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The idea of "influence" in music.

All Acting Regiment

15:12 / 31.05.07

What does it mean for an artist or group to be influenced by another? What about claiming influence across different media, like certain crap indie bands claiming to be influenced by Rimbaud? Is there a difference between claiming influence and appearing to be influenced? Is there a difference between being influenced and being inspired? Between being influenced by X and appropriating X?

LCD soundsystem seem to be more inpspired than influenced by the things he's into - whereas a crap band like the Libertines seem "influenced". Am I talking crap? Quite possibly, but let's hear what you have to say about INFLUENCE.

15:36 / 31.05.07

Or how about being influenced to not sound like something? Derek Bailey's style was the result of many conscious decisions concerning what he didn't like and didn't want. Morton Feldman was famous for dissing the majority of his contemporaries, taking his cues from painters and bloody mindedly defining himself against the world. We spend a great deal of time discarding ideas, particularly any that make us sound the least bit post rock. The only downside to this is that you're constantly painting on a canvas of decreasing area and it's semantically ill-formed, you're constantly defining yourself by what you're not rather than what you are.

I like influence to be a conscious thing, a cold and calculating process that operates totally independent of fandom. But maybe that's because I've been influenced in that direction by the working methods of people I'm fanatical about.

17:09 / 31.05.07

What's interesting about James Murphy is that said inspiration has led to tunes that sound exactly like they're the product of the inspirational artist in question. Great Release on LCD Soundsystem is a perfect example: it sounds exactly like Another Green World era Eno.

I don't think that's a bad thing, by the way. I love LCD Soundsystem - All My Friends is one of my tunes of the moment - but it fascinates me that a) he's capable of such a precise duplication of form and style, and b)that he's happy to do it in the first place. It's like he's showing off, and giving huge props to the artist in question at the same time. Almost paradoxical.

Sorry, rambling slightly tipsy post there.

17:54 / 31.05.07

Must I defend The Libertines again?

All right, they were working off a set of influences that's fairly well-established (Kinks, Only Ones, Smiths etc) but that was fairly deliberate, seeing as a large part of their routine was a certain nostalgia for an England (or 'Albion' if you'd rather - I wouldn't, personally) that's long gone. Basically, it wouldn't work (to the extent that it does) if it was at all futuristic. They were into Tony Hancock, pints down the pub, smack in the toilets, and that kind of thing. They'd rather have been living thirty odd years ago, and their albums reflect that, for better or worse.

So I find their antics a bit more explicable than the outright 'Rock And Roll Suicide' pastiche that closes the new LCD Soundsystem album. I do like LCD Soundsystem, but I wonder if they aren't at their best when Murphy's being himself (on, say, 'Losing My Edge') rather than referencing Brian Eno, Iggy Pop and so on; really, people who arguably shouldn't matter that much to somebody who's on the dance scene, and presumably concerned with a more forward-looking agenda. At least it's sounded like he is the past, ironically enough.

18:22 / 31.05.07

Actually I am inclined to agree. I prefer LCD Soundsystem when he focusses on being himself.

Regrettable Juvenilia

19:39 / 31.05.07

LCD soundsystem seem to be more inpspired than influenced by the things he's into - whereas a crap band like the Libertines seem "influenced". Am I talking crap?

I dunno about 'crap', but you'll have to explain what you mean a bit to convince me you're not just using two different terms for a band you like and a band you don't...

08:14 / 01.06.07

LCD soundsystem seem to be more inpspired than influenced by the things he's into - whereas a crap band like the Libertines seem "influenced". Am I talking crap? Quite possibly, but let's hear what you have to say about INFLUENCE.

I would have thought that, as has been mentioned above, LCD have rather tended to bypass "inspired", go straight through "influenced" and arrive at "blatantly and knowingly aping".

That's my problem with them really, after their amazing run of singles (the longer, dancier ones I mean); I've got precious little time for an album that seems to aim primarily at an audience of blokes with 'good' record collections sitting w/ a finger on the skip button going "ah, here's the one that sounds like New Order, very good, ah, now here's the one that sounds like The Fall, smashing.." etc.

Whereas I would assume a group like The Libertines (not that I know/care a damn thing about them I shall make clear) are far more likely to start from some vague idea that they wanna be like The Clash or The Smiths or whoever, and then just bash out whatever music comes naturally to them in the hope of capturing the same 'spirit'... thus making them far better contenders for "inspiration" (as opposed to "influence") than LCD, regardless of their failure to produce anything of worth.

