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Aching to Be An Artist

 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
11:19 / 13.06.07
See here.

After reading an article in Poets and Writers Magazine about a writer juggling the responsibilities of fatherhood with being a literary novelist, I found myself juggling a particular phrase around in my head for a while.

In the article, said chap says that being a Dad means he spends a lot less time 'aching to be an artist' and a lot more time actually sitting down and writing. His motivation is simply 'baby needs new shoes', and art comes a lot more easily when he doesn't have the 'luxury' of agonising over every word.

So this thread is a general sit-down chat about the mythos of creativity, bohemia, writer's block and everything else that goes into the idealised perception of what it's like to make shit up in any media for the edification, enlightenment, entertainment or horrifying of other people.

I'm not going to post specific 'questions to consider', because I'd like to keep it a little more freeform than that.

Also, mods, I thought of posting this in Head Shop, but thought it might catch the eye of more people who wanted to contribute over here. Feel free to move if people believe it's more appropriate over there.
 
 
Ex
14:20 / 13.06.07
I find self-aggrandisation fun and easy, so I've got a personal rule about not talking about anything as 'my novel' until I've got at least 20,000 words of it written. Hard to stick to, because people ask me how my writing's going and it's really picky to keep insisting that it's not my novel, it's just something I'm planning at the moment.

Anyway, I find writing fast quite easy (no idea if it's effective or not - nothing fictional properly published) so I always thought that if I really want to be smug about Being A Writer, then I can bloody well spend a month hammering out the first bit of something.

However, this attempt to prevent premature smugness may be on the ropes, for me. The last long project I worked on I spotted some large flaws in afterwards, and the rewriting was a nightmare. So I may have to adjust my sense of which means more in terms of Being A Proper Writer - planning properly or getting the writing done.

I'm interested to know about other people's experiences of writer's block - I find that I can usually write fluently, but sometimes get sidetracked down really predictable alleyways and write toss, which may be an equivalent. I hit conceptual barriers and plot holes more often than I actually can't write, which seems less dramatic to me. There isn't that cinematic montage of the clenched fist, the bin of scrumpled paper.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
15:20 / 13.06.07
A number of things stumped me after I attempted a novel.

1. It became a repository for ALL my ideas at once, which was a very silly thing to do because then I had to make them all significant and useful in some way to the plot and it became almost impossible to do this without new ideas suddenly bursting into being and demanding recomplication and bedding in. There were at least 6 clever, major ideas which could have been stripped out, all of them clashing with each other.

2. Even after I worked out the plot arc I had this total fear round about 3/4 of the way through that the ending was way too fanciful (although it was a bloody clever ending) and I had to re-write the beginning to make it seem more plausible. This caused problems.

3. I'm considerably better at writing amusing dialogue and complex, involving descriptions of things and developing characters and fantastic environments than I am at making half-way tangible plots happen. I've got this sort of "plots have to be clever" virus so insidiously wound into my writing machine that it can't put characters doing fairly ordinary, necessary things down on paper (or screen) that they have to do in order for them to be able to do the next big plot thing without it feeling like appallingly badly thought-through writing. Every second major event has to be "significant" or some sort of clever plot twist that nobody could have thought of, yet simultaneously rings spookily true. Which is difficult to do.

4. My novel, all of it, which I had been working on for years, got Ate.

By my computer.

All of it.

In one gulp.

It never came back.

This made me so angry I resolved, for some time, never to provide the Fates with such an obvious target again. I have since recovered.



Does anyone else have any of these problems?
 
 
misterdomino.org
22:41 / 13.06.07
Oh man, I am so terribly sorry to hear about your dead novel, Sibelian. Perhaps it might reconcile things a bit if you thought of the whole thing as one very large sacrifice.

After attending quite a few years of art school, I can't be relied upon to say anything productive about 'Artists.' That's Art with a capital A. Symptoms include, but are not limited to: A low output of tangible, physical creations; a high output of obnoxious public behavior; a condescending attitude pertaining to forms of 'low' art i.e. comics, illustration, and other mediums requiring some degree of technical skill; a silly fixed expression worn on face thats looks as though said person has some putrid smell they cannot escape. They also tend to consider the critic's word as the Whole of the Law and strive for acceptance among the fine art world elite. You can often find them dropping the names of obscure artists and art theorists in some bizarre and obtuse form of unspoken competition. Upon reading up on said theorists, one can them find them reciting said theories, without any evidence of practical application of such ideas.

Apologies if this comes off as overly critical...it might very well be that I went to a unique school full of these rare specimens. Would love to hear other's reports on the matter.
 
 
Ilhuicamina
01:11 / 14.06.07
Ex: people ask me how my writing's going and it's really picky to keep insisting that it's not my novel, it's just something I'm planning at the moment.

