BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Rihanna

 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:26 / 14.06.07
1)Here's an informative article about the wonderful Rihanna from Barbados, quickly shaping up to be my favourite dancehall influenced singer (I use that term as I'm not sure where she fits genre wise) if not one of my favourite people generally.

2)There seems to have been something important and theoretical said about her on somebody's blog. I'm not sure what, however, and would be glad to have it explained.

3)Fluxblog is right: a cold, perhaps machine-like voice, a la Goldfrapp, sort of, in a good way. In a great way.

I like Rihanna and so do you.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:32 / 14.06.07
Oh and here is Flux writing about Rihanna
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:23 / 15.06.07
Bless you for starting this thread.

While I have to give him mad props for being the reason I heard the song in the first place, I don't really agree with Matthew about the whole soulless/nihilistic/cold thing where 'Lemme Get That' is concerned. Maybe I'm just less bothered by unabashed materialism (we're all materialists more or less, it's just some of us are more aware and open about it than others), but there seems to me to be a playfulness to the song - it's hard not to see the opening line "I got a house but I need new furniture" as anything other than deliberately funny - it's too brazenly cheeky and inventive to be anything else, I think.

Then there's the fact that the chorus goes:

"The truth is I would love you the same
But why complain, you buying Gucci babe"


Which makes it pretty clear that the fact that the guy in question spends money on her is nice, but not the reason she's with him. In fact Rihanna is explictly saying she'd be with him even if he was poor, which makes 'Lemme Get That' a noticeably less cynical and self-serving song than, say, 'Bills Bills Bills'. She's positioning real love as an exception to an otherwise all-encompassing materialistic worldview:

"Nothing is free in this world
Unless my love is your love"


It's definitely one of my songs of my moment, however one interprets it. I was going to post about it in one of those threads where people talk about individual songs, but I'm happier to have this one, especially as I'm keen to here the album.

(I also think the line "Know you wanna bite that / Uh huh yeah right there" and its delibery counts as one of the hottest moments in pop this year. Yowza!)
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:29 / 15.06.07
Ahh, now see, I thought the line ran:

"The truth is all you boys the same
But why complain, you buying Gucci babe"

And maybe others did as well, which might explain the confusion.

Rihanna is someone I respect immensely for doing very well in a very vicious industry from a very young age - she's younger than me, and started out when she was sixteen or so, but has always seemed like a self-possessed, adult artist, much more grown up than someone like Fiddy or G*r*rd W*y.

I'll tell you who else she reminds me of, in a very roundabout way - Nico. It's something to do with the very physical voice, or the treatment of the voice on the record - I can't quite work it out.
 
 
Essential Dazzler
11:49 / 15.06.07
I'm really enjoying Good Girl Gone Bad minus the Ballads.

I love the relentless pace and power of tracks like Breakin' dishes and Shut Up and Drive.

Do her previous albums have a similar sound?
 
 
Lugue
21:51 / 15.06.07
I don't know. About the album, I mean. Those ballads... it's not just that I find them bad; it's that they ruin any chance the album has of consistency, which is hard from the get-go for having two essential song blocks (1-5, 7-9) that are pretty different between themselves, the second one much more a throwback to her previous sound (or maybe just image; I'm not entirely making sense of how I take it).

Some nice stuff, though, sure. The single, in particular. People keep going on about how her voice "doesn't fit" by being too cold, either as a compliment or as a criticism; to me she just sounds sure to the point of icy precision, her certainty so strong it's untainted by histrionics. A reassuring control-freak. Question Existing too, despite the lyrics, though I think it's one of the few instances where she's truly expressive in a straightforward way (and her almost repulsive tone in the speaking bit!)... Breakin' Dishes is fun for her performance - "Marsh-mel-lows", "Is he cheatin'/Man I dunno.../I'm looking round for something else to throw"). "Shup Up And Drive", "Don't Stop The Music" and "Push Up On Me" I'm... uncertain about, though when the MJ sample kicks in on DSTM, I do get a little ass-shakish.

And well, the image is just about perfect, that much is unquestionable. Nothing better to do to someone with such a dead register than strip her away of immediacy and amicabilaty and turn her into some spectacular popgothbot.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:00 / 10.09.07


She has won the MTV music video awards.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:05 / 11.09.07
Surely Britney won the VMAs? One of the major papers in Sydney had 'Britney's back' as it's front page headline yesterday.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:06 / 11.09.07
Off this topic, but in the UK at least, and I believe in quite a considerable section of the US media, Britney's VMA performance has been the promt for the most baleful assault of double-standard hypocritical misogyny I've seen in a while...
 
