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Alice in Sunderland: An Entertainment

 
 
Blake Head
21:17 / 06.06.07
Out for a bit now, but having waited around for the man to make it up here and get a signed copy Alice in Sunderland eventually made for interesting reading - some initial thoughts from miss wonderstarr and Gumbitch!!!11!! at the tail-end of this thread, which maybe we could develop on here?

For those who haven’t seen it, it’s an imposing graphic work looking at the relationship between Lewis Carroll, his muse, and the inspiration for the setting of Alice in Wonderland, but touching on the history of Sunderland and England, the nature of storytelling, the development of art that mixes words and pictures, Talbot’s own history, life, the universe and everything really. Individually it’s engrossing and brilliant, one of my favourite moments is when Talbot takes a few pages to give us a detailed examination and analysis of one of Hogarth’s satirical prints, mixing history, art criticism, irony and personal anecdote astutely. It’s also artistically, well, ambitious is probably the best word, mixing a variety of styles both on individual pages and when switching from one embedded story to the next, though black and white sketches of the narrator figure, photorealism and collage techniques predominate throughout.

I’d agree with Gumbitch that the book brings to mind the two Alan Moore stories collected in A Disease of Language, particularly in the staging and mix of psychogeography and personal memoir in The Birth Caul while in other ways it felt similar to the long scene of Gull’s pedagogic tour through London landmarks in From Hell. Unlike those works there’s a Scott McCloud (who makes a brief cameo) like author-narrator figure who makes the connections being suggested explicit. From slightly hazy memory with its mix of styles and alternative memoir of quirky comic artist guy theme it’s also slightly reminiscent of Eddie’ Campbell’s The Fate of the Artist. Again, like Gumbitch, I was aware that a lot of why it was working for me was that I was already reasonably interested in or curious about its core subjects (Lewis Carroll, the graphic medium, the author) and receptive to the medium being used to alternative ends, but the mixture of fascinating anecdotes, conjecture, didacticism and humour isn’t necessarily always comfortable; there’s nothing like the intensity or singularity of focus amidst unapologetic chaos of a work like The Adventures of Luther Arkwright present here.

The occasional moments when the book’s narrator is interrupted by the supporting “characters” were odd ones – they’re not really amusing enough to be independently worthwhile, not so annoying (to me) to ruin the overall effect, but they are an incongruous presence where I wouldn’t be surprised if they alienated or annoyed others. Talbot is explicitly evoking a link with the absurd and farcical (and with the bizarre rap that closes the book, the grotesque) although I think it’s questionable how possible it is to self-consciously inhabit “lowbrow” forms of humour when the author is imperfectly mimicking its effects and the audience for such humour is accordingly going to be more aware of the “point” of the interjections rather than their intended effect (well, probably).

It’s a schizophrenic book in more than just the sense that it’s drawn in a multiplicity of styles with a multiplicity of concerns: there’s a restless and almost undiscriminating need to make connections between the different histories of Sunderland, Carroll, the graphic format and Talbot himself that creates a whirling Phantasmagoria of observed relationships. And it’s fascinating. It’s not a book that would immediately have benefited just from greater (self) editing, the seeming disorganisation is clearly central to the mode of expression, but it’s questionable, as Talbot introduces yet another fleeting snapshot of a literary associate with ties to Sunderland and/or to himself, how much such a dramatic demonstration of the subjectivity, maybe even also the contingency, of written history and memoir would be indulged if the book was a serious one rather than an “entertainment”.

Again, I enjoyed the book, and for me I think Talbot keeps it (mostly) in control, but I’d be interested how much that experience would be repeated amongst other readers. So, my own rambling aside, who’s picked this up? What did you think?
 
 
sleazenation
22:02 / 06.06.07
I picked it up and am (slowly) working my way through it. I was going to wait til I finished it before I started a thread like this, that it has taken me so long (and I still haven't finished it) probably says something.

It's a hefty tome and quite rambling. Neither of these are bad things, in fact they are quite good things, but, unfortunately, I find it all too easy to read in dribs and drabs without getting swept up into the narrative as a whole... It's something that is eminently easy to dip into, it is also fairly rewarding when read in this fashion.
 
 
LDones
02:11 / 07.06.07
I'm just going to order this from Amazon. I've been half-heartedly looking for awhile, but can't find it in my neck of Los Angeles.

What I've heard is along similar lines to the above, that it's a wonderful jumble, a lovely train wreck. Looking forward to reading it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:47 / 07.06.07
It took me a little while to get in to it, I have the possibly heretical idea that Talbot may not be the greatest artist but sets out his pages beautifully, so once the show is underway I think it's beautiful, with the (possibly?) faux computer art look. There are possibly a few unnecessary bits, such as when 'Bryan' wakes up in the middle and has a vision of Scott McCloud. The bits done in the style of other artists work are lovely.
 
 
uncle retrospective
05:11 / 07.06.07
I was wondering how other people took to this, I lived in Sunderland for a few years so I found the city history incredible, I had no idea half of it. That and I didn't know the stage I picked up my degree was the stage Sid James died on! It's the kind of thing people should tell you.
 