Amen to that. I'm terrified of being cornered by people and asked "So, what's it about then?". (And this happens to me all the time, when well-meaning friends drag me out of my house and take me somewhere there are people I don't know, and said well-meaning friends introduce me as a guy who's writing a book. It must be the most interesting thing about me.) It's difficult to explain to strangers (or even to friends) that I'm new to this and afraid of 'doing it wrong' and don't really know what it's about even though I have nearly fifty thousand words to show for it. I get the impression -being a South Asian- that these people are expecting a certain style of book from me, a la Arundhati Roy or Shyam Selvadurai or Rushdie or Ondaatje or what have you, and it's so terribly hard to say, actually, I'm addicted to lowbrow genre fiction which is NOT going to include a multi-generation epic of Asian family life set against the background of war and ethnic strife, etc.

And The last long project I worked on I spotted some large flaws in afterwards, and the rewriting was a nightmare. So I may have to adjust my sense of which means more in terms of Being A Proper Writer - planning properly or getting the writing done.

Check. This is the part where I'm afraid of doing it wrong. Writing your first book is like your first time having sex, only a lot more drawn out and without the immediate feedback.

Writer's block: I'm yet to encounter the beast. My day job is demanding (lately I'm working fairly late every night) and my personal life is a mess for unrelated reasons, so for me the block is just having the space in my head to sit down and work. Actual time that I can spend writing is manna from heaven, and all that pent-up energy just comes roaring out. I suspect I'd have more trouble writing if I had more time to do it in. Heh.

Sibelian: losing the book to a computer crash is a nightmare. Terribly sorry. I'm glad that you've recovered from the shock (I have no idea how I would even begin to recover from something like that). I'm a paranoid geek, so I've automated daily backups to a gmail account because I'm afraid of this very thing. (And my computer did die once, so that actually worked for me.)

It became a repository for ALL my ideas at once, which was a very silly thing to do because then I had to make them all significant and useful in some way to the plot and it became almost impossible to do this without new ideas suddenly bursting into being and demanding recomplication and bedding in.

I do have this problem, sort of -but in a way that I'm finding useful rather than complicating. Does that make sense? I also have the sense that I'm throwing everything I have into this book, but it all seems to fit together nicely. It could be that my situation is really the same as yours but I'm looking at it through caffeine-tinted glasses.

Even after I worked out the plot arc I had this total fear round about 3/4 of the way through that the ending was way too fanciful (although it was a bloody clever ending) and I had to re-write the beginning to make it seem more plausible. This caused problems.

You know, I read an Anthony Burgess interview once (I think it was in the Paris Review) where he said that he wrote novels one page at a time. Write the first page, finish it, move on to the second page. I've since decided that he's a total bastard and probably lying through his teeth. (Sigh). I've rewritten my ending and beginning so many times I've lost count (I lie. It was three times), but again, I saw this as inevitable. Refactoring the code, kind of thing. Is it odd that I've written the ending and beginning first and am writing the middle last?

I'm considerably better at writing amusing dialogue and complex, involving descriptions of things and developing characters and fantastic environments than I am at making half-way tangible plots happen.

And ditto. Except my dialogue isn't amusing. At least, it's not amusing me. Yet. And my environments aren't fantastic enough. Okay, so not ditto then.

Question: when you folks talk about 'planning' etc, do you mean outlining or more freeform planning? I have many notebooks full of scribbled notes that even I have difficulty reading, and that's it for planning as far as I'm concerned. I don't dare Call Myself A Writer yet, but if I were a writer I would be a seat-of-the-pants writer.

(Oh, and ouch. I'm one of the newbies on Barbelith, and this is the first thread I've felt totally comfortable posting to. Having trouble with the act of creation = 1/3 of my life.)
 
 
Saturn's nod
05:19 / 14.06.07
I'm a bit in love with Julia Cameron's 'the Artist's Way'. It's a kind of creative/spiritual self development course-book. She prescribes daily 'pages' and a weekly 'artist's date', and there are exercises throughout the book for working on attitude and fears/misjudgements about creativity and creative life. Cameron writes screenplays and musicals and make films as well as writing and teaching creative-development books, and her definition of artist is broad enough for me who gets paid to be a scientist to find it useful. I also admire that she's someone who writes about having had mental health difficulties in the past and has overcome them with great success.

The artist's date is lovely: she conjures the creative part of the soul as a child, who needs treating. Hence a weekly outing on one's own to 'fill the inner well of images' with some fun and beautiful experience, whether that's haberdashery or a gallery or time to watch the pigeons.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
08:22 / 14.06.07
Thanks for the posts so far folks, I'm glad this topic is striking a bit of a chord with people. I guess I hesitated in posting this because I was a little nervous of receiving the kind of responses I've had from some people about facing difficulties in creative endeavour (usually along the lines of 'what, just sit down and get on with it, and stop moaning.'). Personally I believe there are genuine psychological barriers for many people that prevent them from progressing with creative work (hence the enormous market for books on how to write a novel/screenplay etc), but these barriers are often disguised by the prevailing mythos of the 'tortured artist', i.e. that creativity is supposed to be hard, that you have to agonise over it.