 
Tsuga
23:41 / 11.09.07
I guess that you're talking about all of the "flabby"-type comments I've been hearing, which is the typical shit you know people are going to say, rather than just focusing on her lackluster, flaccid performance, which is fair game, though really why anyone gives a shit is beyond me.
Somewhat related and a bit more on-topic, thinking I hadn't heard Rihanna I went looking on youtube, and found "Umbrella", and realized I had seen it. Related because I find it also typical and kind of sad that yet again, whether or not she is talented, her sex appeal—and the exploitation of that— is what will most likely get her the farthest. Is that fair to say? At least she has a pretty good voice.
 
 
Tsuga
23:47 / 11.09.07
Sorry, if it's not clear: If people want to criticize the poor girl for a crappy performance, I think that's fair enough though I don't think it's really worth talking about. personally. When people just start making cruel comments about the way she looks because she's not...whatever...is vile and indicative of so many things that are wrong.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:06 / 12.09.07
Is criticising Britney grounds for banning? Because I think it should be.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:55 / 12.09.07
Actually, I don't think the response to Britney's VMA performance is anywhere near as clear cut as "criticising her body shape = bad, misogynistic" and "criticising her performance = fair game", Tsuga. The other things that have been singled out are things like she seemed out of it on booze or drugs, that her performance was shambolic, that she didn't sing the right words to her song, and that the performance was too overtly sexualised. All things for which a male rock'n'roll star would be not only forgiven, but even lauded. I don't think any of this can be separated from the fact that much of the media condemnation of Britney in the last few years has revolved around the idea that she is the worst of all things, a bad mother - whereas of course male celebrities can simply disavow their children and escape censure.

Let's not even get into the connotations of calling it a "flaccid" performance (as opposed to what?)...

Related because I find it also typical and kind of sad that yet again, whether or not she is talented, her sex appeal—and the exploitation of that— is what will most likely get her the farthest. Is that fair to say?

I don't know about "fair", but it's not very accurate. What you seem to be doing here is assuming that while you, Tsuga, are capable of noting that Rihanna has a good voice, the majority of people who will "get her far", presumably by buying her records, will do so because of her sex appeal. This seems a little odd, since aside from looking at the pictures on album artwork, any titillation that can be gained from buying a record would surely have to come from the music, and thus also be an extension of Rihanna's voice and talent.

This idea that sex appeal is more responsible for the success of female r&b artists than talent - and specifically that some kind of ethically/politically dubious sex appeal is responsible, i.e. "exploitation" - is one that is often invoked as if it were self-evident. It is standard operating procedure that the person making this observation both draws particular attention himself (or herself, theoretically, but not usually) to the physical appearance, dress and presence of the artist, and yet strongly chastises everybody else who is presumed to pay so much attention to those things.
 
 
Tsuga
10:06 / 12.09.07
Christ. This idea that sex appeal is more responsible for the success of female r&b artists than talent - and specifically that some kind of ethically/politically dubious sex appeal is responsible, i.e. "exploitation" - is one that is often invoked as if it were self-evident
I said nothing about r&b artists, though I think it's more common, though not exclusive, with female artists- that sexuality is commonly one of the main tools used to promote them, beyond their talent, sometimes despite it. I mean, it's human to do it, but I guess I'm saying it's sad how ubiquitous it is, whether or not you agree. Look, I'll try to be more thorough when I have time tonight, but I think you're inferring too much from my brief post (though it's my fault if it's too brief, sorry).
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:18 / 12.09.07
I said nothing about r&b artists

I never said you did. I said it's an idea that's often invoked. Hugs!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:05 / 12.09.07
Somewhat related and a bit more on-topic, thinking I hadn't heard Rihanna I went looking on youtube, and found "Umbrella", and realized I had seen it. Related because I find it also typical and kind of sad that yet again, whether or not she is talented, her sex appeal — and the exploitation of that — is what will most likely get her the farthest. Is that fair to say? At least she has a pretty good voice.

Some questions.

Is exploitation of a person's sex appeal the same as exploitation of the person? What if you exploit your own sex appeal (which I do as often as humanly possible, with hilarious Larry David-esque consequences)?

And is "sex appeal" truly separate from "talent"? Isn't physical prowess part of the talent of anyone who acts in a play or film, or anyone who makes popular music with a visual element (which means all popular music now, really, as it all comes with photos, performances, and videos)? I mean, the voice and the dance and the interview speech are all uses of the body.

To put it another way, if (to pick from the cannon) Mick Jagger had been a drooling, balding man in his 50s at the time when he first hit the spotlight, would he have been as talented at his job of being Mick Jagger? Weren't his youthfulness and "wildness", both non-musical, essential parts of his job? And would he have been as successful without them?

