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Chickens!

 
  

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sorenson
23:15 / 04.06.07
My partner and I are going to get chickens! (excuse the royal 'we' in what follows, but it's very much a joint project.) It's all very exciting - we have a coop, and a spot in the garden, and we've checked that the neighbour that will be most affected won't mind. We are almost wetting ourselves at the thought of fresh eggs, poo for the garden, and their gentle clucky presence in the yard.

But we are having trouble deciding what breed to get. And so I turn to Barbelith for help - surely there must be a few chicken lovers out there? (Lovers of the live kind of chicken that is, not the dead.)

First we just assumed we'd get Isa Browns, but then we read a bit more and it seems that they are wont to fly, and we feel weird about getting a breed that has been so cynically bred for its commercial viability. So now we'd like to get some kind of heritage type breed, one that won't fly over the fence, that will lay a reasonable amount of eggs, and that will be friendly to small children. Current contenders are Australorps, Sussex or Orpington. Though I was just reading about Rhode Island Reds and they sound good too.

So, do any of you have experience with keeping any of these breeds? Any recommendations or warnings?
 
 
grant
01:20 / 05.06.07
We've got a Rhode Island Red and something we *think* is a Golden Comet.

The Mennonite farmer we bought it from wasn't sure, either. For us, the decision was really just what was around. Well, "around" being a kind of moveable feast. Francis, poor Francis, was a chick from the feed store who grew into a bantam Partridge Rock, I think. And, after a long while, started laying perfectly decent eggs.

Anyway, both of our chickens are perfectly happy, productive birds who don't fly over the fence and molest the neighbors.

I recently built a new coop - after the loss of Francis to a marauding raccoon (the coon came back for seconds, but the other birds were large and wily enough to elude the monkey-fox inside their home.

My coops are what Americans call chicken tractors and what the British call chicken arks - open floored things designed to be moved around. You don't have to shovel them out, and they fertilize the yard. This makes them less secure than other things, though. I think I've got something rat and raccoon proof now, though -- a big A-frame skirted with poultry mesh under that home fencing stuff and a blue tarp. (I make them large enough to walk into, which is something like four times as big as they need to be, and probably ten times as big as the thing the Mennonite dude kept his young chickens in.) The key really seems to be laying the fencing down on the ground around it to keep critters from digging in.

They eat a lot of scraps and, with Francis gone, we let them out essentially all day, so they eat less feed than they used to. Francis and our dogs didn't get along, so we used to only let 'em out once in a while.
 
 
This Sunday
01:30 / 05.06.07
Sussex are supposed to be pretty good. Well behaved, and they lay two to three eggs a week, which is decent for a chicken, all things considered.

I would suggest getting a full-size of whatever variety, though, if you're interested in eggs.

Also, I would caution against actual bantams (as in, not just a miniature of another breed), as like some breeds of little dog, there seems to be something innately pugnacious about them. If you value your shins or small children, there are just better options.
 
 
grant
01:35 / 05.06.07
Oh, and matsya has more experience than I. Ze liberated chooks from some commercial operation, and they're much happier now.

I think most "heritage" breeds are what they call dual-purpose breeds, aren't they? Eggs + meat? While "commercial" types are more one or the other.

We're not planning on eating our chickens, although what will happen once they stop laying is a bridge not yet crossed. The eggs are fine.

I'd love to get an aracauna or americauna - just for the blue eggs. (Martha Stewart keeps americaunas.)
 
 
sorenson
21:23 / 05.06.07
I thought about getting a chicken tractor type arrangement, but as I have spent the last 2 years killing all the lawn and replacing it with garden and paths, it just wouldn't be practical, so I have gone with a coop that will have a reasonably sized run around it, with both sunny and shady patches. And when I'm feeling brave I'll let them out into the rest of the garden under very close supervision!

I think we've finally decided on Australorps - they were developed in Australia out of Orpingtons early this century. They are big (which means they don't fly as much) and they are glossy black and beautiful. And they are meant to be good egg layers. The trick will be finding them - apparently they are a bit hard to get hold of. It's sad the way that the older domestic varieties are disappearing in favour of the commercially bred ones...a similar story to fruit and veg I guess.

Grant, how do your chickens get along? I was flirting with the idea of getting one each of a couple of different breeds, but I was worried that they wouldn't play nice together...
 
 
Ticker
22:51 / 05.06.07
One of my friends is now Queen of the Chickens and has Australorps. I shall ask her for in put.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:11 / 05.06.07
My family kept Bantams which are lovely and you get mini-eggs which are work out to half an egg. It doesn't make any difference to cooking, you just double the amount. They lay beautiful golden brown eggs with astonishingly yellow yolks, although I think that probably has more to do with being kept well than breed of hen.