I've written one novel, and a couple of dozen short stories over the years. The novel started out as a NaNoWriMo project, and was largely drafted at weekends and in hotel rooms (I was working away from home four nights a week for nearly two years). I was working 14 hour days for large chunks of time, on the most stressful role I've ever done, and writing became something I looked forward to every night, an escape from that.

Now, I'm in a new job (which I love), working far more reasonable hours, and bam. Deadlock. Haven't written a thing in months. I feel bereft of ideas and spend a lot of time searching for the 'magic bullet', the tip or hint or guaranteed exercise that will break this barrier of resistance and help me generate ideas I actually want to write about, even though I know that a) that magic bullet doesn't exist (probably) and even if there is a guaranteed method, I'll need to find it for myself and it'll only apply to me and b) there's a whole industry and web-based cult of creativity/productivity out there (witness 43Folders and their ilk) that feeds and encourages this behaviour, because my fevered clicks keep them in ad revenue.

So, that's where I am at the moment, 'blocked' and very aware that I need to take action, but clueless what that action is.

Another function of this is what I mentioned in the abstract, a craving for 'artistic interaction', whatever that means. Even as I'm aware that a high percentage of creatives are in the same metaphorical boat as the art students described above (Artists with a capital A) and hanging out with them wouldn't necessarily do anything for me, I still find myself wanting that feedback, validation and interaction with other people who want to talk about story arcs, character development and line editing. I recently had a brilliant back-and-forth over email with XK, whose SF novel I will be stunt-reading soon, and it was electrifying. I think this stems from the fact that I beavered away on SF stories from the age of 14, and had my first serious validation from teachers (authority figure sez 'YOU IS GOOD, KEEP WRITING) swiftly followed by creative writing workshops at uni (Peers sez 'WE LIKEZ UR WRITING'), something which I don't have anymore. Moving on from that need for validation will be, for me, a pretty hard thing to do.
 
 
shockoftheother
10:47 / 14.06.07
Oh god, I sympathise.

I get frustrated at my ability to procrastinate about artistic projects, part of which comes from a fear about making a definitive statement which will inevitably be imperfect. Also, I think there's something in the idea that there's a real joy that comes from stealing time from other projects: I do a lot of my best work when I'm supposed to be doing something else, even though I'm aware that it's objectively a very childish approach to work I actually enjoy.

I've found that working in academia - where I have an obligation to deliver lectures, classes and papers on time, and have to be productive - has had an impact on the discipline with which I approach other things. I do some performance work as well as writing, and I find myself increasingly less tolerant of collaborative work that happens in the 5 minutes of sobriety between binges. This is difficult for a variety of reasons, as I love all the people I work with, and recognise that their addictions are symptoms of a variety of issues, and occasionally the work produced in the sober periods is astounding, but it's impossible to predict and thus difficult to book performance spaces and the like. When there's a project that's awaiting realisation, that can get really irritating.

But then all the art I really like grows out of agony and difficulty anyway, so I'm pretty screwed.

I know a couple of people who claim to be living the life-as-art thing, and it seems to mostly consist of wandering around clubs looking strange. There's the occasional person doing that who can be interesting, especially in terms of embodying a particular character or way of being (such as, say, Dickon Edwards), but they're sadly few and far between. The life-as-artist thing is different, I think, in that it claims a privilege of special insight or inspiration, demands certain types of behaviour to accomodate a tortured soul, often without delivering on grand ideas or those claims to artistic insight. I've certainly been guilty of this in the past.

It kind of helped to look at myself as a production factory rather than an 'artist' with all its various connotations. My being is therefore contingent on what I am producing. I also stopped talking about things I was *going* to do or *wanted* to do, until I'd at least made a start on them. Like every other self-styled creative, part of me thrives on the praise and adulation of others, but discovered I could get it by talking about things I was going to do rather than just doing them. This leads to a vicious cycle of then failing to do things because there's just no way it's going to be as cool as all your friends thought it was going to be.

Of course, I also think there's great benefit in idling, sitting around thinking about things, working out what you really think and mean by things. I think the conflict between how you want to be perceived while performing and what you actually want to say or mean is one of the disjunctions that leads to writer's block. It is for me. I sort of realised that it's ok to be a bit crap or ridiculous, as technique can be continually refined to the point where it can be an effective vehicle for meaning, but without an aim at the centre, perfect technique doesn't go anywhere.

Rambly. Really should get some work done...
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
10:50 / 14.06.07
So, 7s, EXCELLENT THREAD.

Perhaps you should post some more of your "wanted to post but didn't" threads, should you have any!

snark = 0% thus for. Validation and support all round!
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
11:31 / 14.06.07
Like every other self-styled creative, part of me thrives on the praise and adulation of others, but discovered I could get it by talking about things I was going to do rather than just doing them. This leads to a vicious cycle of then failing to do things because there's just no way it's going to be as cool as all your friends thought it was going to be.

