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Underground > Creation >

Advice on English usage

14:41 / 25.05.07

So I have been trying to come back to the poetry game lately, and, um, I have a doubt about the say syntactical orthodoxy of a certain passage (by which I mean is said passage both acceptable and understandable - albeit probably sounding archaic - as a variation of the structurally legit form "adjective + substantive"?). I have found a nice piece about the order of adjectives here, but this page really doesn't offer much advice on the adjective+substantive thing, so I figured I'd show you the problematic piece and you could give me some pointers.

"And then what?", you ask. Why, then huuugs!, I say.

Here goes nothing:

Lux æterna

so is blind hope entwined,
like a coarse candle wick
that is weaved from the lick
of the tongue to the tip
of the aging gum ridge
and the pursing of lips
which serves as a bridge
to the velar plosive
and the extinguishing hiss
of a candle votive...

(cont.)

So the line I need help with is this last one, "of a candle votive". Because the "proper" usage would have to be "votive candle", right?, but there's no way I'm giving up on that rhyme, so, er, tell me how wrong the beastie sounds the way I did it, please?

Thanks a bunch. And let me add a proleptically placed:

Huuugs!

Hallo, Paper Spaceboy

14:57 / 25.05.07

Well, it's a bit archaic but the construction still works to a certain extent, particularly when applied to poetry. Poets have a long history of saucily mutilating the rules of grammar for effect, which is where elided syllables come from. The rhythms of the rest of the poem justify it, particularly because they also have a slightly older feel to them. I say go for it.

15:22 / 25.05.07

You might consider replacing "candle" with an adjective, making "votive" stand in for a noun.

21:46 / 25.05.07

Thanks a lot, guys. Now c'mere. Don't be shy now c'mere...

Huuugs!

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:14 / 25.05.07

If you want to use grammar twisted, you can, of course. It will sound a bit like you are writing a magic spell for a D&D campaign, but whatever makes you happy, really.

19:58 / 26.05.07

Well, Haus, that's exactly the point and the reason I asked opinions in the first place: To see how people would respond to that usage, to try and grasp not if that construciton sounded jarring, but how jarring that would sound. And your response is quite useful, if maybe unnecessarily mean (all is forgiven, I cannot contain the hugs) - that's so not the effect I'm going for. So I'll try something else - I'll let you know when I find something. Thanks, I mean, huuugs (ok, enough with the huuugs thing).

22:21 / 26.05.07

I've suggested this be moved to Creation, d.v., because I don't see it being about much other than your poem, which incidentally (to follow grant's advice) has the word 'candle' in twice and that never works for me in such a short space.

22:44 / 26.05.07

Thanks, Falke, and sorry for the mix-up. I was so fixated upon the generalness of the "english usage" approach, I didn't consider that the subsequent discussion would inevitably narrow down to specifics about the poem. Sorry and thanks again.

Kiltartan Cross

16:11 / 27.05.07

I couldn't help but read it as "of a candle, votive", that is, "of a candle which is being offered" as opposed to "of a candle (of the type that is offered". So, ah, quite jarring; Grant's suggestion seems good.

11:14 / 28.05.07

Good thing about the thread transfer is that it goes a great length to subside my qualms about posting the completed piece.

In regards to grant's suggestion, I'd be willing to try it, but I can't seem to be able to do it on my own - I don't know how to - the only usage for "votive" as a noun I could find was a type of hymn, which would verily crumble the cherished connection between the poem's theme and the image of perishing light. Any ideas, I'm listening. The solution I found relies entirely on punctuation to work. It goes like this (my idea, incidentally, being to make a piece for each part of the requiem mass):

Lux Æterna

So is blind hope entwined,
like a coarse candle wick
that is weaved from the lick
of the tongue to the tip
of the aging gum ridge;
from the pursing of lips -
when it serves as a bridge
to the velar plosive;
the extinguishing hiss
of a candle - votive,
untimely snuffed
and sorely missed.