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Underground > Temple >

Making Magic to Sell?

11:41 / 24.05.07

So, pretty bad head-funk here. I'm going to have type my thoughts out unprocessed. Can you guys help me?

I like doing my totems and other people seem to like them too.

I've had suggestions that I should put some of them on T-shirts or posters and try and sell them for money. I am torn regarding this. I would like to have money. I don't have a lot of money. I would like to use whatever skills I do have to make money.

I just don't know how They would feel about it. Or You.

Magic's a fairly personal business and I've never really liked the way it's sold or marketed or just generally abused for the sake of cash. Tarot cards sell... but that's okay because it's an old system with many people taking it on and changing it to suit their own themes and obsessions, they aren't making the magic by making the cards, the users of the cards are.

My totems are fairly personal to me. Pretty much the whole point of the magical exercise is to draw the totem yourself, the act of drawing the spirit establishes the connection. So, selling *mine* as a magical tool would be a deception. For a totem to be any use to you or the spirit you're trying to get hold of, you're way better off drawing your own.

Am I wrong?

Blast away...

12:18 / 24.05.07

[This should really be in the Temple, I feel.]

I just don't know how They would feel about it.

You should ask them. You should definitely, definitely ask them.

My totems are fairly personal to me. Pretty much the whole point of the magical exercise is to draw the totem yourself, the act of drawing the spirit establishes the connection. So, selling *mine* as a magical tool would be a deception. For a totem to be any use to you or the spirit you're trying to get hold of, you're way better off drawing your own.

Are you intending to sell the t-shirts/posters/etc. as magical tools?

12:24 / 24.05.07

Don't see that it hurts anything, myself. Depending on the nature and arrangements surrounding those totem designs, the ways in which you can market them may be limited, but unless there's something more at work than a concern commerce will kill the potency... I'd say knock yourself out.

If there is something specific or major factor holding you back, even a bit of just feeling really unhappy with it, or hesitant, then I'd say you might not want to. But, still, it's your call.

Heck, work the marketing or mass-production into a spell, why not? Imagine ten slightly modified versions of your ten-tined stag on t-shirts, establishing some interal depth field, the modifications resonating with one another to imply some superstag design. I'm just throwing something out, of course, but whether you sell your personal, sell some nonpersonal, or don't sell at all, look at how and why and have fun with it. Make it all work for you.

Closed for Business Time

12:25 / 24.05.07

Hell, I'll buy a T-shirt off you if it has that cat-totem on it. Leo, me.

12:46 / 24.05.07

You should ask them. You should definitely, definitely ask them.

I have, with limited success.

Spider's fine with it. Fox thinks it's a great idea and is jumping up and down at the prospect. Badger refuses to discuss it point blank and Heron has no problem with other spirits going out through this channel but he himself has respectfully declined the opportunity.

The rest of them have yet to make their feelings known.

Hm.

(Yes, on reflection, this probably should be in the Temple...will make a mod request...)

MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!

12:51 / 24.05.07

If this gets moved to Temple, pinging The Fool might be a good idea; he does sigil t-shirts and desktops and may already have wrestled with some of these same issues.

Closed for Business Time

13:00 / 24.05.07

What does Cat say, if you've asked?

13:01 / 24.05.07

Are you intending to sell the t-shirts/posters/etc. as magical tools?

I have had a revelation and realised that if I don't include the names and the focussing diagrams then... they're *not* magical tools...

Closed for Business Time

13:04 / 24.05.07

The rest of them have yet to make their feelings known.

Sorry. I haz no attenshun.

13:07 / 24.05.07

What does Cat say, if you've asked?

I need to finish drawing him before I can ask him. I've only recently begun with Cat.

13:15 / 24.05.07

I have had a revelation and realised that if I don't include the names and the focussing diagrams then... they're *not* magical tools...

Well I for one think it would be better for them to be put into the world as functional magical items.

You see from my POV, too many artists separate their scared experience from their commerical lives. It's tailoring their product ot fit the market but IMO it's ass backwards.

We should as magician artists be creating products people want and say upfront: "This is the magical/sacred way this item can operate." Not the only way mind you, but it's a combination of Pride in who and what we are and Who and What we work with.

As a storyteller it's been easy enough to say 'yeah it's just a story' when I perform and much harder to say 'this is a sacred story which has a function in a magical context'. So I'm right there with you on mulling it over.

Not to get all up on you, but I believe if you are going to source magical work for a living or as a supplemental income it's perfectly fine to also set an example of someone who is integrating the sacred and practical.