Unless you plan on selling the eggs smaller hens can be smashing. I think even if you do want to sell they're smashing - I would buy Bantam eggs for certain and they're good layers so you get many eggs.

It sounds weird but lots of people say Bantams are more friendly than ordinary hens. I agree with that. They're more like pets which also lay eggs.

This book is supposed to be really good: Choosing and Keeping Chickens.

I am so jealous of your enough space.
 
 
Red Concrete
23:20 / 05.06.07
From my childhood memories of keeping chickens, a single cockrel is probably enough - there tends to be one rooster to rule them all, and the others end up cock-pecked. Also bear in mind that they make more noise than the females. Any crowing at all might not go down well in an urban garden. I've no clue what breeds they were, but we also kept bantams - and they certainly flew over fences, and tended to roam. To say they are pugnacious is an understatement - the tiny bantam cocks used to chase and mate with the bigger chickens (and the cockrel for that matter).
 
 
grant
00:32 / 06.06.07
The trick will be finding them - apparently they are a bit hard to get hold of.

This is a major problem. The smallest batches we've found specific breeds of chickens in is groups of 25 chicks from McMurray Hatchery. We don't have that kind of space, so we just is just whatever's around - the Mennonite dude was willing to sell a couple of what he had on his farm, and Francis was one of three chicks we bought at the feed store (one died, one turned out to be a rooster).

(Oh, and a rooster isn't necessary for eggs or discipline - Goldie does quite well as ruler of the roost.)

Different breeds get along fine. The issue is whether or not the birds recognize each others as members of the same flock -- there's a lot of advice out there about introducing new birds to a flock, but if you get two birds at the same time from the same place, it shouldn't even be an issue.

Oh, oh, and I've read that the yellowness of the eggs is due to freshness of the eggs and the good stuff (bugs, etc) home chickens eat.
 
 
grant
00:36 / 06.06.07
Hey! Wikipedia links to a place that sells batches of 3 chicks!!

Maybe those Americaunas are within reach after all....
 
 
sorenson
03:17 / 06.06.07
oh grant if only i was in America! is it hard to raise chicks though? i had thought i would try and get point-of-lay if i could, even though it is more expensive, just because i was worried about trying to keep little fluffy chicks alive in winter.

i hadn't even considered bantams, i must say. they are very cute though...

i'm now having an issue with the location of the coop in the back yard. my partner has done a whole lot of research and it seems that the semi-shady spot i was hoping to put them might be too damp and well, shady. apparently the coop is meant to run east/west with the door facing north and the floor sloping to the door - if i followed all these directions it would end up smack bang in the middle of my beautiful vege garden (not good)...do i really need to be that precise? surely they're a little bit tough...
 
 
Katherine
06:58 / 06.06.07
Not the same as chickens but a friend of mine managed to hatch two ducks from eggs and raise them. Apparently it was was very easy indeed and added bonus they were very tame as they were used to being handled from an early age. Made it easier to collect eggs from them.

Sadly he moved into a flat last year but a local farm took them as they were good breeding stock as they were a good breed.
 
 
grant
12:59 / 06.06.07
is it hard to raise chicks though?
Nah. The main thing is that sometimes they just die.

>snif<

The thing with chickens is that they eat everything, which can include indigestible bits of plastic, which can be dangerous for little ones. Also, I think there are a couple of common congenital problems that there's not much one can do about. (Or so I tell myself.)

At first, we kept ours indoors in a box with a tray of starter feed (it's ground up for easier digestion) and a bowl of water, and they did OK.

my partner has done a whole lot of research and it seems that the semi-shady spot i was hoping to put them might be too damp and well, shady.

Well, I'm in a fairly warm place, so I'm not positive my experience is the same as in someplace where it snows. But I wouldn't worry *too* much about that. Is it a cool spot in the garden?

By the way, how are you planning on protecting your vegetable patch when they're out on the prowl?

If you have the room, you could try the Balfour method - basically, rotating two plots of land the chickens are allowed access to. If you read any of John Seymour's self-reliance books (which I quite enjoy), you can see some diagrams, as well as good advice on the hardiness of chickens.
 