Oddly, one thing the two bands seem to have in common (along with a lot of other currently popular music), is their unthinking canonization of a pantheon of "legendary" 70s/80s bands, slightly artier ones in LCD's case but some difference, whom I personally have never much cared for the first time around, let alone their watered down copyists.

10:15 / 01.06.07

You don't like The Fall or Eno? And to think I thought of you as a speshul guy....

10:30 / 01.06.07

Well actually, yeah, I was over-stating things slightly, I do like Eno loads, and appreciate The Fall a lot too, although they're not really "my" band.

I was thinking more along the lines of The Clash, The Smiths, The Cure, Joy Division etc. and their status as untouchable icons to the current wave of indie chancers in the same boring way that The Beatles, Dylan and Led Zep were to previous generations.

All Acting Regiment

10:46 / 01.06.07

Oddly, one thing the two bands seem to have in common (along with a lot of other currently popular music), is their unthinking canonization of a pantheon of "legendary" 70s/80s bands, slightly artier ones in LCD's case but some difference, whom I personally have never much cared for the first time around, let alone their watered down copyists.

Yes - I've been thinking about a similar thing. How these "classic indie" bands are forming a sort of Other Canon next to, and sometimes overlapping with, the one that includes Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan and Guns and Roses - and pretty much as boring in that Observer Music Monthly/Artrocker Magazine context.

Example - I will always like Joy Division for Joy Division, but seeing them touted on someone's myspace page as (sic) "I'm into Joy Division, not that nasty chav stuff" makes me a bit headsick.

And also - how these (I presume you mean) 70s/80s New Wave and indie bands were actually very challenging at the time - and of course some still are - but now, of all the influences a young band/posse/whatever in 2007 could choose, they're choosing probably the least troubling of them - you hear a Joy Division/New Order influence but Orange Juice? Slits? Richard Hell? Suicide? Not so much. It's basically straight/white/male all the way, when in reality the sort of stuff in that Rip it Up and Start Again book is amazing for its diversity.

Together with the sort of reification and pushing-together-of-a-complex-and-often-contradictory-scene, this seems a bit sad...as if the only thing New Wave did was pre-empting the Kooks.

And of course, white people from the 70s = much safer influence for NME/Campus Tours world than black people from, well, whenever.

11:03 / 01.06.07

- but now, of all the influences a young band/posse/whatever in 2007 could choose, they're choosing probably the least troubling of them - you hear a Joy Division/New Order influence but Orange Juice? Slits? Richard Hell? Suicide? Not so much.

...hmmm- isn't this the record labels doing? investing money in something that will sell rather than blaming teh kidz.

I get slightly more offended by labels bandwagoning- every label has signed its own version of The Arctic Monkeys/ Libertines with diminishing success (the top end you've got the Kooks and down the bottom Milburn, The Rifles, and Mummra)

11:04 / 01.06.07

I don't necessarily disagree, but I suppose it's interesting that a band like Joy Division can be seen as an untroubling influence these days. I wonder if, say, Mastercard wouldn't quite happily use something like 'She's Lost Control' in one of their ads - it would be upbeat, and set in Selfridges for maximum product synergy.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:12 / 01.06.07

First Direct already used Atmosphere about ten years or so back...

12:35 / 01.06.07

I'm now off to buy Rip It Up and Start Again

Those of you that haven't need to go get England's Dreaming

13:00 / 01.06.07

Together with the sort of reification and pushing-together-of-a-complex-and-often-contradictory-scene, this seems a bit sad...as if the only thing New Wave did was pre-empting the Kooks.

And of course, white people from the 70s = much safer influence for NME/Campus Tours world than black people from, well, whenever.

Yes, this actually brings up two slightly dubious rock music rules-of-thumb;

1. At any given time, what was 'cutting edge' 20-25 years ago = mainstream today.

2. The old "good black music > good white music > bad white music" argument.

Eg, 25 years ago, Gang Of Four, The Pop Group and The Slits take a chance and play their bass and drums like the guys in funk and reggae bands. In 2004 a whole bunch of bands take absolutely no chance and play their bass and drums like Gang of Four (but not the other two, cos they're weird). Mainstream media flips out, declares dawn of "indie you can dance to", and here we all are.

13:28 / 01.06.07

I'm now off to buy Rip It Up and Start Again

apologies for the slight threadrot- but i actually found this book rather tedious. I love many of the bands that it talks about and checked out many of those that i didn't know... but the subject matter is so broad and the writing is so dull- not a patch on either Please Kill Me or Englands Dreaming- more like a "who's who of new wave" with a couple of half explaned annecdotes told through a series of rather tenuous links...