Garments, art, and tools were all once were viewed as both practical and holy. There really isn't any reason why a t-shirt designed with intent cannot be sold as a tool and ornamentation.

14:10 / 24.05.07

I'm in agreement with XK, which doesn't surprise me, XK's words normally elicit agreement from me.

I'd be tempted to use the designs of the animals who want to play in that manner, to start out with. I'd also be tempted to ask them to work with you on designs that can be less personal, designs for more people, and go with how they, and you, feel.

If some want to play magically I can't see a problem with that, some people cannot get their heads round creating images that work for them, and you would be doing a service for these people. Which does deserve some renumeration, simply because money is our means of survival and if the spirits are happy with it then you've helped people.

Good luck, by the way.

A little off topic... Something I did recently in a group was try talking to the spirit of money, first doing automatic writing on how I felt towards it, then on what it has to say to me. One person made a wonderful observation afterwards; money likes helping us, its happy to be with us and really grateful that it gets to help as thats what it was made for... (plus it doesn't see the problems of a lack of money as it isn't there, so it thinks it only helps us). I think that perhaps working with the spirit of money is a good idea given the amount of problems people have with money, but thats a general thought.

17:13 / 24.05.07

Thanks everyone, this has been a big help.

I may well give it a go, then. (If Fox's psychic inbox gets crammed with spam, it's his own fault!)

Breeches, I hadn't seriously considered the perspective you've brought to this. I guess there's some fairly tightly packed stuff I hadn't looked at. There was some fear of scepticism hidden away in me that I wasn't fully aware of until your positivity called it out, many thanks!

17:51 / 24.05.07

Awesome.

Plus, you know, I prefer supporting people who are doing what they love.

...which means you'd best post a link to your wares!

On a slightly more grim note the waste management thread in convo has gotten me thinking about what I can do to be more green. I think about it often but the articles in there have really smacked me in the head. In terms of magical products I'm thinking what it would be like to live in a world where everything we used was appreciated as a creation of a skilled artist expressing their relationship/perception of reality?

For example I try not to buy my clothes from sweatshops and Countries known to abuse labor and other ills and made from earth friendly material. But what if I went the extra step of only buying clothes from people who were actively trying to put something good into the world?

In Ayurvedic medicine they discuss only eating food grown/harvested/prepared with love and good will as a goal. That seems like a pretty magical meal to me right there. If I could do that with t-shirts and other daily garments that would be pretty kick ass.

Which leads me to add it would be ideal if these t-shirts, poster, etc were on earth friendly materials. I understand that may make them more expensive but I think it would be keeping in line with their function.

20:54 / 24.05.07

It would absolutely no sense whatsoever to ask any of them to adorn a T-shirt brought about by a process that was buggering up their home, would it?

Sourcing non-screwed up fabric might be make things a little more expensive but given that the end product would be an attempt to establish a deeper connection with natural forces, you're right, there's really no other way to go.

20:59 / 24.05.07

The whole 'don't live off magic' thing is weird if you ask me. Yoga teachers live off yoga, artists live off their art if they're any good. I'd rather someone was doing magic for people or selling magical T-Shirts than working in the stock exchange. If you have a talent you should use it and in this modern world where we no longer barter our skills (much) money is the only way you get bread.

12:54 / 27.05.07

What does Cat say, if you've asked?

Have spoke to Cat. He say yes. Actually, he say: "Of course, what a ridiculous question."

Also he say kittehspeak is what humans talk like when they are near him cos he is so beautiful he makes them feel all monkey and stupid.

13:08 / 27.05.07

The whole 'don't live off magic' thing is weird if you ask me.

I know, it's not a very well unpacked thought, to be honest. Perhaps the feeling is merely because the things I do for their own sakes feel more magical? Also, there's probably some conflation going on about the rules of money getting mixed up with what I feel are the rules of my magic. I can't guarantee that spells will work, I can't always bring about what I want, so is it right for me to sell something that doesn't always work?

When we buy something we expect it to be efficacious, but one has to be open and receptive to the natural forces of the world to feel and if there's a toad sitting in my head counting the benefits of the work to me it sometimes spoils it. Would this not be the case with other practitioners?

Maybe this is more like something I need to work on in *myself*. Maybe it's just a confidence thing...

11:20 / 28.05.07

Can I have a T-shirt yet?

