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Comparison of Art and Music periods 1: Rennaissance and Barouqe

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:19 / 30.01.02
First, I know I spelled Rennaissance wrong. Second, I suppose you're wondering why this is in the art section instead of music. Well, it will be comprised of both, but I'm personally looking for more from the art perspective than music, as I've got a pretty good handle on the music side and am pretty weak on the art. If it needs to be moved, go ahead.

I'm wondering how the different movements in art and music are related. Did they have similar motivations and influences, and if so, what where they? What are the similarities and differences? Was politics as big an inspiration/influence in music as it was in art? What's the connection? Or did they just happen to occur at the same time? If I get enough information, I'd like to make an article, if anyone thinks it's a good idea besides me.

Right, here we go.

The Rennaissance: This period saw all sorts of new shit coming out in both art and music. In music, new technology was making it possible for more complex instruments to be invented, leading to more complex compositions. It was around this time that the first great violin makers were gaining notice, and the viol (a chello like instrument used for bass lines) was invented. It didn't go very far as an instrument, but it did lead to greater detail in the bass line. Also, early Nationalist schools of music were popping up in England, France, Germany, and of course, Italy. These schools really pushed along the idea of more complex arrangements.

As far as art goes, I know that the there was an Italian Rennaissance and a Northern Rennaissance, and I think art was turning from a more religious oriented theme to...other stuff, I guess. There were artists like DaVinci and Michealangelo (who apparently didn't get along), who did both paintings and sculpture; DaVinci being the more a painter and Michealangelo being more of a sculptor (even though he did do the Chapel ceiling deal, the name of which I've forgotten how to spell. Sisteen?).
In the north, it switched from religious art to everyday stuff and a weird kind of animal theme. I'd like some more information on this, please. My knowledge comes from an art history class last semester, and I was stoned for a good half of the classes, and I passed with only a C+.

Discussion: It seems like the art movement was a bit more seperated than the music. Note the divide between the Italian and Northern Rennaissance. I think the deal behind that was that English and French armies came down to Italy to bust stuff up and noticed something was happening and took it back to the North, where a seperate thing got started. As far as music went, while different and seperate schools were popping up, the style was more ruled by technology and it's dissapearing limits than individual musicians and their respective countries. So, my questions are, what sort of stuff was being painted in Italy? How big was technology's role in the arts? How did it compare, generally, to the music scene? Why was it that Germany got involved in the music, but not nearly as much the art?

Barouqe: Music-wise, this is where stuff started getting pretty damn complex. Guys like Bach and Teleman and Vivaldi where writing lots of music, a lot of sacred stuff coming from Bach and Vivaldi (who was a priest anyway). You can tell a Barouqe piece from another period's piece by a number of things. For instance, the bassline, while more active than in the past, was still pretty simple. Long slow strokes, mainly builing chords and very little going on melody wise in the bass section. The dynamics were terraced rather than smooth, due to the fact that Harpsichords (pianos had not been invented just yet) could play in two, maybe three volumes. Kinda Soft, Loud, and maybe A Bit Louder. Also, trills (quickingly alternating between two notes right next to each other) went from the higher note to the lower, something that changed in the next period of music.
This stuff was much more complex than what had come before, thanks again to technology improving. This is my personal favorite period. Gotta love Bach. He was a madman. Fucking nuts, I tell you.

Art. I'm going to need a good bit of help here, I think. I'm having trouble naming any other artists besides Michealangelo's student (who's name I have forgotten) who did that sculpture of the nun's rapture (which is amazing, by the way). It would seem that art, like music, got a bit more complex here. I know arcitecture got into detail a good bit, using Corinthian columns and whatnot. I'm going to assume that such attention to detail was a Barouqe "thing" as far as painting went, too. Like I said, I use a bit of help here. I know Roccoco came after Barouqe, but there is no music equivalent to Roccoco. As far as art went, it had even more detail. Lots of people have used the image of really exsrtavagent icing on a cake to describe Roccoco painting and arcitecture. I've also heard a lot of "What would you expect? It came from France."