Hit the nail on the head there I feel.

Sibelian, thanks - I (ironically) procrastinated about posting this because, frankly, it felt like it would be more of the same for me (if I had a penny for every moaning journal entry about the fact I couldn't write anything, I'd have, well, a lot of pennies. Probably at least a couple of quid). However, the input of others in this is a major plus (and has the added benefit of making me feel less like a moaning self-indulgent eejit).

Not to open a fresh chapter of the search for the magic bullet, but if we can identify and unpack some of the root causes of blocked creativity, can we extrapolate to possible solutions?
 
 
Ilhuicamina
11:35 / 14.06.07
shockoftheother: Also, I think there's something in the idea that there's a real joy that comes from stealing time from other projects: I do a lot of my best work when I'm supposed to be doing something else, even though I'm aware that it's objectively a very childish approach to work I actually enjoy.

Ah, good old Structured Procrastination. I swear by it. Childish? Pfft. A perfectly rational, adult way to deal with life, methinks.

7s: a craving for 'artistic interaction', whatever that means: I do know what you mean. More interaction than validation (though validation is always nice), just to be able to talk to people who are in the same mode and doing similar things. Not knowing anybody who fits the bill IRL, I find myself gently nudging people I know toward creative endeavours, in the purely selfish hope of getting some good "artistic interaction" going. Is their continued resistance going to turn ugly soon? Probably.

(Sibelian: yknow, I didn't realize this was expected to be a snarksome thread until I'd already posted and read the parent thread. Which is lucky, because otherwise I would have run a mile. It was that thread about social anxiety/social phobia which got me to join in the first place...)
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
11:47 / 14.06.07
Not sure it was expected to be a snarksome thread to be honest, I think my own inner snark was telling me that, yes, yet again, you're going to spend time writing and reading about writing, rather than actually writing. Now it's going, I think it's going to be very useful.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:11 / 14.06.07
Just to raid the abstract:

Creativity only exists when you're working, in the same way that Buddhists don't get enlightened once and then stay enlightened for ever, but rather attain separate moments of enlightenment through practice (allegedly). Actually "Creativity" is a word that gets bounced around a lot by crazy cat fans and complimentary-medicine-men, who often seem to think it would be a good idea to write a book about writing. I find this ambiguous and sinister. I think it says a lot that no Elizabethan poet or dramaturge is recorded as talking about their "Creativity". I think "Creativity" is suspect. Actually, I think ...

*goes to the shelves*

Yep, Aristotle says that art is emulation, mimesis, not synthesis. So Creativity can go out of the window, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Writer's Block is another dubious phantasm, in that the people who get it tend to be the same ones who say "I'm more of a writer than a reader". Once you get a concept of art as "production/work", and "mimesis", the notion of writer's block becomes untenable, because any job requires constant training and research...if you're an architect any time you spend not desiging buildings would be spent looking at buildings. I strongly beleive that as long as you keep up constant reading writer's block won't be an issue. People who write news journalism don't get writer's block, and literature is just news that stays news.

Again, this is why I mistrust things like the Arvon "writer's retreat" courses, where you go to a big house in Wales or some other conveniently picturesque part of the island in order to "find inspiration" and "fire your creativity". What? Away from my shelves? What?

Hanging out in Cafes is a perfectly healthy way of spending leisure time. It's not healthy, however, to big yourself up. If you talk about what you do you should always be totally honest. That doesn't preclude being ambitious. It just means not lying to yourself and others about how close you are to acheiving those ambitions.

Otherwise you'll end up saying you're an artist and never doing any actual art. It's wrong, really, to claim to be "an artist", as if it's your job, until you've been published to the public in some way. That doesn't mean you can't say you've been painting or writing a novel, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't take these things absolutely seriously.

What the hell is an artist anyway? Someone who creates beautiful things for other people to enjoy.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
13:18 / 14.06.07
Not to open a fresh chapter of the search for the magic bullet, but if we can identify and unpack some of the root causes of blocked creativity, can we extrapolate to possible solutions?

Treat what you're doing as work, and make the same demands on yourself that an employer would make. This means making constant studies and cartoons if you're a painter, and a daily word count if you're writing. Likewise, constant research and study. This is what your great Elizabethans were doing: half the time spent at literally hard graft at scouring the Latin and Greek manuscripts, and then the other half spent forcing that knowledge into something your actors could perform and that your public would enjoy, and making works of a standard good enough for the courts. They were also literally going through their Latin and French dictionaries, looking for new words and phrases to copy across into English.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
13:53 / 14.06.07
I think your answer, Legba, may strike at the heart of things for me. Writing has always been mired halfway between hobby and part-time job for me, tending toward hobby, and I think a lack of confidence has halted its progression toward that work state where I could feel that, bluntly, it's a job, like any other, with targets.

In a fairly objective way, I recognise also that my resistance to that idea is partly because of the mythos of the creative act, airily pulling Great Words from the ether, which can't possibly be Work.