Because people often say "If Britney/Gwen/Rihanna/Madonna wasn't so good at being atttractive + other non-musical skills, she wouldn't have been successful", to which I say "Well, no, and neither would any successful performer, male or female, that you care to name, probably stretching right back to Opera, 16th century theater and Sophoclean drama, so getting at Britney etc for this is a bit pointless."

I'm not sure you were saying the first quote, mind.

If Rihanna (who as far as I know doesn't play the spoons) entered a spoon-playing contest where capacity with spoons was allegedly the only criteria for success, yet won just because of her appearance, that would be rather unfair on the other spooners. Yet the contest she enters - the wide, wide world of modern pop music - is very theatrical, is all about "being somebody", and this is usually a very, very attractive somebody. As long as it's under her control, her doing her best to "be" this somebody doesn't strike me as a bad thing.

Conversely, music which is supposed to be "all about the music" has all struck me as utterly terrible. I don't even want to name such acts on Rihanna's thread.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:07 / 12.09.07
To be precise, her doing her best to "be" this somebody and win.
 
 
Tsuga
23:02 / 12.09.07
I apologize, I really should realize that I don't have enough history or credentials talking about more serious issues here to have my comments taken, well, not at face value, which could be interpreted differently, but without suspicion. And making an offhanded comment about something potentially loaded is never a particularly good idea.
So. Allow me to elaborate. It bothered me hearing people talking about Britney Spears being fat more than anything else, or how she shouldn't be showing it, blah, blah & cetera. While males and females are often objectified, it is, in this culture, much more true with women (though men are fast catching up). And there is often a double-standard when it comes to what is acceptable in appearance between the two. I saw her performance, I'd agree with most of the consensus that it was a poor one(I used "flaccid", by the way, meaning limp and weak, really not anything else. Probably shouldn't have, but I like that word). But it's sad that she seems compelled to try so hard to stay edgy and sexy when it looks like she really doesn't want to, and then gets slammed for it on the basest level. Where I felt the subject of the Rihanna video became related is in the objectification part. I think the problem mostly comes in when talking about an individual, here Rihanna, rather than saying I am dismayed by objectification as a generality, the ways that sexuality are sometimes used and abused. Though this is, of course, a huge topic in itself, as Allecto pointed out, loving consensual self-exploitation or exploration. The lines seem to sometimes be very blurry between the public exploration of one's own sexuality and either possible or implicit societal patterns of oppression, and often destructive power structures, expressed in these actions (god what a bulky sentence). And of course people often push and play with those power structures on purpose when performing, or in their daily lives.
And. People generally considered "attractive" are more commonly successful, as it has been for a long time, and probably isn't going to change anytime soon. Is that good or bad? I don't know. Both, maybe- but it just is, in the meantime. Attractive people are just as often talented as anyone else, and they shouldn't be penalized for being attractive, but they will succeed more often because of it. But it's not necessarily attractiveness that I'm talking about so much as what's around it. I find it also typical and kind of sad that yet again, whether or not she is talented, her sex appeal—and the exploitation of that— is what will most likely get her the farthest. I still think that's kind of true, but maybe not a fair way to frame it; without talent she probably wouldn't get nearly as far and she should get credit for it. And I suppose, credit for skillfully using her sexuality as well.
I think many of the things that are generally deemed "sexy" or "attractive" are at least somewhat influenced by societal norms and are self-perpetuating. What I don't like is the narrowness sometimes of the self-perpetuating parts. If Rihanna is going to be sexy in a video, of course she's going to wear these particular types of outfits, because that's what's expected, really. She's absolutely entitled to do it, and maybe she's having a fucking ball doing it, and she is made of win and all that, and good for her. I don't condemn her for it. It's not that she is doing anything wrong, really. I guess I'm just bitching about the structure around all of it that is so limiting to everyone, to a certain extent. How objectification is so intrinsic in culture, and so ultimately inextricable from it. But that is life, that's the way it always is, so really why am I bitching? I think if people want to change things like that, all they can do is just do bits to steer things a tiny bit when they can, and hope they're doing the right thing. At least, that's my opinion. But I don't know that I'm right, or right-thinking, so feel free to address what you don't like that I'm saying, I'll try to explain or reflect on it.
Anyway, that's kind of what I was talking about. Shouldn't expect you to take that away from a short post about a video, though.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:01 / 13.09.07
I apologize, I really should realize that I don't have enough history or credentials talking about more serious issues here to have my comments taken, well, not at face value, which could be interpreted differently, but without suspicion. And making an offhanded comment about something potentially loaded is never a particularly good idea.

