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Practicing Truth

 
 
Saturn's nod
15:40 / 15.06.07
This was suggested a while ago in the Stupid Magic Questions thread, and I'd like to discuss it with others. It might be the practice I manage to keep up most faithfully, that I try to speak and write only the truth. I put a lot of value on it and I don't entirely understand why it is so important to me.

I understand truth as a virtue: that is, as a practice which I need to put effort into. I see it as a skill and a collaboration. It usually delights me to attempt another iteration towards accounting for my perceptions with greater accuracy, and I think that's only useful in a community where there's enough attention directed towards listening and understanding, so it influences the way I select friends.

Indulge me while I quote Ani Difranco: they say that the truth will set you free / but then so will a lie / it depends if you're trying to get to the promised land / or just trying to get by. Promised land, certainly - in a world as complicated, beautiful, and potentially confusing and overwhelming as the one I live in, it seems that as a baseline in honouring my fellow creatures I can at least hold a commitment to accurately accounting for my perceptions. It might even be that practicing the truth will change the world: my accurate feedback to the larger system might allow more appropriate responses to arise.

It's illuminating for me to observe myself in this practice: if I am tempted to lie or misrepresent, or if I realise I have done so, it seems it's always an opportunity for me to learn about myself. What fear had I given power over me, that I was tempted or willing to forsake truth for it? Since I feel like I suffer from a greater than average number of fears, an opportunity to see one acting on me and to overcome it is something to celebrate.

So, how about you? Does truth-telling have an important role in your practice? If so, why? What do you get out of it? If not - why?
 
 
*
16:02 / 15.06.07
I think that when I am practicing truthfulness more rigorously, I'm better able to perceive the truth. I have an ability to talk myself into believing my lies that I think is pretty common, and unfortunately, like many people, I lie fairly regularly. I make up stories to myself about how and why things might have happened when I don't actually know, instead of trying to find out the truth. In personal relationships in the past, I have been known to tell people what they wanted to hear rather than what I truly felt, during one period leading to such confusion on my part that I honestly couldn't distinguish sensing attraction from another person and feeling attraction to that person. There have been times when I could hardly see past the end of my own nose in terms of magical/mundane cause and effect, and motivations both my own and other people's. Don't even get me started about my divination practice.

I'm a little better now but I have a long way to go. My partner and I practice radical honesty with one another, and I'm gradually letting that practice inform other areas of my life. I will not say that I have resolved not to lie to myself or others anymore, but I'm much closer now than I was.
 
 
Quantum
16:58 / 15.06.07
I lie in the sense of white lies (tact) or exaggeration for story purposes or whatever, but I was raised by my mother to be brutally honest and it's a tricky habit to break. Which is a pain, because liars prosper in our modern world I notice.
For example, I had a job interview this morning and was tactfully truthful, instead of spouting what they wanted to hear (e.g. 'What motivates you?' 'Helping people, overcoming challenges, learning new skills' when what I should have said was 'Money' as it's a sales role) which unfortunately probably cost me the position (dammit). If I'd just played the role they wanted me to, which isn't even lying really, I'd be much more likely to have a new well paid job.
My perspective? Honesty is nice and a good habit most of the time, but a habit I'm trying to break out of.
 
 
Ticker
17:39 / 15.06.07
Excellent and useful thread thank ya, SN.

I'm sitting with it as less about tangible verifiable things and more about the power of the Word as Holy. It's about a mindfulness of communication written or spoken and how it shapes reality. I think Zippy's experiences outline a bit of this when he mentions how it affected his sense of reality. In Quantum's I read a subtext of how what he speaks changes his manifestation in the world.

From my POV to speak a thing is to make it be. That's why we lie isn't it? To make something more comfortable happen rather than the less comfortable, to ease or win an advantage or to hide something painful.

As I have spent the last month or so really hyper aware of when I lie and really trying not to, I find the only ones left are around revealing myself as foolish, petty, or mean.
To give an example I was talking to my spouse and I made an offhand passive aggressive bitter comment about one of our friends. My spouse caught the tone and questioned me about my bitterness and I, feeling guilty, played it off as a misunderstanding over what I had said. I didn't want to be the person who was hurt and being bitchy so when given a moment to rewrite my words I did. In doing so I lost the chance to have my spouse aid me with my discomfort, and instead of treating the injury I buried it a bit deeper.

