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Waste management: from here to a 'cradle to cradle' standard

 
  

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gravitybitch
15:56 / 26.05.07
Hey - the dishwasher makes a lovely out-of-the-way drying rack...

We've got LED traffic lights in SF and I love them - very bright. And one of our local groceries is running a weekly raffle for gift certificates: you get a ticket each time you don't use any of their new paper bags when you take out your groceries.

I joined this conversation much too late to chime in on the dishwashing thing without repeating what everybody else said.
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:12 / 27.05.07
BihB: Yes, the Lush shampoo I have now is a solid round bar, zero packaging. They have stuff in bottles and tubs as well but I am not buying those until they are either biodegradable or built for eternity/refillable.

Lush solid shampoos here and here.


The wider thing about the plastic waste dump in the ocean the size of texas, though:

How did it get there?

I wonder if this is from landfill sites washed out by tsunami or other catastrophic flooding?

Or is it from deliberate dumping, in which case the people responsible need holding to account for all our sakes.

How do I find out who is most directly responsible?

What to do about it?

Are there any charities already involved in cleanup?

-From my limited studies of landfill and incineration in the past the current incinerator chimney standards in UK incineration make it the better option - certainly vs landfill which to me is unforgivable devastation of land which our descendants could otherwise use. In two cities I've lived in the heat from the incineration plant is used to generate electricity and heating for houses as well.

-I would suggest we want the floating mass of plastic to be collected by trawling (contracts for large fishing boats put out of business by catastrophic collapse of fish stocks? Include wild-life care & recovery crews & provision for funding animals to be kept in marine reserves?) followed by waste-to-energy incineration with magnetic recovery of ferrous metal.

-I would have thought a funding proposal could be built to stitch that lot together, including an international legal team to aim at recovering costs from any big money found to have a finger in the responsibility chain.
 
 
Ticker
11:53 / 27.05.07
That sounds very practical and great but most people have no idea it's even there!I've been forwarding the article like mad and so have other people but I think there needs to more public outrage.

I'm also thinking of a 'no to plastic'pledge where people network to find alternatives. For example my local bakery has started stocking drinking water in glass bottles in the cooler and my health food store has agreed to give me premeasured bulk dry goods in paper (I can bring the sacks back).

It's really quite difficult in some ways as I was handed a gelato treat last night in a plastic cup...groan... so I am saving the cup to use in art projects to help it become Eternal.

I'm right now thinking about organizing somesort of local anti plastic group and talking ot the local papers. I suspect I need to doa fair amount of research first though!
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:10 / 28.05.07
I agree, letting people know the state of things is important but I also want to make plans for finding out how it got like that, and clearing it up.

As I see it reducing consumer demand for plastic is really important but it's only one of the required actions to get towards a sane future.
 
 
Quantum
11:39 / 28.05.07
I haven't been reading this thread much (it depresses me) so apologies if I'm repeating someone else.

how it got like that

Most stuff ends up in the sea eventually. A lot of it is from shipping, because people just throw stuff overboard willy nilly and there's nobody out in the ocean to stop them.
I'm visiting my folks on the Isle of Wight at the moment, and the flotsam and jetsam that washes up on the beaches here is mostly plastic with large amounts of tar, empty plastic bottles and plastic ropes and nets, the beach after a storm looks like a landfill site. Don't forget the enormous amount of pollution from cleaning products and stuff that goes down the drain and into the sea (sometimes the surf has fairy-liquid bubbles in it due to the amount of detergent and stuff that's in it) the people who aren't using biodegradable washing up liquid, washing powder, toilet cleaner floor cleaner bath cleaner shampoo shower gel and soap are flushing all those toxic chemicals untreated into the sea.
The big problem with the plastic is not the big lumps you can trawl out but the tiny particles that look like plankton, the toxic dust that infuses the sea. Difficult to detect and remove, gets into the food chain, lasts forever... depressed now. Don't get me started on factory fishing and bycatch.
 
 
Quantum
11:46 / 28.05.07
Oh and on plastic packaging, the Body Shop used to refill bottles of shampoo etc. so you could bring them back when empty. They stopped after getting bought out by L'Oreal and now you get a fresh bottle that will never degrade with every purchase.
Our local supermarket is a Co-Op, and they have biodegradable bags which is great (although I take a string bag most times), in contrast to Sainsbury's whose bags proudly declare 'I'm made of 25% recycled plastic' big fucking whoop, that means 75% is not. And it won't biodegrade FFS, don't get me started on the bags for life nonsense.
 