Apologies also if we pounced. It's not your history that's the deal, it's the history of other people who said somewhat similar things but weren't up for discussion, and in fact swore.

I think many of the things that are generally deemed "sexy" or "attractive" are at least somewhat influenced by societal norms and are self-perpetuating. What I don't like is the narrowness sometimes of the self-perpetuating parts. If Rihanna is going to be sexy in a video, of course she's going to wear these particular types of outfits, because that's what's expected, really.

Sure, the flip-side of the stuff I was saying is that it can all be part of the enforcement of the various accepted "norms" (thin-ness, etc). That's a more than worthwhile thing to be concerned about.

It's not that she is doing anything wrong, really. I guess I'm just bitching about the structure around all of it that is so limiting to everyone, to a certain extent.

Again, true - but I think what Fly might point out here is that when people coast around looking for symbols of this undoubtably nasty structure, it tends to be that white critics - or anyone with a mainstream voice - choose rappers or r & b sensations ("They only care about bling, not values"/"Women are exploited"/"This encourages violence") and make out that they're worse than, say, Doherty; which biased criticism (biased in that it focusses on the Other, and usually on, if not disadvantaged performers, then performers from disadvantaged backgrounds) only keeps the nasty structure in place.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:33 / 13.09.07
Surely Britney won the VMAs? One of the major papers in Sydney had 'Britney's back' as it's front page headline yesterday.

Is everything upside-down on the bottom half of the planet? She pretty much hammered in the last nail for her career, and it was mainly because she was so incredibly disengaged from her own performance. She just slept through it, totally amateurish.
 
 
Jackie Susann
21:04 / 16.09.07
I think I may have just misinterpreted the cover, since this weeks tabloids are all 'I am a fat pig' histrionics. Britney, ignore them, you looked great!
 
 
Lugue
21:18 / 16.09.07
Oy! Out with the old, in with the new! Back to the ella, rotters!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:57 / 16.09.07
This guy is OTM.
 
 
ibis the being
22:55 / 17.09.07
I really miss the reggae influence on Good Girl Gone Bad... wherever it shows up ("Lemme Get That") I'm a little more interested, and of course "Umbrella" is irresistabe, but I won't be buying this album. "Don't Stop the Music" and "Push up on Me" are frankly terrible, just shitty club tracks with cheesy beats. "Shut up and Drive" is okay but if I heard it out of context I would swear up and down it was a Res track... in "Breakin' Dishes" she also sounds a lot like Res. I'll take A Girl Like Me over this album any day.

While I think the conversation that's going on about image and sex in music is interesting, I'm not sure it's best suited to a thread about Rihanna. I don't see why she's 'about' a sexy image any more than any other pop/r&b artist out there... are Beyonce, Ciara, Cassie, Fergie, or what's-her-name from the Pussycat Dolls "all about the music?" In fact I often find her sex-appeal factor a little more muted than that of some other female pop artists... she doesn't really dance, and she has a fairly unexpressive face in her videos most of the time.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:40 / 20.09.07
Petey: "Actually, I don't think the response to Britney's VMA performance is anywhere near as clear cut as "criticising her body shape = bad, misogynistic" and "criticising her performance = fair game", Tsuga. The other things that have been singled out are things like she seemed out of it on booze or drugs, that her performance was shambolic, that she didn't sing the right words to her song, and that the performance was too overtly sexualised. All things for which a male rock'n'roll star would be not only forgiven, but even lauded. I don't think any of this can be separated from the fact that much of the media condemnation of Britney in the last few years has revolved around the idea that she is the worst of all things, a bad mother - whereas of course male celebrities can simply disavow their children and escape censure."

Just to say, I can't think of any male rock n' roll star who's ever been lauded for giving a poor performance. The same signifiers of authenticity that are applied to rock n' roll music are still consistently applied to pop music, probably because they come from the same root, rather than because they actually apply. Being able to give a great live performance despite being fucked up (sometimes because of being fucked up) is probably in the top three when it comes to those signifiers, male or female. I know Ed Van Halen got it in the neck from fans and the media for being apparently too drunk to perform properly in several shows on their last tour, as did whats-his-face from Creed, who was fired for it. Pete Doherty recently also endured serious criticism for being a complete mess at Live8, did he not?

Actually, tell a lie - Shane MacGowan doesn't get criticised for his frequent no-shows, being a shambles on stage, forgetting the words, slurring and spitting at the crowd, or wandering offstage mid-song. That's less to do with his gender and more to do with the fact that his audience has gotten used to it the last 25 years...
 
  
Add Your Reply