Discussion: How was politics influencing art up to this point? It had very little presence in music compared to art, and wouldn't for some time. Why? Why is there no Roccoco period for music? Barouqe music was more German than anything else. Is this true for art as well? I'm thinking no, but why? Is this a case of music style and art style having the same name because they just happened to occur at the same time?

Thanks in advance for any and all contributions.

Next: The French Revolution! Classical, Romantic and Impressionistic stuff.
 
 
lentil
06:51 / 31.01.02
ooh! nice thread. I am definitely going to attempt a response but may have to wait until lunchtime, or at least until the boss disappears for a while.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:44 / 31.01.02
I too need to think about this - but for starters Michelangelo's student (who did the sculpture of St. Teresa in ecstasy) is Bernini.

As far as architecture goes - the development of the Italian Renaissance classical style (using the orders to articulate facades, use of the golden rule, and so on) isn't so much about detail as rules and following rules - see for good examples some of Palladio's earlier stuff. Mannerism (a style characterised by Michelangelo's work in the Biblioteca Laurentiana, Florence, which is a-mazing) sort of stretches these rules - stretches proportions, spatial arrangements and so on - and is quite unsettling. Baroque, which follows on from Mannerism, breaks the rules, and instead of the stately feel of classicism is boisterous and robust, and grandiose - it's all about movement and big statements. Bernini's architecture is very definitely baroque.

The funny thing about all of this is that it's quite hard to pinpoint exactly what makes a building classical, mannerist or baroque - hence my rather waffly definitions above - it's more about the *feel* of the buildings.

In the North - there is a considerable time lapse before Renaissance motifs and methods filter through into architecture (Britain, the latest developer, didn't have a fully classical building until Inigo Jones built the banqueting House in Whitehall - 1620s, IIRC). Moreover there are very definite regional variations in style - again difficult to describe in terms of form (I really just think of them as French, Dutch and so on - as in 'oh look, that's an Italianate facade but they've gone and stuck a French mansard roof on it'). But by the end of the C17 it's fairly safe to say that everywhere is in full Baroque mode. Rococo turns up in the mid C18, and again has regional variations - it's less evident in Italy, for some reason, but has very definite German and French flavours.

Hope that's a little help on the architecture front...

I am sure, too, that I have heard of Rococo music, but perhaps I am just thinking of the Rococo Variations.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
12:25 / 31.01.02
Yeah, Bernini, that's the guy. That statue is amazing. It's all one peice of stone! He sculpted a goddam cloud. I wouldn't have thought that possible.

I think the Roccoco Variations you are thinking of are the late-end Barouqe stuff that was Barouqe, but more so. Not quite what you'd call Roccoco, as the late end stuff has enough wacky bits to make each voice sound independent that any more would be silly. Not to mention hard to conduct.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:31 / 31.01.02
I was actually thinking of the ones by Tchaikovsky (just goes to show, doesn't it... seventeen years playing classical instruments and I can hardly think of a C18 composer... uh, Haydn, Handel... Mozart...)
 
 
grant
13:59 / 31.01.02
Baroque = birth of opera.

Very important. The idea of the a. secular story told in b. a synaesthetic medium.

Also, Renaissance in Italy starts when, late 1300s? The social trend only comes out in Britain I think right around Shakespeare - mid 1500s.

Baroque trivia: I remember Handel was a German who appears (from correspondence) to have gone to England on a protracted artistic exchange mainly to escape his boorish patron -- who then gets crowned King George I. Follows him to England, see. No escape. And that's the 1600s.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:03 / 31.01.02
Historical specificity is all-important with these things, innit.

BTW Grant - George I succeeded to the throne of England (and of Scotland, depending on how Jacobite you are) in 1714.