I'm in the process of accepting to what degree I create and shape my reality. Part of that for me is to treat my participation with greater care. If I misrepresent something to someone and they accept it, they then may make decisions based on it. Building houses on sand as it were. I'm not in the bridge selling business but I am in the business of wanting to be believed when I communicate.

Magically undertaking this is quite a heavy bit of self transformation and I've been building a ritual to formally make it a part of my life. It's a form of sincerity and from my POV leads to being able to lay claim to what is truly mine. In wedding my words to my actions there ceases to be the fear of being found out as less or wanting. My honesty with others leads to greater self awareness and the confidence to stand before my Gods and Beloved Dead with what I think is accountability.
 
 
shockoftheother
17:42 / 15.06.07
I find the practice of truthfulness often highlights ethical conflicts and helps demonstrate the power of words to shape the universe, far more than any results obtained from lying ever do. In particular, I find myself increasingly keeping my counsel in situations where the outcome of truthtelling would be purely destructive. The most positive outcome of trying to remain truthful is in terms of self-expectation, and I find myself much more heavily invested in my goals because of it.

Though I'd say the practice of honesty with oneself is desirable, it can certainly be debilitating, especially if expectation and reality are considerably distant. Nevertheless, I think it can point out the path needed to become the person you *want* to be, or point up how the person you'd like to be is unrealistic or impossible, and both of those things are helpful.

On a magical level, one might well point out that the ability to lie to others is not very far from lying to oneself, and all sorts of unpleasant things happen as a consequence of that. In order to change a situation, some sort of understanding of what's actually wrong is needed, and all the sigils in the world don't really help with that. If your words don't mean anything, why should your magic words mean anything either?
 
 
Quantum
17:55 / 15.06.07
I think that when I am practicing truthfulness more rigorously, I'm better able to perceive the truth Zippy

Weirdly, I find the opposite- I am *more* easily fooled when being honest, and spot deception more easily when feeling devious.
I think that's because when Zippy is practicing truthfulness he means consciously, and I am more conscious of lying when I'm trying to lie (although I feel I lie to myself much more than Zippy appears to!). My honesty is more habitual than intentional, and I think it's easier to spot dishonesty when you're consciously trying to be more or less honest than usual.
 
 
Ticker
18:04 / 15.06.07
I think it's easier to spot dishonesty when you're consciously trying to be more or less honest than usual.

when thinking like a perp?

In order to change a situation, some sort of understanding of what's actually wrong is needed, and all the sigils in the world don't really help with that. If your words don't mean anything, why should your magic words mean anything either?

Right on. I think that's a big part of my pursuit of Truthfulness to make my words mean more and so to make my magic words mean more as well. If the price is meaning what I say, well that would seem to be reasonable.
 
 
shockoftheother
18:22 / 15.06.07
I think it's probably good to remember that truthfulness, even and especially truthfulness with oneself really needs to go hand-in-hand with comapssion. There's a tendency I know I've observed in myself to head in the direction of merciless ascetism by pointing the withering glance of 'cold scientific objectivity' at oneself and dismiss compassion as something that just gets in the way. That doesn't really get me anywhere productive, except possibly quivering at the spectacle of my ineptitude. Realisation that failure to live up to one's ideals is inevitable and even necessary for understanding why they're goals is probably a mark of spiritual maturity.

I think there is room for intense interrogation of truthfulness at the fundamental levels of the personality, but I think it always takes the form of an ordeal, and necessarily one of the most psychologically risky and potentially destabilising. Not a pleasant place to have to visit, certainly.
 
 
Quantum
18:31 / 15.06.07
hand-in-hand with compassion

Yeah. I was just going to post that it's easy to be too hard on oneself about it. Sometimes I find I have to say 'Ooh actually, that might be an exaggeration/lie, it was more like X' after telling a tall story, but it's no big deal.
 
 
Saturn's nod
20:27 / 15.06.07
Wow, interesting thoughts.

I think there is room for intense interrogation of truthfulness at the fundamental levels of the personality, but I think it always takes the form of an ordeal, and necessarily one of the most psychologically risky and potentially destabilising. Not a pleasant place to have to visit, certainly.

Sorry, don't get what you mean, please explain?
 
 
Quantum
20:33 / 15.06.07
Oh, sorry, disclaimer- I never, ever lie to someone while doing a Tarot reading (which is the bulk of my practice) so actually my magical practice demands total honesty, as contrasted with other parts of my life. Whoops.
 
 
shockoftheother
21:31 / 15.06.07
Sorry, don't get what you mean, please explain?