In 2004 a whole bunch of bands take absolutely no chance and play their bass and drums like Gang of Four (but not the other two, cos they're weird). Mainstream media flips out, declares dawn of "indie you can dance to", and here we all are.

The whole indie you can dance to seems to come and go - surely the whole Madchester vibe was influenced as much by New Order as A Certain Ratio, predating The whole DFA and Rapture thing by years.

Gang of Four have been celebrated for years by the likes of Fugazi, The Minutemen and even The Red Hot Chili Peppers (i think Andy Gill produced the first chilli peppers album..)- i don't think their infuence is anything new. Maybe just new to this generation...

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:08 / 01.06.07

I'm not entirely sure either why we keep citing groups full of straight white men as bold opposites to the straight white maleness of modern indie. Is Ari Up really the only woman available? Does the fact that she had dreadlocks strictly speaking make her a challenge to hegemony? And if half-inching basslines from black people is all it takes to join the forces of good, should we not also be celebrating Jamiroquai, UB40 and Simply Red? I am confused...

I am not confused about Simon Reynolds.

Don't let M.I.A.'s brown skin throw you off.

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:19 / 01.06.07

Don't give that man any money, Boboss.

15:35 / 01.06.07

So what bands that are around at the moment are casting their net wider for influences? What's turning people on at the moment in terms of bands that aren't recycling from the already familiar?

All Acting Regiment

15:52 / 01.06.07

M.I.A. - there's all sorts of urban/club stuff going into her latest, but on top of that she's also been around Asia sampling and mixing, which is why it rules.

A lot of the Big Pop is pretty good at being eclectic (Stefani?).

Hmm...Simian Mobile Disco, Justice, Teenagers, and so on...perhaps. House music with a slightly skewed aesthetic. Don't want to bring New Rafuckoff into this though.

Spank Rock! 8-bit, sounds of gameboys.

Patrick Wolf. Children's music, comedy music.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:57 / 01.06.07

M.I.A. - there's all sorts of urban/club stuff going into her latest, but on top of that she's also been around Asia sampling and mixing, which is why it rules.

Don't let her brown skin throw you off, Legs.

17:41 / 01.06.07

(I didn't give the man any money. I decided to spend it on the pub instead)

17:59 / 01.06.07

Haus:

I am not confused about Simon Reynolds.

Don't let M.I.A.'s brown skin throw you off."

[thread rot] Has anyone ever taken him to task for that? I mean, has he ever been asked to account for it in public? [/thread rot]

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

18:52 / 01.06.07

What does it mean for an artist or group to be influenced by another?

Feeling a bit lost, have only heard of about 1/2 of the bands mentioned here...my experience of this sort of thing, in terms of process, comes mainly from blues and blues-based rock.

Lots of good replies here though. In terms of process, though, what does it mean to be influenced by an artist? Well, for an example, when little Stevie Ray Vaughn was learning to play blues guitar, who was he listening to? Anyone who has heard him play will know the answer (Hendrix), because it's glaringly obvious in his music. You can see Hendrix's thumbprint in SRV's brain.

A more concrete answer would be that Vaughn learned to employ techniques, patterns and methods used by Hendrix, and learned to do this by playing his songs over and over again as practice. No one would call this "aping", because SRV obviously developed his own unique style (while still reminding everyone of Hendrix), which is still being ripped off today.

A good example of "aping" would be a hack named Kenny Wayne Shepherd. The son of a music producer, Kenny Wayne Shepherd is not just influenced by SRV--as in, keeps his methods and techniques in mind when developing his own style--he blantantly rips off licks and solos, even SRV's signature tone. If you were to remove all the SRV from Shepherd, there would be nothing left (I haven't heard Shepherd play in years--he may have developed his own style since then, but I seriously doubt it).

Blues is an easy medium to spot this sort of thing, as it's a very personal style of music. You'll hear a lot of people say there's really only one or two blues songs and a million different people playing them, which helps individual styles stick out a lot more.

I imagine it's a lot harder to draw the line between "inspiration" and "influence" in ensembles without going into the processes whereby the music is actually put together. I used to think The Pillows were influenced by The Pixies, and was very proud of myself for spotting this, until I heard "woah yeah" eventually seque into "Here comes your man". Which is sort of a big indicator. Kinda hard not to notice that. Also, apparently everyone claims to be influenced by The Pixies (it's only fair, I guess, 'cause they're great), so no points for me there.

09:32 / 02.06.07

Answer to threadrot:

[thread rot] Has anyone ever taken him to task for that? I mean, has he ever been asked to account for it in public? [/thread rot]

If you check out the Dissensus board, there's several threads over there debating the opinions of Reynolds and others r.e. MIA.