 
Mark Parsons
01:48 / 08.06.07
I bought it as a gift for my wife after she got through her Masters' thesis process (GOD did that go on FOREVER!). She's just finished it and LOVED it very much (she collects modern Carroll editions). She is buying one for her pops, who lives in Brazil. I may read it down there, at the beach, in glorious Salvador. An odd mix, sunshine and sunderland...
 
 
Blake Head
18:09 / 13.06.07
I read it through in one night which I think helped, because I can imagine losing the sense of the whole thing if I was just reading it in pieces and struggling to (re)make all the connections. I don’t really know if I’d be able to judge how good an artist he is, certainly there’s a great deal of versatility in being able to imitate any number of artists as he does throughout. You got the feeling that (McCloud style) he was definitely simplifying his style in certain places, especially with his narrator, in order to boost comprehension. I wasn’t sure how the photo-realistic effects were done either, though checking the scenes in the “real” world of Talbot-as-author it looks like they’re painted, presumably working from photographs, though what the exact process would be I don’t know.
 
 
sleazenation
18:25 / 13.06.07
Just out of interest - how familiar are people with Talbot's work in general - his old underground stoner comics - The Adventures of Luther Arkwright (Arguably one of the first British Graphic Novels and a key inspiration to Alan moore, Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrison...)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:32 / 13.06.07
I've only read his Tale of One Bad Rat, so many years later that it wasn't a particularly original storyline, and have seen his work on The Killing Joke.
 
 
sleazenation
20:41 / 13.06.07
And you won't either because The Killing Joke was Brian Bolland, not Bryan Talbot...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:23 / 14.06.07
Luther Arkwright is a personal favourite, and One Bad Rat is pretty damn good too. I also loved his Nemesis The Warlock stuff (part of volume 3, if memory serves).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:24 / 14.06.07
(And Luther Arkwright almost certainly taught George M a lot about the *right* way to go about stealing from Moorcock...)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:51 / 14.06.07
The Killing Joke was Brian Bolland, not Bryan Talbot...

DED FROM SHAME.
 
 
Blake Head
13:00 / 14.06.07
Heh. The Tale of One Bad Rat which I loved, and Luther Arkwright are the main ones with me. I think the simplified style of Bad Rat is something you see traces of in Alice, although the narrative still outweighs the educational tool aspects. Has anyone read the second part to Luther Arkwright? I think the art's significantly different but no idea how the writing holds up.
 
 
Janean Patience
10:52 / 19.07.07
I'm halfway through this at the moment and, after looking forward to it for a year or more, I'm really struggling. Blake Head's analysis which begins this thread is right on the money. This is psychogeography as practised by Alan Moore and most successfully Iain Sinclair but without the magic. There's no through line, nothing much holding it together. A deluge of information, page after page mentioning someone who knew the Liddell family and who had a connection with a Sunderland building. I've lost the sense of it. And the strange interruptions, like the sequence with Bryan waking from a dream and the great stuff about Hogarth, seem randomly thrown in. It's exhausted my interest. London Orbital at twice the length didn't. Perhaps Talbot isn't crazy enough to carry this off.
 
 
_Boboss
12:14 / 19.07.07
just keep thinking 'dragons'
 
 
Janean Patience
13:05 / 19.07.07
Also good advice when playing The Adventure Game.

Gronda Gronda Your Highness
 
 
_Boboss
13:14 / 19.07.07
ooh, evaporated milk. might cook some up for my tea.
 
 
Janean Patience
09:12 / 08.08.07
A couple of weeks after finishing this I can barely remember it. The whole thing was desperately in need of a good editor to cut out the thousand irrelevancies because I was interested, honestly I was, in learning about Sunderland and Carroll but the deluge of names and minor coincidences struck me as Talbot exhausting his exhaustive research, crossing out every gobbet and factoid he'd come across. Even at the end he can't help but throw in a few names he'd discovered too late to include in the main narrative, such as it was. He wouldn't do this in his fiction, so why here?

The sheer length of the thing is because the artist has been able to create much of it on his computer, melding photos and evidence, and that's another problem. The many, many pages created like this with drawings of Bryan as our guide are visually unremarkable. I enjoyed the sequences with the Lambton Worm, with the kid nailing the flag to the mast, and the stuff about the Venerable Bede because they had visual texture. My eyes skated over the backgrounds on the other pages. They were too slick and there was nothing to read there; there was nothing which had any meaning in the wider context of the narrative.