But then I think of the times when I've been happiest writing (pounding away at the keys, proof-reading, getting the words down quickly and to a high quality), and I compare them to the times when I was happy in my day job (fiddling with code, working out something particularly complex in Excel, rattling out a high quality training manual) and I realise that there's a similar sense of flow mixed with achievement spiced with satisfaction at a job well done.

Placed in that context, Art as Work, and hence something more approachable and able to be acted upon, doesn't seem quite so counter to my preconceptions.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
14:21 / 14.06.07
Yep, Aristotle says that art is emulation, mimesis, not synthesis. So Creativity can go out of the window, at least as far as I'm concerned.

What?! Aristotle???!!!

Please be patient with me, but I don't understand you at all.

Also, this contradicts your assertion (with which, incidentally, I wholeheartedly agree), that an artist is someone who creates beautiful things for people to enjoy.

Doesn't it?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:39 / 14.06.07
I'm also inclined to believe that Aristotle saying something doesn't explicitly make it so - who's he to say that ALL art is essentially 'copying'? It's an arguable point.

I do like the idea, however, of creativity being likened to moments of enlightenment in the Buddhist sense - I think that fits with my experience of moments of 'flow' where things drop into place and I type like a demon. There's a lot of time spent working toward that state though.

And this is where I stick, because I'm finding it hard to start the slog toward that flow state.
 
 
shockoftheother
15:02 / 14.06.07
Writer's Block is another dubious phantasm

That's a difficult one, in that the situation is more complex than that: writer's block undoubtedly exists, it's just that feelings of ennui and hyped-up self-belief ("everything I write has to be utterly amazing") are often conflated with it. My experience of writer's block is not that nothing will come, but that what does come is leaden, clumsy and disheartening. The only solution, I find, is in actually working through it and eventually reaching a place where everything's coming together again.

I don't think the problem is as simple as regarding art as work, though that is undoubtedly an important strategy in terms of getting up and producing things, but indulging in the interiority and introspection that allow us to produce art that's (hopefully!) worthwhile while restraining the impulse to do nothing but gaze inward. It's a difficult line to walk, but viewing art as work can occasionally lead to configuring what you're producing in line with what a hypothetical audience will purchase. Again, not a bad idea to have an eye on how to make money out of your art, but a difficult line to tread.

Mind you, getting paid for your work is a massively important step in terms of valuing your own creativity. Sure, money's a very crude symbol of worth, but it can have an amazing impact on one's impetus and confidence to produce.

I'm sure you know, Allecto, how problematic describing art as primarily mimetic can be, in that the creation of a work of art participates in interior subjectivity as much as it does clear description of the world. One could well argue that mimesis is also about the description of subjective perspectives and emotional states as well as putative objective realities, of course, but maybe that highlights why the process of creation is difficult for many, in that documentation of the interior necessitates participation as well as observation. I'm not sure a purely mimetic theory of aesthetics can ever hope to encompass the processes of art accurately.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
15:06 / 14.06.07
Allecto - sorry. That was a bit of an outburst.

I've gone and raised the snark percentage. How ironic...

/... wilts.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
15:14 / 14.06.07
Nah, what would be ironic would be if you'd been halfway through writing something snarky, and then deleted it because it's not True Snark.

Shockoftheother, that's a fantastic post, very well put.
 
 
Ilhuicamina
17:33 / 14.06.07
Allecto: Treat what you're doing as work, and make the same demands on yourself that an employer would make. This means making constant studies and cartoons if you're a painter, and a daily word count if you're writing. Likewise, constant research and study.

shockoftheother: I don't think the problem is as simple as regarding art as work [...] viewing art as work can occasionally lead to configuring what you're producing in line with what a hypothetical audience will purchase. Again, not a bad idea to have an eye on how to make money out of your art, but a difficult line to tread.

I thought that exchange was a little off because both points are perfectly valid; they're just about (I think) two different interpretations of the word "work". My apologies if I'm misreading either of you, but I understood what Allecto was saying to mean "Be diligent, treat it as your work" in the sense of honing a craft or skill, whereas shockoftheother is saying "Be wary of playing to a hypothetical audience rather than creating what you want to create". Like I said, both good points, but they don't contradict each other.

Also, my piddly two cents on Aristotle. Allecto, I assume you're referring to the Poetics? I understood Aristotle's mimesis, or "emulation" as you put it, as meaning "representation" or "simulation" (of life, that is, or IIRC of a specific kind of life that Aristotle admired), not "mimicry" or "copying", which is how 7s took it earlier. That doesn't really invalidate the whole concept of creativity, in my view -though I agree with you that focusing (and obsessing) over Creativity-with-a-capital-C is pointless. As 7s said earlier, this is where the "productivity porn" websites like 43Folders & co. come in; selling the idea of "Creativity" as something separate from that which is created.

