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Comparison of Art and Music periods 2: Classical and Romantic

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:32 / 04.02.02
Before we go into the Classical stuff, it should be noted that something big happened between the Barouqe and Classical periods that really helped change the art scene, albeit at the cost of several hundred lives. Yes folks, its the French Revolution. The lower class eventually got sick of the Aristocracy screwing them, so they decided to kill most of them and start over.

This meant, among other things, that Roccoco was out. It's extreme detail, finery and extravagence reminded everyone of the upper class, so it was time for something different. People went back to Roman and Greek style stuff, possibly because with all the political turmoil, people wanted to be reminded of (in their mind) nice, stable governments that worked.
In arcitecture, this meant no more Corinthian columns. It's Ionic or Dorian or nothing, kids. Arches were not pointed anymore; they got more rounded and dome-like. Evidence of the popularity of Roman and Greek styles can be seen in America, where most of the government buildings in the early 19th century were built with these styles in mind.

The literature was popular in America, too. In the south, a sort of aristocracy was developing among the European schooled upper class, who brought back things like the Oddessy and the Illiad, which were very popular among the small portion of the southern population that could read. Oddly enough, names like "Virgil" and "Homer" were popular in the lower classes, and you can still find old southern families that name their first born son Virgil, despite them not knowing where the name came from.

In art, Greek and Roman meant more of a "grand" feeling to paintings and sculpture, more "noble" kind of themes. Everyday stuff was not as popular, and in my humble opinion, neither was subtlety. I can't name many artists from this period, so I would appreciate some help here.

In music, Classical and Romantic kind of run toghether. The piano had recently been invented, which meant more stuff was being written for it. Other instruments were being improved also, which began a different taste in the music. Unlike the harpsichord it replaced, with the piano the volume and dynamics were wholly up to the musician, which was something new. Thus, the music began to feel more...charged, I suppose. The kind of feeling you would expect from someone who has just been given the ability to control volume and dynamics for the first time. Decrescendos and Crescendos appeared.

Beethoven was doing his thing here, as was Haydn. Bach's seven or so sons were big too, but their popularity didn't last far after the 19th century as far as the common man went. Later on, towards the Romantic period, Moztart made his appearance along with Tchaicovsky (I'll correct the spelling later). With these two, their personal lives were even more apparent in their writing than the earlier composers (from our standpoint, as we know more about them now). Tchaicovsky was homosexual, and too frightened to tell anyone. A lot of his works were written specifically to one of his lovers. To see what Moztart was going through, go find the movie "Amadeaus". It's good, I promise. In Spain, classical guitar works, which had been developing a flavor all it's own, was becoming more popular also.
In the early 19th century, a guy named Schoenberg was developing a form of music that paid no attention to key or harmony of anykind. He predicted that his form would surpass the previous styles, and was dead wrong. No one could stand his stuff.

Interesting note: Schoenberg's form can be found in classic Sci-fi thrillers. Think of that sound of violin strings being pluked or srummed in no particular key very rapidly along with the picture of, say, a million giant spiders crawling around.

This period was the last time popular music would reamain in a single style.

Next up: Impressionism! Clash between two schools of art, and music starts splintering.

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the Zen bastard ]

[ 04-02-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the Zen bastard ]
 
 
lentil
14:13 / 05.02.02
Poussin was working before the French revolution but was probably responsible for their return to Classicism. There's an essay on this here. Maybe the use of Classical styles post - revolution was facilitated by the fact that it was a burgeoning aesthetic prior to it?

another painter I was thinking might be useful is Fragonard, very decorative, escapist, with a similar campy classicism to poussin's. unsure of dates though, i'll try to look something up tomorrow.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:30 / 05.02.02
... and Boucher. Didn't like nature because it was 'too green and badly lit' (sorry, I love that, trot it out every chance I get)... though mind you, I would have lumped both of them in with Watteau as Rococo...

Johnny, I agree with Lentilsky here; I think you're mistaken in seeing the French Revolution as the turning point between Baroque/Rococo and Classicism (or neo-classicism, in architecture and art) in the visual arts because the movement had started a long time before that. In England, for example, an interest in neo-classical architectural forms had been growing since the Palladian movement of the early C18, and really took off in the 1760s. (Poussin died in 1665, so is probably mostly valuable as a reference for French artists during the Revolution & the Directoire).

What I think you see as an expression of the will of the people - the growth in art which was supposed to have some 'public' virtue - David's paitings in the Louvre, history painting in general, civic architecture - *is* an expression of the ideal of civic virtue, & of a virtuous polity - BUT I think it is very much the product of aristocratic thinking - it's not 'the people' asking for these things (and I have always thought that it was a way of appearing to transfer the locus of artistic power while in reality keeping it in the same place).