There's a great book of about half the current length trapped inside Alice In Sunderland. In it we learn a lot more about our narrator and his personal relationship with the city, the driving force behind the book which is largely absent from its pages, and a lot less about the Liddell family. The facts about the city are drawn together and placed on a human scale by Bryan rather than just thrown at us in a torrent. Interconnections will be relevant to the narrative. Lewis Carroll will be a constant presence, not an excuse for the exploration of Sunderland who pops in and out of the book almost randomly. It will be much better.
 
 
doctorbeck
09:33 / 08.08.07
just finished too and so pleased to see the thread bumped, i really recommend this to anyone with even a passing interest in psychogeography, the sectret history of the north east, alice / lewis carrol and huge rambling stories

i really like the digressions and out of left field conections as i see them totally in the spirit of psychogeographical excursions through a city scape, the digressions, dead ends, musingsd and flights of fancy whee the hidden becomes revealed are part of the process for me,

saying that, a very uneven work artistically and agree that some of the narrative devices are annoying, but never mind the quality, just feel the width of that and enjoy the jounrey. would be my tip for appraching it, and hours of reading for under 20 quid. remarkable value for a comic.
 
 
Blake Head
23:48 / 26.08.07
Janean Patience: Interesting that you think it needs to be a shorter, better edited book. I know exactly where you’re coming from and at the same time I think that the book’s structure is purposefully constructed to resist that – that it is its disorientating, scene breaking connections, its mismatch of art, its quality of “too-muchness”, that’s one of the main messages the book tries to convey.

I was leafing through it the other day and there’s a bit when, mid Shakespearian quotation, the Talbot as narrator character starts moaning about getting old, going grey, losing memory, talent, vitality. And in any normal work we’d say that’s something extraordinarily informal, self-indulgent, distracting, something “not done” in a proper work, but there are so many repetitions of that sort of interruption to the main narrative that I think we’re supposed to question that idea of a perfectly controlled, contained, impersonal work of art and particularly in this case of looking at any person or place without looking at their larger context, and consequently the danger that the more you examine something the more the connections that can be made extend and multiply until your original point of reference is obscured.

In those terms I think you can either ignore or just subtly hint at the wider connections of the text, or you can embrace the other extreme and overload the text with an overwhelming level of connections. At least, I think that what Talbot is trying to do is suggest that the nature of studying both history and art is to allow us to perceive in a limited way the limitless connections that surround us, but that both forms aspire to move away from the controlled, ordered, pinhole camera tendencies of most of our observations to a view of art and history as necessarily encompassing the irrelevant, unnecessary, ephemeral, distasteful, excessive and decentralised moments that would otherwise be excluded. There were a couple of terms you used, JP, like “driving force” and “constant presence”, and even the absence of “meaning in the wider context of the narrative”, which (and they all seem like reasonable descriptions of what’s not there in the book) I think Talbot’s actually striving to avoid, because he’s trying to demonstrate the artificiality of those ideas when the camera pulls back a bit.

The problem, I suppose, is that once you’ve said that, you’ve pretty much given any author who (literally) loses the plot of his work to say “Aha! I didn’t actually lose control of the text, I was being clever and literary and demonstrating the ultimate unresolvability of the medium. So tough luck if you didn’t follow it chum!”. I’ve forgotten most if not all of the facts contained in Alice in Sunderland since reading it, but again I think that’s intentional – you’re not really expected to be able to recall the colourful swirl of information it contains – but I’m still genuinely pondering (beyond finding it entertaining at the time) whether I think Talbot makes a success of the book, with its didactic delivery and with its own share of bum notes and fluffed lines, when throughout that idea of success and permanent value is being opposed by those of transient entertainment, the imperfect nature of art and the generosity the reader has for the author’s imperfections, rather than the controlled skill of the author. I don’t think it’s insignificant that the interrupted speech from Henry V mentioned above, which starts as a plea for an almost perfect, all encompassing work of creation, for perfect actors and audience, would have had the narrator going on to say:

Piece out our imperfections with your thoughts:
Into a thousand parts divide one man,
And make imaginary puissance;
Think when we talk of horses that you see them
Printing their proud hoofs i’ the receiving earth;
For ’tis your thoughts that now must deck our kings,
Carry them here and there, jumping o’er times,
Turning the accomplishment of many years
Into an hour-glass: for the which supply,
Admit me Chorus to this history;
Who prologue-like your humble patience pray,
Gently to hear, kindly to judge, our play.


Sorry, I actually meant this to be a short reply when I started and I got carried away. As I said, I’m still thinking about it. I’m not actually trying to be annoyingly excessive myself.
 
 
teleute
13:27 / 27.08.07
I used to walk passed the Empire in Sunderland everyday on my way to work (though billeted in nearby Newcastle) and until I picked up this beautiful, disorientating book I had no idea about its history. As a native north eastener, I loved it, I love the sweeping scenery, the imagery tied in with Lewis Carroll, the geography (though I'm an ex political geography student - such things do exist!).

I adored it.
 
  
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