7s: you've brought up flow a couple of times. I think you are referring to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's (I hope I spelled that right) concept, yes? I've only read Finding Flow (hey, it's something to do instead of writing) and he talks about finding flow in what he calls autotelic activities, which are basically things we do for their own sake, for the experience of doing them, rather than for external reasons such as ambition or what have you. Unfortunately, it's difficult to read Csikszentmihalyi on flow without feeling like he's romanticizing it ("Flow! Flow! Flow will fix everything!"), and I'm a wee bit suspicious of giving something a name and considering it a single theory object when it covers so many different areas of work/play. (Is the flow of a kinaesthete different from that of a writer?) However, he does enumerate the components of the flow experience as he defines it, and if you consider art to be the ultimate autotelic activity, maybe we should look more closely at that (I think "unpack it" is the local argot?) and talk about how to get there. Or would that be derailing the thread?
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
19:29 / 14.06.07

I think it would be *railing* the thread.

Because...

I do like the idea, however, of creativity being likened to moments of enlightenment in the Buddhist sense - I think that fits with my experience of moments of 'flow' where things drop into place and I type like a demon. There's a lot of time spent working toward that state though.

... I relate to this deeply.

For me, creative projects have a kind of natural lifecycle to which I have become sufficiently attuned that I can tell roughly how long they're going to last. The whole "juice" metaphor" is perfect. I spend months building up "juice" and then 3 weeks or so spending it on something in a burst of controlled energy. Then it dries up and I have to stop. There's no point carrying on after that unless there's some kind of external validation, at which point more juice can be generated, but I still have to have a rest, at least.

SO, instead of analysing writer's block, I have decided that it's basically just the drying up of the juice. If I want more juice after a particularly violent spurt, I often have to go and get some from someone else in the form of cooing and adoration over my latest baby, which most often works very well, providing they actually coo and adore. It doesn't always work, but it's a good deal more likely to work than fretting over having writer's block, which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I suppose I try to trust the project, if you like, and that it knows when it's done. This can often mean looking at half an story and realising it's actually finished, it just needs some guff taken out.

The novel was an exception. It may never be repeated.

(Thank you for your sympathetic words, by the way, everybody. It was a bit like losing a part of me...)
 
 
unbecoming
21:02 / 14.06.07
if you consider art to be the ultimate autotelic activity

I think that is where distinctions between Art(caps)/art come into play. In the Fine Art world, i think that some consideration always has to be given to the audience to allow the piece to take on any significance in the wider intertextual arena of Art by its differential distinctions from, and references to other works. However, the difficulty lies in the fact that this contextual element to the works is not always applied or considered by the artist, and is applied prior to the work's creation by critics and theorists seeking to craft a new narrative about art. (i'm thinking Pollock/Greenberg)
I think that autotelic(not familiar with the term, hope i am using it right) art does exist but i would say it would be most prevailent in the works of outsider artists e.g. Henry Darger

The idea that an artist is a Genius, who, pulling ideas from the ether with the pure essential force of inspiration is kind of frowned upon these days but I think there may be something left in it somewhere. Instead we seem to have the Artist as Bricoleur, situated within and navigating culture, operating a creative agency which is a joyful play with pre-existing elements.

With that in mind a useful metaphor might be that of digestion but if culture is the food then the art must be shit.


on the subject of creative block I would say that the main problem for me is more to limit the possibilities that the work could take to avoid the ideas overload Sibelian mentions above. I think it is critical that one can determain when an idea does not belong where it is and should, in fact, be used somewhere else.
 
 
Ilhuicamina
03:11 / 15.06.07
Hester: I think that autotelic(not familiar with the term, hope i am using it right) art does exist but i would say it would be most prevailent in the works of outsider artists

I don't want to attach undue importance to the word in this discussion, but that's not my understanding of what autotelic means. As I said above, it's basically any activity whose purpose is itself, rather than a motivation external to itself. I think regardless of whether you see the artist-as-bricoleur (or digester - hah! That's a no-nonsense way of looking at it) or artist-as-ethereally-inspired, art is autotelic as far as artists are doing art as an end-in-itself. (Some may not, I suppose).

The distinction you made there is more about "where does art come from?" rather than "what is it like to create art?" Which leads us to the study of art than the doing of art -another interesting question, but a different one and not in my view of more practical utility. Personally, I have no idea if the ideas I get come from some deep well of inspiration, whether I'm touched by divine madness, whether I have my head up my ass or whether I'm remixing and layering the entire set of experiences and influences that define me as a cultural entity. A bit of everything, no doubt. But does anybody worry about this? What gets me where I live is what 7s said:

I think that fits with my experience of moments of 'flow' where things drop into place and I type like a demon. There's a lot of time spent working toward that state though.

And this is where I stick, because I'm finding it hard to start the slog toward that flow state.