[/history fatbeard]
 
 
lentil
14:07 / 31.01.02
Not going to be able to offer any meaningful comparisons, as my knowledge of pre 20th century music is nonexistent, but i have a few simple points about the influence of technology on art in the Renaissance. First up is the development of linear perspective. Not that it came from the development of an entirely new tool, unless you count methods of representation as tools, which they are. Giotto was the first to use the technique of setting up a canvas so that it occupies the equivalent space in your field of vision as the subject of your painting, then piercing a hole through it at the centre of your focus (this becomes the convergence point of the perspective) through which you thread a string. Lining up the string with all the receding lines you can see ensures that everything in the painting will be in correct perspective. this is very simple (or seems so now) but is definitely evidence of a concerted effort to analyse the way real space is constructed and perceived to assist in its representation. i don't know where you live, but there are plenty of examples of this in the National Gallery in London. I'm particularly thinking of Carlo Crivelli, if you can find a picture of his "annunciation" it'll illustrate what I'm talking about. Crivelli also used luxurious colours that could only be made with the most expensive pigments, which not only look great but demonstrated the wealth of his patrons. Not a new thing that, but could be linked to the general explosion of commerce and wealth that accompanied the Renaissance.
<have to go, and i haven't said anything useful yet. sorry - will return>
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:20 / 31.01.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
Baroque = birth of opera.

Very important. The idea of the a. secular story told in b. a synaesthetic medium.




Oooh, good point.

More Barouqe trivia: Vivaldi was a pervert who liked little girls. It's on record that he never actually did anything about his urges, which is admirable (sort of), but it's still kind of creepy. Also, Teleman was a good bit more popular than Bach during this period, but few outside of classical music fans have ever heard of him. Poor guy.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:27 / 31.01.02
Thanks, lentil. I completely forgot about the whole perspective deal, which did great things as far as realism went.

Couple of things: First, I know new kinds of paint where being made around this time. Was it here that oils were introduced? I'm pretty sure not many people after DaVinci used that egg stuff, but I can't remember what came next.

Second, how was politics affecting the arts? In music, it really wasn't that big a deal. If a king said "gimme some music", by god, he got music, but that's as far as it went.

More Barouqe trivia: I have recently learned that one of my favorite Barouqe pieces, Bach's Tocatta and Fugue, is under debate as to whether or not it was actually written by Bach or one of his students. I guess that's not as bad as the fifties blues scene, where if a really good bluesman died, his student would take his name and all his recording contracts.
 
 
lentil
12:49 / 01.02.02
For starters, i've realised that it was actually Brunelleschi, not Giotto, who first used linear perspective in representation. Which actually makes more sense, as he was also an architect, and so would be well versed with the problems of representing real space. it also goves you another handy example of interdisciplinary fertilisation!

The thing I really wanted to direct your attention towards are the theories David Hockney has been working on. He was trying to find some explanation of why everybody in Europe suddenly seemed to be able to depict reality much more accurately after about 1400. (if you look at the development in painting around this time it really is striking) It's accepted that some artists used optical devices to help their depictions, Vermeer is often cited in this respect, but he claims that their use was much more widespread than anyone has previously realised. Rapid advances in glassworking were made during the renaissance, increasing the availability of mirrors and lenses which could be used to make simple visual projections, which artists could then trace. He points out numerous features in renaissance painting, such as increased naturalism, strong unidirectional light, shallow pictorial space and dark backgrounds, all of which point circumstantially to the use of optical devices. Caravaggio displays all of these features, and also ties in to what you mentioned about the shift away from purely religious subjects. Although the painting I've linked here is Biblical, he painted a lot of 'ordinary folks', often in unsavoury situations, such as betting houses. His influence was enormous and extremely widespread; any sudden changes elsewhere that use elements of his work can probably be attributed to some level of influence. He also made lots of paintings of musicians and musical instruments, although i don't know what the ideas behind those were.

Da Vinci pretty much singlehandedly embodied the art/ technology interface. Also, as Hockney points out, as he was such a skilled technician, he definitely would have known how to use optical devices.