I'm thinking mostly of an experience I had while somewhat younger where a sustained and (in retrospect) abusive interrogation at the hands of my then boyfriend, which, while it left me a wreck for a good six months, was quite vital in learning about some internal disconnects where I had been repeatedly refusing to see my own complicity in particular patterns of behaviour going on around me. This is difficult territory, so I want to tread on it as lightly as possible, but I'm not sure that I could have had those insights without the trauma that accompanied them. In that moment of self-revelation (and I distinctly recall it as a moment) there is no compassion available.

But what I want to distinguish is the traumatic effect of that sort of revelation and the trauma that prompted that revelation. While I think such revelations are always in some respects traumatic, I don't think the way of reaching them ought or need ever be abusive, or in the context of power struggle. This is my concern with ethics and truth-telling. Learning when and how to speak is important. This is also at the root of a lot of my concerns about hate speech in other contexts.

In particular, in the years since, I've observed various sorts of bodywork that can prompt the same insights - from suspension to Reichian massage - in a context carefully controlled to give the individual the tools to deal with those insights in a way that isn't paralysing. I was saying above that, for me, there is room for that sort of intensive questioning of how truthful one is about one's motivations, and that the impetus for that sort of revelation is, in my experience, usually external (and often an accident). I'm not sure how well I'd react to the idea of anyone willingly undertaking that sort of verbal interrogation from another, as I think the risk for abuse is spectacularly high.
 
 
Ticker
23:52 / 15.06.07
I relate to what shock is saying in terms of cathartic vs. catalytic experiences. A catalytic experience is by definition one that cause change to occur rather than just an emotional response. In Ordeal work the aim is often to set this dynamic up to occur through ritual (and often massive body work including, as shock mentions, tools like suspension/massage) but it's quite difficult to ensure it will happen.
The parties involved build everything they can into the prep and ritual to ensure the scales are tipped in that direction but revelation, communion, and transformation are a difficult set of cats to herd.

In the book Sacred Pain Ariel Glucklich discusses various cultures approaches to setting up these rites. Almost in every case the participate is being lead to experience a Truth viscerally for themselves to then integrate into their consciousness. To reform themselves around something, an insight or shard of enlightenment. Usually it's self knowledge, perhaps something about the tribe, and even quite possible reality itself.

Glucklich discusses the steps we are familiar with where one is taken out of the everyday into a liminal space, held in liminal space for work, and returned to everyday space. The barriers between the everyday and the liminal numinous are often crossed by the use of either physical or mental pain/fear. It's one of the reasons abduction plays a key roll in initiation rites, it's the embodiment of being taken from the day to day and being scared. One is exposed to an experience, a truth if not a series of Truths, and sent back.

For some of us not lucky enough to formal puberty initiation rites the cataclysmic disillusionment we suffer at the end of our first major romantic relationship can serve in this capacity. Heartache is the supreme giver of Ordeals.
 
 
Katherine
10:35 / 04.07.07
So, how about you? Does truth-telling have an important role in your practice? If so, why? What do you get out of it? If not - why?

It has an important role in my life as well as my practice, if I can't tell the truth everyday then just how much faith should anyone (whether deity or person) have in my words when I make a promise or a oath? I try my best to make sure I tell the truth at all times but yes I slip and tell them but I consider it an on going project.

What do I get out of it personally is not to have to juggle untruths and lies which always seem to catch you up. Which create a web you can get caught in if you are not careful.
 
 
the Kite
10:52 / 16.07.07
I feel I'm merely adding to a consensus, but here goes ...

I feel weak when I lie. I feel strong when I speak the truth as I understand it at the time. I feel safest in silence.

I recognise that I cannot achieve full accuracy in words, and that my mind distorts incoming information anyway. Within those caveats, as a lifelong bad liar I prefer to speak the truth, if not the whole truth. Like others here, I experience my own words and deeds as powerful as a result. When I speak my magic wholeheartedly, Universe knows I ain't bluffin'.

I treat my truthfulness as work in progress and in need of vigilance.

I recognise in myself a certain pride in all this, and a glamour of 'telling the hard truths' which I treat with some suspicion. My experience of people who pride themselves on 'being brutally honest' suggests to me that they love the brutality more than the honesty. A big shout for compassion.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:09 / 16.07.07
I find this one really difficult, i have spent a great deal of my adult life thinking it was okay to lie to authority figures or just about anybody that thinks they can tell me what to do in anyway what so ever.