Also, I like what Hester said: we seem to have the Artist as Bricoleur, situated within and navigating culture, operating a creative agency which is a joyful play with pre-existing elements. Bricolage aside, I like this because I also see art as being fundamentally ludic (and occasionally ludicrous), which may seem a little at odds with the whole "treat art as work" theme discussed earlier -but I suppose the key is to have balance. Should we treat art as something that should come with deadlines and schedules, or as something more like a game, or both?

The Csikszentmihalyi definition of the 'flow' experience and it's components:

1. Clear goals (expectations and rules are discernible and goals are attainable and align appropriately with one's skill set and abilities).
2. Concentrating and focusing, a high degree of concentration on a limited field of attention (a person engaged in the activity will have the opportunity to focus and to delve deeply into it).
3. A loss of the feeling of self-consciousness, the merging of action and awareness.
4. Distorted sense of time - one's subjective experience of time is altered.
5. Direct and immediate feedback (successes and failures in the course of the activity are apparent, so that behavior can be adjusted as needed).
6. Balance between ability level and challenge (the activity is neither too easy nor too difficult).
7. A sense of personal control over the situation or activity.
8. The activity is intrinsically rewarding, so there is an effortlessness of action.
9. When in the flow state, people become absorbed in their activity, and focus of awareness is narrowed down to the activity itself, action awareness merging (Csikszentmihalyi, 1975. p.72).

Not all are needed for flow to be experienced.


Some of which helps with the differentiation between 'game' and 'work'. Both have clear goals, for example, but 'work' may not provide some of us with a sense of personal control over the situation or direct and immediate feedback, or even balance between ability and challenge. But for the doing of art, this does suggest that clear, attainable goals (especially simple things like a daily word count if you're a writer, which Allecto suggested earlier) may be a good starting point.

(PS: Hester, I loved the art you posted in the Gallery thread, by the by. Was just too lurk-y to comment at the time.)
 
 
unbecoming
04:06 / 15.06.07
Thanks for the kind feedback- i have been meaning to post some more but I have that procrasta-monkey on my back.

it's basically any activity whose purpose is itself, rather than a motivation external to itself.
if that is the case then i think my point stands. It may be pessimistic but i'm not sure that art is created for its own ends, since, as i mention above, it is primarily created to have a particular significance within the network of prior cultural realtionships. I see that attempt to create meaning and significance as being exterior to the act of making Art itself. In that way, some may argue that Jackson Pollock made Autotelic work but many would argue that was a myth atttached to his practice.

However, since Henry Darger made his work in his room according to entirely internal rules and governance, for noone but himself to see, i would argue that he was making autotelic Art.


I hope that isn't taking the point too far off course, i think your right when you say discussing the origin of Art may not be practical.

For me, the seeing Art as work thing is not to see Art as being your job, so to speak. Rather it is making sure that you have a new space for making work which is clearly defined from your home space, I find that if the two intermingle too much then both areas become sluggish. I also think taht deadlines are essential but it just doesn't work for me to impose my own, that's why i am constantly looking for competitions to enter, open submisiions etc.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:00 / 18.06.07
if that is the case then i think my point stands. It may be pessimistic but i'm not sure that art is created for its own ends, since, as i mention above, it is primarily created to have a particular significance within the network of prior cultural realtionships. I see that attempt to create meaning and significance as being exterior to the act of making Art itself. In that way, some may argue that Jackson Pollock made Autotelic work but many would argue that was a myth atttached to his practice.

And if you read Critical Theory you'll get lots of people telling you that everything humans produce is political, because it's produced within a network of production relations, ownership, and ideology. Which is undoutedly true.

However, it still stands that good art is made only when people try to be as objective as possible, try to make it as pure as possible: the sublime objective nature of art as an ideal of perfection to aspire to.

Which is why we can read, enjoy and respect someone like Ezra Pound or Eliot as the best poets of the 20th century - whatever heinous politics they may have had, they both endavoured to keep themselves and their prejudices out of their work*. As opposed to a huge ammount of nicely liberal Victorian poets whose work is yet so preachy and soap-boxish it makes you throw the book across the room. This is why it thoroughly annoys me when some dick, allegedly a University student, says they won't read Pound because "he was a Nazi" or won't take the time to look at his theories about poetics, when Pound's critical essays alone could right a hundred wrongs in the poetry of most humans.

See also Paul Claudel, Baudelaire, and even Shakespeare, if you think about it - we would probably not agree with the entirety of these people's political opinions, but anyone with a brain will respect their works.

*I know we find the "monstrous Jew" in both of these poet's ouevres, but he is a less significant factor than the Idiot Alliance would have you beleive.
 
 
unbecoming
16:04 / 18.06.07
I totally agree that there can be excellence in the forms of work made by a given artist despite their politics. Hey, i've been known to enjoy the odd track from Frank Zappa from time to time.

But i'm not sure i agree with your statement:
good art is made only when people try to be as objective as possible, try to make it as pure as possible: the sublime objective nature of art as an ideal of perfection to aspire to.