Regarding the Hockney stuff, I don't think his ideas are 100% watertight, sometimes he interprets things a little too vigorously to get them to fit his theory, but he's definitely onto something.

Oh yeah - the painting materials. can't add anyhting to that other than to say I think you're right that movement away from egg tempera to oils was going on.

Finally, why not have a look at jan van eyck's "arnolfini marraiage", not only is it fucking fantastic, but it also features a stunningly accurate depiction of a reflection in a convex mirror.

</alcoholic professor/> Ah yes, an unbroken tradition of genius, freewheeling through the centuries! </alcoholic professor/>
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:00 / 01.02.02
Whoops, meant to say this earlier - but yes, Lentilsky is right; oils were first used in (IIRC) the Low Countries and then spread outwards and southwards. Botticelli certainly used tempera; but by the time da Vinci was working oils were around (tho' NB also da Vinci's experimentation with media - sometimes successful, sometimes not, c.f. the Last Supper).

Politics and art - basically you can take it as read that most artists in the period were either struggling or working for patrons - so not a lot of room for maneouvre (sp? hate that word) for most of them. There's a book by Francis Haskell on patronage in renaissance Italy which is very good; also I recommend that you have a look at Michael Baxandall's 'Painting and Experience in Fifteenth Century Italy', which has an excellent chapter on how materials and skills added to the worth of a picture. Peter Robb's biography of Caravaggio, M, is very interesting and should give a good window on what it might have been like to be a controversial painter.
 
 
lentil
13:07 / 01.02.02
<off topic/> I like being called lentilski </off topic>
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:04 / 01.02.02
Just quickly, as am bit busy: this is a good introductory list of Renaissance musics...
 
 
grant
14:58 / 01.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club:
Historical specificity is all-important with these things, innit.

BTW Grant - George I succeeded to the throne of England (and of Scotland, depending on how Jacobite you are) in 1714.


Damn krauts making me look bad....

* So *when* did Brunelleschi stretch his strings?

* I've heard said that Bach was really throwing back to the Renaissance in his musical style. Issat so?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:28 / 01.02.02
That's hard for me to say. Growing up and studying music the way I did, whenever I hear the word "barouqe" I immediately think Bach. It could very easily be the case that what I call Bach's "style" is very, very rennaisance influenced, but I haven't listened to nearly enough Rennaissance era music to be able to say anything with any certainy. I can usually pick a Bach piece out of a line-up, but I always just figured his music was so distinctive from others of his time because he was, y'know, a mad genius. Food for thought, though. I'm gonna have to find me some Rennaisance music and see for myself. Neat! New music ideas! Mirth!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:36 / 01.02.02
Would you guys say we're ready to move on to the French Revolution and it's effects on the following art movements? It'll be a whole new thread, so you'll still be able to throw new info in here if you think something neads to be cleared up. Thanks for all the help, fellas!
 
 
lentil
06:30 / 04.02.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:


* So *when* did Brunelleschi stretch his strings?



1410 - 1420, according to
this. Funnily enough, Brunelleschi's biographer says he "had made a hole in the panel.... which was as small as a lentil"
 
 
grant
14:30 / 05.02.02
I have vague memories of a David Burke documentary with I think Brunelleschi in some piazza with his new perspective painting, and some kind of hole/lens contraption with a canvas on a swing, so people would look through the hole at the piazza and then he'd swing the painting in front of them and they couldn't tell the difference.