All Acting Regiment

12:58 / 03.06.07

Could you link? Can't seem to search Dissensus without registering, and can't seem to register there either.

Just to add another group who take on varied influences - what about Outkast? There's a whole mass of stuff going into their look and sound - the Prohibition era, the 50s, Funkadelic...

Brian Eno, as well, I guess.

And I suppose Enoism and Hip-Hop are two of the points where we could look at the effect on "influence" of the invention of sampling. Except I'm not properly up on Hip-Hop history or the mechanics of sampling, so if anyone has any ideas...

Phex: Dorset Doom

15:59 / 03.06.07

Enoism? Is word?

16:59 / 03.06.07

Could someone delete that post?

18:23 / 03.06.07

As you request. Have moved for deletion etc etc.

08:08 / 04.06.07

REynolds original comments

MIA thread from Dissensus

All Acting Regiment

12:59 / 05.06.07

Thanks for those. Wow, the comment was worse than I thought.

Have we talked about technology influencing music? This is something I find really interesting - not only how new internet capabilities are opening up new ways of making and getting music, but also things from the past that show it's always been happening, like with Mendelsohn's Hebrides overture:

Mendelssohn first travelled to England at the invitation of a German lord to mark the former's twentieth birthday.[1] Following his tour of England, Mendelssohn proceeded to Scotland, where he composed his symphony number 3, the Scottish Symphony. During his travels in the country, though, he visited the Hebrides islands during one stormy night and came to the island of Staffa, where he was inspired by Fingal's Cave, a popular tourist attraction. The cave at that time was approximately 35 feet high and over 200 feet deep, and contained colorful pillars of basalt.[2] He immediately wrote down what would become the opening theme of the overture, and wrote to his sister, Fanny Mendelssohn: "In order to make you understand how extraordinary The Hebrides affected me, I send you the following, which came into my head there."[2]

The work was completed on December 16, 1830[3] and was originally entitled Die einsame Insel, or The Lonely Island.[1] However, Mendelssohn later revised the score, completing it by June 20, 1832,[3] and retitled the music Die Hebriden, or The Hebrides.[1] Despite this, the title of Fingal's Cave was also used: on the orchestral parts, he labelled the music The Hebrides, but on the score, Mendelssohn labelled the music Fingal's Cave.[2] The overture was premiered on May 14, 1832 in London,[3] in a concert that also featured Mendelssohn's Overture to A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Where technology comes into this is that it was the newly invented passenger steamboat that allowed Mendellsohn to go out and get inspired - a sailing ship expedition would have been far too fraught to allow land people on board. So technology brought the artist to the inspiration.

14:36 / 08.06.07

Link to interview with Reynolds' about his new book.

He makes some interesting points about crossover between black and white music, but I am really not sure about his other points particularly re. Hip Hop. He's also consciously "a "rockist" - whatever unique spin he takes on it. I like the fact that he's thought so hard about his position, but am unsure of his conclusions. I'm sure the book will be a stimulating" read.

All Acting Regiment

15:05 / 08.06.07

I hate it when this happens - I loved Rip it Up and Start Again, but now the guy's saying stuff like this:

I would diagnose the more fanatical end of anti-rockism (commonly known as
Poptimism or Pop-ism, as opposed to the more sensible, if tepid, generalist position that a lot of professional critics adopt, a/k/a non-commital eclecticism), I would diagnose it in terms of generational ressentiment. It’s directed at the Sixties, at post-punk, at rave, at the early pre-corporatized days of rap - there’s an impulseto discredit all these moments when music really was a cultural force by invalidating the terms in which they were understood to matter.

Which is missing the point of Poptimism entirely - Poptimism being a state of mind which realises that context is everything, that everything can "really be a cultural force" in some way. Even Paris Hilton, who he scoffs at.

17:10 / 08.06.07

I'd disagree with that to a degree, Allecto (though I haven't given his comments full consideration, yet, not sure what to make of all of 'em.) "I was there" for the early raving years, and Hip Hop and the surrounding culture was a massive influence on me also - and it was different from "poptimism" as I understand it. At the time, raving in particular was a massive cultural shift which seemed to touch everything. It was much more powerful and significant than the celebration of pop music I see in poptimism. As I mention in the thread linked, I really thought it'd change the world (maybe it did?)He's got that right, in my book.

I disagree with him insofar as I don't think poptimism comes out of an urge to invalidate the significance of these movements on behalf of "the kids" - that sounds like the talk of a curmudgeonly old man. I would've said it, instead, from the simple urge to want to celebrate some great music.