 
Ticker
14:53 / 06.06.07
from my friend and Queen of the Chickens:

i have a ridiculously long reply. apparently i can't shut up about
chickens if given the opportunity.

ok, i got lots to say about the chickens. i lurve mah chickens. they
are the greatest, silliest creatures. i learned most of what i know
from storey's
guide to raising chickens by gail demerow
. i also poured over the
murray mcmurray hatchery catalog (though i did not order from them due
to the 25 chick minimum) and lurking on the pastured poultry yahoo
group.

banties are popular today as pets, exhibition birds, and as
ornamentals that add colour to the yard. their eggs are smallish, but
i hear they are prolific layers, and taste just as good as the
rock-cornish commercial hybrids.

most of the breeds we know today have been developed since 1868 when
charles darwin published an inventory of chicken breeds existing at
the time - 13 of them! 12 have been recognized as endangered classics
by the american livestock breeds conservancy. they are ancona,
australorps, delaware, dominique, jersey giants, brown leghorns, black
minorcas, new hampshire (LFOD chickens!) barred plymouth rock, rhode
island red, and white wyandottes.

docile breeds: cochin, dorking, orpington, plymouth rock
flighty breeds: hamburg, lakenvelder, leghorn, polish
aggressive: aseel, cornish rocks, new hampshire cocks, rhode island red cocks

ameraucanas/araucanas are good flyers. most other breeds, especially
the larger ones, should not be able to make it over a 4 or 5 foot high
fence.

there is somewhat of a debate regarding the ameracauna/araucana
breeds. more on that on this site.

also feathersite is probably
the best place on the web for breed identification and breed research
in general.

there is a huge list of breeds that are good layers, a list of breeds
that are "dual-purpose" - meat and eggs, and breeds that are better
for meat, and breeds that are just plain purty. i chose a mixture of
both. i have 5 black sumatras (also endangered and rare, but not
recognized as such by the albc for some reason) and close descendants
of the original jungle fowl, a black australorp hen for good eggs, an
ameraucana for pretty eggs, two partridge plymouth rocks for good
eggs, and 6 "extra males shipped for warmth". yes, i know, weird. i
ordered from ideal
poultry
, who claims to have no minimum order. when they ship you
your day old chicks, they need to stay warm, and apparently 12 is
too few so i received 16! 6 roosters! that's 5 too many! the ideal
ratio is one roo to every 10 hens. quite a harem. guess that makes
up for being expendable huh guys?

interestingly, my roos are the most friendly and curious, along with
the plymouth rock hen. they follow me around the yard. they run at
me when i come outside and then pause, uncertain as to what to really
do once they reach my feet. i have one "lap-roo" who will hop on my
leg and sit for a spell. i've named him the The Major, due to a small
gouge in his comb that i can only attribute as a battle wound from
sparring with the other roos. i have a feeling The Major may escape
the stew-pot.....

ok i am rambling. i house them in a modified chicken tractor because
i live in freezing new hampshire. half is open, and half is enclosed
with a plywood floor. it is 4x4x12, with a square frame and a peaked
roof. i read somewhere that chickens don't like a-frames. can't
remember why, had something to do with the peak being a waste of space
as they find it uncomfortable to roost in or something. it takes 2 or
3 people to move, and i move it whenever they look like they need
fresh ground. next year, everywhere the coop has been will be
in-ground veggie gardens, thanks to the chicken poops. when winter
time comes i plan on surrounding the enclosed portion with haybales
for insulation.

to answer the question regarding does my coop need to face east west
with the doors pointing north and you have to paint it yellow and turn
it 360 degrees every new moon but only on sundays, no, you definitely
do not need to be that precise. pay attention to the microclimate in
your yard, and orient the coop as necessary to prevent drafts and too
much/not enough sun. hens need good light to lay, which may be why
production slows, if not comes to a halt in winter. some hens can lay
up to an egg a day. production will slacken after a year or two,
which is when commercial hens get whacked, sadly. (the saying "tough
old bird" comes from retired hens in the stew-pot) however some hens
may give you an egg a week up until they are 11 or 12 years old. yes,
chickens are a long-term commitment, unless you plan on eatin' em.
they should start to lay after about 5 or 6 months.

chicks are failry easy to brood. best time to start is in march or
april when its startting to get warm but is still cool enough to
prevent disease. they need a heat lamp, fresh chicken starter feed,
and water, which can be supplemented with vitamins and electrolytes on
a rotating basis. they need to be kept at 90-95 degrees the first
week, gradually decreasing the temp each week until it hits 70
degrees, at which time they should be fully feathered and ready fro
the outdoors. you can buy a brooder, surround an area on your floor
with cardboard, or put them in the bathtub, like i did. my
baby chicken pictures are here on my flickr page
, if you are
curious.

even though i live in an extremely rural area with coyotes, foxes,
hawks, and owls, i have had no predator problems as of yet, knock on
wood.

whew! ok, me shut up now. good luck with your chickens! feel free
to pm me if you have any more questions.
 
 
grant
17:44 / 06.06.07
How does the Queen handle rats?