On the Bach thing, I think it's more that he uses the regular, repeated forms and counterpoint of Renaissance music (especially dances). That kind of da-da-da-da-da thing, rather than the longer strains of Monteverdi or Vivaldi (daaaa-da-daaaa-da-daa-da-dat-da-da). But this is remembered from a Baroque music class I took nearly 15 years ago.
 
 
grant
14:32 / 05.02.02
Oh, and how did "baroque" come to mean either oddball/misshapen (as in baroque pearls) or overly ornamented?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:12 / 06.02.02
Well, 'barocco' means 'a misshapen pearl', so there's a little tautology in the phrase 'baroque pearl' for starters... I imagine it was because the term was used to describe things which should have been beautiful (from a Renaissance pt of view here) but which had elements of grotesquerie or elements used in an odd way. So - in architecture (which is the area I happen to know most about, sorry) you get things like the use of a giant order (rising over two or more storeys of a facade), weird spatial arrangements, broken pediments and so on - nothing like classical/Renaissance regularity.

Have a look at this pic (if I can get it right):


Not the greatest illustration in the world, but you can see that the front is an arrangement of alternating concave and convex elements, with a heavy central focus; weird spacing of the columns in the ground floor peristyle, and rather bizarre engaged columns in the upper story. We see it as a unity and can understand the building - partly because of familiarity - but to contemporaries it probably just looked all wrong.

Church is Santa Maria della Pace, in Rome, by Pietro Cortona, begun 1656.

Heavily ornamented - have you seen anything carved by Grinling Gibbons? The interiors of German baroque buildings can be pretty florid too...
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:34 / 06.02.02
This may sound dumb, but since Cathedrals took a god-awful long time to build, was it ever the case that one was started in one period and finished in another? And if not, wouldn't that be neat? Halfway up to the priest for communion, and all of a sudden you're a hundred years in the future.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Johnny the Zen bastard ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:21 / 06.02.02
Heh, yes. Actually, most cathedrals took ages - several hundred years in some cases, though there would have been long periods where there wasn't any actual work going on. There are tons of them in England where you have, say, a Norman chancel, a Perpendicular nave and a Decorated transept... if you think about Westminster Abbey, for example, you've got the crypts and so on dating back to Norman and in some cases Saxon (Edward the Confessor) times, the main body of the church in a fairly standard Gothic idiom, the Henry VII chapel (very decorated Tudor Gothic - lots of fancy fan-vaulting - and the towers on the west front are by Hawksmoor.

The difference with cathedrals which were started during and after the Renaissance is that, rather than being built in a piecemeal fashion (as and when there were funds) they would have been designed all in one piece by the architect - so, though St Paul's wasn't finished until after the death of Wren, it's still an entire conception and a coherent classical statement. Where one architect took over from another this could be different, of course (I think this may have happened with Michelangelo's work on St Peter's in Rome, actually - will check).
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:06 / 08.02.02
OK, I was slightly off the money there... according to the Catholic Encyclopaedia, Bramante designed the original basilica as a Greek cross with a dome; after he died (1514), various lesser architects mucked around with the plan a bit until Michelangelo took over in and returned to bramante's plan (and actually got the dome built - domes seem to have been the real tough test for architects in this period - see also Brunelleschi, Wren). His successors carried on building to the Greek cross plan until Paul V decided he wanted a long nave, which Modena added (Baroque facade here) and then Bernini farted around trying to add bell-towers. The encyclopaedia says:

quote:The longer they built the more they spoiled the original magnificent plans, so that the effect of the exterior as a whole is unsatisfactory. The principle mistake lies naturally in the fact that the unsuitable extension of the nave conceals the dome from one observing the basilica from a near point of view. Only at a considerable distance is Michelangelo's genial creation in its pure and beautiful design revealed to the astonished observer. All the external walls are constructed of splendid travertine, now become gold in colour, which even in bright sunlight gives a quiet, harmonious effect.


You can sort of see what they mean...



It's a bit OTT for me, but that's not really the point.
 
 
grant
18:51 / 12.02.02
Met an architect friend of mine over the weekend, and asked her when the architectural Baroque dawned, and without hesitating she said, "Copernicus. The ellipse over the circle."
This, in turn, led to a long discussion about time spent walking around chapels in Florence and double-centered city layouts and such.
For what that's worth....
 
  
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