Closed for Business Time

11:22 / 28.05.07

We monkeys must PAY for t-shirts. Duh. Sibelian, your Cat ist lovely.

15:32 / 28.05.07

Will sort. WILL SORT...

...after journal submission. Thoughts bubbling to surface...

*

16:05 / 28.05.07

When you get back around to it, maybe it will help to think about the fact that some people benefit from paying for things; the exchange of energy makes them treasure it, and "activates" it for them in a way. We've gotten so accustomed to the idea that something isn't ours unless we pay for it that the act of paying for something has taken on significance. I noticed this firsthand recently—I bought a bed from people moving out of my new home. I paid for it last week, with the understanding that I'd move in on the first. They moved out early, but the person who previously owned the bed I paid for is letting a friend of hers sleep there until the first. This bothers me immensely for reasons I cannot fully justify. After all, if she had not moved out last week, she would be sleeping in the bed that I paid for, which would be fine because it's rightfully hers until I move in on the first. But the act of paying money for the bed has made it mine in a way that just agreeing to take it when they move out would not have. Similarly, I think the exchange of money for a magical device for some people can make it theirs in a way that just finding it or being given it would not.

17:06 / 28.05.07

ID: That's very true. I know one of my friends who's studied a lot of trads is adamant when it comes to tools or items to be used in magic, there has to be an exchange of some type (a service or money) even if it's not equivalent exchange, so that the item doesn't come back to you and that it's really YOURS, not just borrowed.

13:29 / 30.05.07

I posted Mouse to the Totem Thread. And...

Mouse has just manifested himself in the form of one my cat Hamish's toys. He has lots of manifestations brought in by Hamish but this one ran towards ME for protection.

I picked him up and he sat and cleaned his whiskers quite patiently in the palm of my hand as I rescued him from Cat, (who appears to have forgiven me already). He clambered up my sleeve, entirely unafraid.

I took him outside and deposited him by the river, under the watchful eye of Heron, who was standing in the middle of it.

(xpost to Creation).

13:41 / 30.05.07

Can I buy a T-shirt yet? (yes, I will keep doing this)

Closed for Business Time

13:50 / 30.05.07

Me me me me me me tooooooo!!! Me wontz Kitteh!

13:55 / 30.05.07

I PM you!

13:55 / 30.05.07

Both of you!

13:41 / 09.06.07

[M] And strictly keep to the Old Law, never accept money for the use of the art. It is Christian priests and sorcerers who accept money for the use of their Arts, and they sell Dwale and evil love spells and pardons to let men scape from their sins. [75] Be not as these. Be not as these. If you accept not money, you will be free of temptation to use the Art for evil causes.

From; "The Old Laws"

I found this and thought it might be relevent.* Is this another place where issues with accepting money for magic comes from? A lot of things today come from odd references written by people believed to be an authority, such as Gardner on Wicca I assume, without saying where they are from. Such as; don't accept money.

I find the reasoning of; "because then you won't be tempted to misude it", vaguely compelling, but only vaguely as, as noted in the responsibility threads, if you are practising magic surely you should have some notion of personal responsibility, and I'd hope that would come with the ability to say "no, I don't want to be involved in cursing your cousin." Just as many people would refuse to beat someone up for however-much money.

*Needless to say, I totally disagree with it.

Mako is a hungry fish

14:03 / 09.06.07

I've encountered similar thoughts to that in regards to teaching or practicing Reiki, with the strongest arguement put forth being that Reiki doesn't belong to anyone so it can't be sold; generally these people haven't studied introductory economics and appreciated the opportunity cost of performing Reiki (i.e instead of performing Reiki, someone could be spending time with their family or earning a salary to feed them) or given thought to things such as the fixed costs of venue hire, public liability insurance, etc.

The worst thing about this attitude is that it devalues what is on offer - it's like saying "the two hours of my life that I spent working is much more valuable than the countless hours of your life you spent developing the ability to help me" which seems absurd, considering that magic as a profession doesn't seem as easy to get into as most, and would be pretty difficult to remain in if you did it for free.

I think that the misuse of magic arises more from a desire for personal freedom, and the failure to value it once it has been gained, than it does because of the *spooky voice* evil temptation of money. Individual Doctors don't abuse their powers solely because of money (though arguably national health systems and private hospitals do) so I don't see why this would be the case of Magicians; making a financially lucrative profession out of magic seems a pretty good way to avoid abusing it, as ones livelihood is dependant on avoiding this and a larger portion of time is spent practicing instead of not practicing.