I'm developing a grudge against rats.
 
 
Ticker
21:28 / 06.06.07
I believe she had them as pets.
 
 
Ticker
21:28 / 06.06.07
oh wait you mean in context of chickens?
 
 
grant
02:04 / 07.06.07
Yes. They poach mah feed. They soil mah nestin box.
 
 
Ticker
14:20 / 07.06.07
Well she has the services of two mighty feline hunters. They seem to get along fine with the chickens though.
 
 
grant
15:13 / 07.06.07
Mah cats need A GOOD TALKING TO.
 
 
sorenson
21:32 / 07.06.07
hmm, the neighbour did say we would have to watch out for rats. but my cat is a bit of a big hunter he-man (despite his lack of testicles), so hopefully he will do his duty.

we've found a few possible suppliers, but it seems we are trying to buy them at the wrong time of year, so there may be more of a delay than we'd hoped. but we found out that a community farm not far from us has a big flock of australorps so we're going to go check them out this weekend - will be fun!
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:08 / 07.06.07
I don't think you need to be too worried about where the coop is, if they'll be able to get out and hang out in the sun around the garden proper. As long as it's got shelter and a covered roost, and maybe a little patch of bare earth where they can dust-wash, they'll be fine.
 
 
grant
00:45 / 08.06.07
Heheheh -- my chuckns make their own bare patches of earth.
 
 
sorenson
00:19 / 12.06.07
chicken update - we have placed an order for four point-of-lay australorps. we pick them up in about a week. am terribly excited! this weekend will be all about fox-proofing and building a run.

just wanna say - thank you to everyone for all your helpful chicken advice. i love the way barbelith has the knowledge. will be posting again here soon i am sure!
 
 
Ticker
00:32 / 12.06.07
I feel entitled to pictures of your strange evolved dinosaurs.
MAKE. IT. HAPPEN.

you know, if it's not a hassle...
 
 
Triplets
00:49 / 12.06.07
Yes, we demand chicktures.
 
 
sorenson
02:09 / 12.06.07
ooh, there will be pictures galore! i will definitely share as soon as they arrive.
 
 
grant
02:15 / 12.06.07
Four? You are rich in chickens!
 
 
sorenson
04:08 / 12.06.07
well, we have room for them. and we love us our eggs. and if there any spare eggs we can always give them away to loved ones. i guess we are greedy, but i prefer to think of us as lucky!
 
 
sorenson
02:48 / 14.06.07
another chicken question! this weekend i have to fox and rat-proof the coop, so they'll be safe when they get here next week. i was thinking about getting some plastic coated wire mesh and attaching it to the coop as a floor. it'll be well covered in hay, so i don't think it will hurt their little feet, and also they'll be out of the coop during the day unless the weather is really awful. but it would be a helluva lot easier than digging down deep to put wire around the bottom, which was what i originally planned to do.

can any of you excellent chook-experts reassure me that it won't hurt their feet too much?
 
 
grant
14:48 / 14.06.07
What's the wire like? Thick?

If they're going to spend any time at all in there, they'll want to be scratching.
 
 
sorenson
21:34 / 14.06.07
well, the plan is that they'll be in there overnight (which is when they'll be most susceptible to foxes), and if the weather is really rotten, but most days they'll be let out into a pretty big run with lots of scratching and digging and pecking opportunities. i'll also let them into the wider vege garden when i feel it needs a bit of a turning over.

i hoped that if i kept a really thick layer of hay/straw over the top of the wire that it would still allow them scratching opportunities. but maybe i need to think a bit about setting the wire under 10-20cm of dirt...i would hate to deny them scratching even on bad-weather days...
 
 
Triplets
23:55 / 14.06.07
I think you're best putting the wire deep. I mean, not to be mean, but chickens are pretty thick. They'll want to scratch whether it's good for them or not.
 
 
grant
13:21 / 15.06.07
I've seen fairly thick grating in chicken houses before, as well as wooden floors with a layer of wood shavings/straw.

The wood floors *seem* better to me, but I don't have any up close experience with 'em.
 
 
sorenson
20:36 / 22.06.07
The girls have arrived! And they are beautiful... There are pictures on our blog (rather than clogging up the thread).

I solved the fox-proofing problem by attaching the wire to the bottom of the run, then filling it with about 5-10cm of stomped down dirt on top of the wire, and a good 10-20cm of straw on top of that - they don't seem to have scratched down to the wire yet, so hopefully that'll be fine.

Thanks so much for all your combined advice and help!
 
  

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