...similarly with the use of the classic authors in America - a long-standing theme in American politics, going right back to Harringtonian ideas & the Founding Fathers (but I am really very unfamiliar with American history, so bow to your superior here...)

(oh, and - hate to say this, boyo, but - if you're thinking of Arnold Schoenberg, he's 1874-1951)
 
 
grant
14:37 / 05.02.02
I'd like to echo that by saying my hunch always was that Romantic painting followed the French Revolution the way surrealism followed WWI.
Wreck of the Medusa, violence, all that.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:39 / 05.02.02
Ah. Thank you for the correction. See, this is what I was after...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:19 / 06.02.02
What, lots of nitpicking?



I think I agree with you, grant... there's definitely a connexion with literary movements around the same period. Will think & return...
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
11:31 / 06.02.02
I wouldn't have the smarts to comment on the music and art stufdf, but I would humbly point out that the Corinthian column was developed in Greece and developed into the Roman Corinthian order by, well, the Romans. So a sudden aversion to Acanthus leaves may not be entirely atrributable to a Classicising impulse...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:45 / 06.02.02
Actually, Johnny, sorry, more nitpicking, but Tchaikovsky and Mozart were not contemporaneous either... Mozart is second half C18, Tchaikovsky second half C19... and whereas IMO Mozart is pretty definitively classical, Tchaikovsky is pretty definitively romantic. Not that this substantially alters your theory, but, y'know... I'm a pedant.

Also, further to Haus's point about Corinthian columns - I think that what you're thinking of when you talk about architecture is Neo-classicism rather than classicism per se - Neo-classicism (briefly), begins second half C18, is bsically an attempt to return to a 'purer' form of classical architecture (often based on Greek antiquities and temples, rather than on pattern-books and Renaissance interpretations of classical motifs). There was a definite preference for Greek style over Roman, which is noticeable in capitals among other places. It's sort of a search for the sublime... which is where the romanticism bit comes in, I suppose. & that's where your point about noble themes and 'grand' feeling fits too.
 
 
grant
16:40 / 06.02.02
I wonder - in Classical music (Mozart) there seems to be an emphasis on music with a clear "use," either as supporting an external drama (opera, ballet) or the Mass (requiems and so on). Even the symphonies borrow elements from these things (although I suppose use of easily recognizable leit motifs goes back to the Baroque - had a professor illustrate this with a piece he called "The Missa Batman").

Anyway, the Romantic stuff (I'm thinking Beethoven and Dvorzak) seems to include its *own* narrative, in the sense of "program music" - Beethoven's 5th telling the story of a thunderstorm in the country, Dvorzak's New World Symphony being a condensed travelogue.

Anything to this?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:27 / 06.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
Actually, Johnny, sorry, more nitpicking, but Tchaikovsky and Mozart were not contemporaneous either... Mozart is second half C18, Tchaikovsky second half C19... and whereas IMO Mozart is pretty definitively classical, Tchaikovsky is pretty definitively romantic. Not that this substantially alters your theory, but, y'know... I'm a pedant.


Dammit, I knew I had my dates messed up. Ah, christ. I'm even getting schooled on music...how embarrassing. I promise I have at least a limited knowledge of what I'm talking about. Please believe me...

quote:Also, further to Haus's point about Corinthian columns - I think that what you're thinking of when you talk about architecture is Neo-classicism rather than classicism per se - Neo-classicism (briefly), begins second half C18, is bsically an attempt to return to a 'purer' form of classical architecture (often based on Greek antiquities and temples, rather than on pattern-books and Renaissance interpretations of classical motifs). There was a definite preference for Greek style over Roman, which is noticeable in capitals among other places. It's sort of a search for the sublime... which is where the romanticism bit comes in, I suppose. & that's where your point about noble themes and 'grand' feeling fits too.


Good! Good! Perfect! Filling gaps in my brain. Good deal.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:30 / 06.02.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
I wonder - in Classical music (Mozart) there seems to be an emphasis on music with a clear "use," either as supporting an external drama (opera, ballet) or the Mass (requiems and so on). Even the symphonies borrow elements from these things (although I suppose use of easily recognizable leit motifs goes back to the Baroque - had a professor illustrate this with a piece he called "The Missa Batman").

Anyway, the Romantic stuff (I'm thinking Beethoven and Dvorzak) seems to include its *own* narrative, in the sense of "program music" - Beethoven's 5th telling the story of a thunderstorm in the country, Dvorzak's New World Symphony being a condensed travelogue.

Anything to this?


Interesting question. I'll get back to this tommorrow.
 
  
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