the other libertarianism one, i'm beginning to think that what i think of as libertarianism might be very different from what is generally referred to as "libertarianism" in the dominant political discourse...

I think you are, yes. You're confusing libertarianism with anarchism, apparently with an inclination towards the more collectivist forms of anarchism. Libertarianism is basically aligned with what's referred to as classical liberalism, which is basically the current of thought that goes basically Adam Smith -> Ludwig von Mises -> Friedrich Hayek -> Milton Friedman. You do not appear to be a libertarian.

So libertarianism, by definition, is either anti-capitalist or incoherent nonsense.

Again, you're confusing libertarianism with anarchism.

The central principle of libertarianism is self-ownership.

No, the central principle of libertarianism is the sanctity of the right to control oneself and one's private property, including the right to exchange said property with other people under what people would broadly call "free market" principles.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
22:58 / 01.10.07
I understand libertarianism to contain, but to be somewhat broader than, anarchism, as i consider anarchism to be essentially the belief that the only true socialist is a libertarian, and the only true libertarian is a socialist.

I believe the term "libertarian" was coined by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who was regarded as one of the founding fathers* of European anarchism, but who would not have recognised the word "anarchism" in its modern sense. (Godwin and Wollstonecraft are certainly foreparents of libertarianism/anarchism, but i'm not sure that they used either word.)

Maybe i just have too much emotional attachment to the word "libertarian" to leave it to the capitalists...

*irony of usage of that word fully recognised...
 
 
diz
23:58 / 01.10.07
That's all well and good, but I am firmly of the belief that words mean what they're most often used to mean in whatever context. In modern political terms, and I think for the purposes of any discussion you might have here, "libertarian" = "capitalist who believes in minimal state intervention on the workings of the market." Milton Friedman is perhaps the ideological pole star for the current use of the term. Ron Paul is the most visible libertarian on the contemporary American political scene, but he holds a number of positions that are a bit outside the libertarian mainstream. The Cato Institute, Reason Magazine - this is what "libertarianism" means today.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
00:22 / 02.10.07
diz - you completely fail to acknowledge any usage of the word libertarian outside American discourse. It does in fact have a current meaning in Europe and surely also other places that does not coincide with your parameters.
 
 
diz
20:03 / 02.10.07
I apologize. I was unaware of the degree to which it was still active as a political term in Europe and elsewhere. Retracted, or clarified, or something.

Gah, I hate it when political terms mean wildly different things in different contexts.

HvL (and you used to be Natty Rah Jah, no?), I think this thread was started with the intent of discussing libertarianism in the US sense and its relationship to feminism, which, as we all know, is a term which only has a single, universal meaning in every context, and of course there are no active idelogical conflicts there.
 
  
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