Do you mean that art should aspire to be autotelic and that autotelesis(?) should be its ultimate goal?

forgive me because i might be getting confused with the attempted autonomousness of the abstract expressionists who, according to Greenberg were trying to produce a new and universal language of pure forms. As you say, this alleged autonomy has been subject to substantial critique.

To relate this issue to the issue of creativity and my experience of operating it- in my practice i locate and appropriate elements of culture that interest me and interact with them as a material. sometime during this process i try to formulate a method of display, or outcome fopr the work which is rewarding for me to make (points 2 and 3 above)but is also, importantly, appropriate to the nexus of meaning i wish to communicate( subject to networks of production relations, ownership, and ideology).

Really, i don't see this as autotelic, not because of the political relations part but because i seek to create meaning and that is dependant on my understanding of the prior language of cultural citations and aesthetics i am using in my attempt to communicate to an audience.

But that's where i'm torn because there's a bit of a contradiction- on some level i do believe in the idea of the artist who creates pure art, i do believe that my ideas come from the ether...it's tricky.
 
 
shockoftheother
17:56 / 18.06.07
It's undoubtedly somewhat questionable to refuse to read or engage with an artist because of their political views, but I think it's understandable that it's a vexatious issue. However much I recognise that such a position is romanticised, an incorrigibly naive part of me still clings to the idea of artist as shaman or seer and as such connected to the locus of ethical truth. This relationship is obviously problematic when they're engaged in justification of fascism (Willie Yeats, I'm lookin' at you) or have an unfortunate tendency to living in a knot of splenetic broadsides and unrepentant bile (partly what makes Pound so exciting an author, of course).

But this all comes down to the assumption on my part that art is primarily concerned with insight into the human condition, and in order to be a great artist, and a writer in particular, one requires the ability to sympathise with others. These assumptions might well be misguided.

In fact, Allecto, the desire for objectivity you talk about reminds me of Eliot's Tradition & the Individual Talent, with its desire to eliminate the merely personal and articulate the objective state of an era. But that essay's a curious one anyway, torn as it is between that idea and the implicit idea that the poet must genuinely possess something in order to surrender it to the process of depersonalization. But then, my favourite parts in Eliot are where he's clearly trying to create a poetry of meaning. Little Gidding rocks my pagan socks.

I think perhaps the desire for objectivity does help make good art, but I think it can also make for some very cold art indeed. Admittedly, the school of partiality has provided a far vaster swathe of cringeworthy tedium, but I can't see partiality as in itself a hallmark of bad art. Ginsberg's Plutonian Ode does it for me, and it's in no way objective.

For myself, when I look at my own process of creativity, I don't recognise any attempt to become objective, but the process of art itself eventually affords distance enough that I can at least conceive of it from a differing perspective. I don't think any art - even and perhaps especially 'outsider' art - exists without an awareness of its audience or potential audience. Even in Darger's work a potential audience exists if only of the cultural phantasms and sexualised ghost images from which his art is drawn. Sure, that differs from my consideration of a what a reader of audience member might get out of my writing or performance, but I don't think the difference is as considerable as it first appears.
 
 
unbecoming
15:58 / 19.06.07
However much I recognise that such a position is romanticised, an incorrigibly naive part of me still clings to the idea of artist as shaman or seer and as such connected to the locus of ethical truth.

I can relate to your feelings on this. That's why i prefer the idea of Bricoleur to that of the Genius Artist, the term has a connection to that tribal shaman figure, who manipulates significance, through the anthropological theory of levis-Strauss and i think that change in terminology allows the figure of the artist to return to having a socially significant purpose within culture rather than trying to transcend it.

I'm intrigued by the apparent distance between that feeling of shamanic creativity that might feel as if it runs deeper than we concieve of culture and the Death of the Author viewpoint where it's almost as if culture and art were in fact writing itself.

But, to speak practically about creativity again, I often feel that these considerations are sometrimes applied by the inner critic and can be stifling to the actual production of work. Does anyone else feel this way? I think there is another interesting distance there. How does one balance the intuitive and unthinking creative process as per "flow" with contextual and critical considerations? is this where a well developed process comes into play?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:10 / 20.06.07
Haven't forgotten this thread, I'm going to cook up a post when I get home.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:39 / 20.06.07
I think perhaps the desire for objectivity does help make good art, but I think it can also make for some very cold art indeed. Admittedly, the school of partiality has provided a far vaster swathe of cringeworthy tedium, but I can't see partiality as in itself a hallmark of bad art. Ginsberg's Plutonian Ode does it for me, and it's in no way objective.

Certainly, although I'd suggest that Ginsberg, even in his personal poetry, is still much aware of working in a tradition (Pound, Whitman, Blake), and making A Work of Art, as it were, as opposed to just "writing down what he thinks". There's certainly room in Tradition and the Individual Talent for "warm" works or works which have a feeling of the personal - the subjective is not outlawed, only that part of the subjective which is not also an objective correlative.
 
  
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