But of late i have learnt a very important lesson, the truth heals, it may seem uncompassionate to oneself and others to speak truth which is why i think being truthful has to be practiced with oneself before it is spoken to others, and then there maybe things that others will never be ready to hear or understand.

I have found that the truth expresses itself best as an action or a form of behaviour, the truth for me seems to be expressed in how i relate and behave to other people.

The consistency of the mentality i contain is both a product of fact and fiction, because i have for a longtime learnt a process of mixing the too as a survival strategy. Its the truth of experience thats important as i see it, which is an individual truth.

If i lived in a society and community that was truthful towards me and my experiences of life i believe i would be more forth coming with the truth of myself in my daily life. As it stands i see a society that feeds me and others lies, that isnt an excuse, but a reality that lying is part of survival in a culture that thrives on presenting lies and half truthes to the people that belong to it.

When a community is willing and open to accept the truth of all aspects of its own formation and creation i would be more than willing to engage with a community on such terms, but currently where i am living that is not the case.

So i am truthful about myself where i have the trust and understanding to be, and i lie where others are lying to me or trying to make unfair use of me and my time.

If more truth was coming into me, more would be coming out verbally. That said i am true in my own being to myself and my own experience, as best i can be. When i lie in my own inner experience i generally find bad work built on illusions, collapses, especially with regards to a magical practice.
 
 
Summerwind
19:38 / 16.07.07
First of all, this is my first post (other than the introductions thread) and I’m still getting a feel for this community so if I say something against the community rules (the etiquette thread helped) I apologize.

Now on to the actual post…

It seems like we’re talking about two different (occasionally overlapping) experiences here: truth, and Truth.

Small t (St from now on) truth is the internal and external dialogue we have in our daily actions, conversations with loved ones, ourselves, coworkers etc.
Big T (BT) Truth is about Satori, about profound realizations, about Life, the Universe, and Everything. Both are important to my practice in different ways.

As someone who works magic, especially if you work with other beings, getting in the habit of telling St truth is a necessary safety precaution.

There are many definitions of magic but I’ll use Mr. Crowley’s in this case
"The science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will."

If you don’t understand your own will, or are severely conflicted, the change you are trying to make will happen unpredictably at best, or disastrously, at worst. So if you ever want to do workings successfully and repeatably you need be telling the truth to yourself, if only during the course of the working. I’m not saying that magicians don’t lie (which is blatantly false) just that if you want to do a working and get similar results every time you need to understand your motivations, intentions, etc.

If you’re working in concert with others you need to be sure that everyone is telling the truth so that your working can be done efficiently. If you are doing a group working to bring happiness and success to your group and member A defines happiness as eating babies and doesn’t tell anyone you might end up with results you don’t expect.

Telling the truth in your words is perhaps the most important in dealing with non-humans. Many other beings deal with truth much more clearly than humans, their concepts of truth/falsehood are way more black/white than ours. Of course the opposite can also be true, but personally I’ve found that creatures that expect the truth get way more upset if you lie to them than if you tell the truth to a being that expects you to lie.

Those are three reasons why I try and and tell St truth as much as possible in my magical practice. Personally I have a very hard time telling the truth, lying comes naturally to me. However, years ago I realized that I couldn’t accomplish the tasks that I need to if I continued to lie, so since then I’ve worked (and continue to work) hard at trying to lie as little as possible.

Regarding that, what Wolfangel888 posted resonates with me. I feel that, if I lie less, my life becomes clearer, less cluttered with baggage, and I can focus more on what I want to do and less on some pretend world that I’ve created through falsehoods.

BT truth is hard to find.
I’d say that the hardest kind of knowledge to acquire is BT truth about oneself; it’s also the most worthwhile.
I find that the more BT truth I learn the better my life gets. Not that life is easy (often it gets harder after a new BT truth), but once I break on through to the other side of a Truth I feel stronger, more able to accomplish my goals. When I can manage (after much painful effort) to get a crumb of BT truth it can come from anywhere. It tends to come during altered states i.e. during a seriously physically/emotionally painful ordeal, contemplation/trance work, and intense physical exercise.
BT truth is also hard to discuss ‘cus it’s mostly ineffable.

BTW The description below is a beautiful summery of an experience, thanks XK, I’ll have to pick up that book.

To reform themselves round something, an insight or shard of enlightenment. Usually it's self-knowledge, perhaps something about the tribe, and even quite possible reality itself.

Summerwind
 
  
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