 
Saturn's nod
12:12 / 28.05.07
The big problem with the plastic is not the big lumps you can trawl out but the tiny particles that look like plankton, the toxic dust that infuses the sea. Difficult to detect and remove, gets into the food chain, lasts forever... depressed now.

Yeah, but if I understand it correctly those tiny particles come from the breakdown of the larger stuff.

It's good to have some information from you about how that stuff gets there. I guess I'm not convinced that an area the size of texas could be filled with plastic waste by small scale acts of mindlessness alone, though maybe it's a scale problem in my head. I think there must be people accepting responsibility for plastic waste and deliberately dumping it at sea. I don't know what's in their minds - maybe just being able to eat a nice dinner with their beloved - but in my opinion they need liberating.

I agree with you about the tiny fragments, it's clear enough. But if we were to start serious remediation of the bigger stuff - which is coincidentally easier to handle e.g. with trawling - we'd be cutting down on the amount of micro-fragments around in our future as weathering continues.

I know this stuff is really painful to consider and I'm a big fan of allowing that pain to show us how much we care, how deeply we are connected to the rest of the planet. Those uncomfortable feelings are not dangerous, they are the wake-up call of the world crying out in us. Those feelings, if we are willing to tolerate them, can lead us to the different lives which are necessary if we as humans are going to make it through this time of planetary crisis.

I've probably linked to Joanna Macy's work that reconnects before, which is where I got the training in this kind of thinking, because I was blown away by the power and passion of the activists I met who were taking this approach. She teaches that our anger shows us the depth of our passion for justice. Our grief shows us how much we love. It's all about acknowledging what we feel and allowing those depths to show us our deep connection, and then allowing that deep connection to pull us forward, knowing that we are not alone but are merely part of life speaking up for itself.

This is where the deep ecology perspective (that jmw was ridiculing me for recently) comes in handy. A forest, a planet, is not just made of trees, of molecules. We are creatures, and our inhabitation is an important part of this planet. We are part of nature, not separate from it, however much our species tries to play that running away game. We can experience ourselves as part of the planet, the part that is typing, the part that has the heart and self-reflection and leisure to grieve over the images on tv and in magazine articles. The part with a compassion as huge as our denial can be at other times.

I believe when we give ourselves space and permission and encouragement to wake up we can have a huge effect, and that we are not alone in this grief and anger. We can allow ourselves to be moved and when we are moved in truth we can change the way things are done. Our willingness to allow ourselves to be changed by our sorrow, to be stigmatized by our unwillingness to continue in the old paths of destruction, can lead us to the adventure we're called to, the path that leads into sustainable inhabitation of this planet.
 
 
Red Concrete
11:49 / 29.05.07
Saturn's Nod - thanks. If I wasn't too shy, I'd crush you officially.

A link to photographer Chris Jordan's website, which I've seen doing the rounds. I just had a quick look at the Intolerable Beauty photos which are mixed shocking and pretty. In fact, I've always had mixed feelings about that scaffolding and rust type look that some artists seem to love, but I think this has tipped me into the 'Intolerable' camp.

Electric/onic gadgets are unfortunately very disposable. I remember our first VCR in the early 80s - when it broke we'd bring it down the road to get it fixed. Similarly hoovers, kettles, toasters. But when you can buy a toaster for a tenner, where's the incentive to do that...?

The photos of crushed cars followed by the new cars, I found quite sickening. All that energy and effort to pull metal out of the earth, mold and energize it, and a few years later crush it and let it oxidise. It's energy just spewed out into space... Of course it's possible that this lifestyle can theoretically be sustained with green energy sources and proper reuse and recycling of raw materials. But even then, is it sensible? I think it emphasises that if (when?) we solve current problems associated with global warming, we still need a change to our mindset on consuming.
 
 
Quantum
12:51 / 29.05.07
Yeah. I often find myself realising that the solution to whatever eco-problem I'm worrying about is to go back to what we were doing fifty years ago. Shopping bags, fixing things instead of buying new ones, greengrocers instead of supermarkets, local produce etc.
It's consumerism based on capitalism that is the underlying problem, we live in a world where designed obsolescence makes sense.

I guess I'm not convinced that an area the size of texas could be filled with plastic waste by small scale acts of mindlessness alone

I think it's twice the size of Texas... the thing is, it's those acts over a long period of time, because the stuff doesn't go away. The natural motion of the sea pushes it all into one place (love your use of the word 'gyre' btw!) so all those acts of thoughtlessness accrete into a plastic sargasso. There's a *lot* of shipping out there and they almost all use the sea as a bin, stuff gets dumped in rivers and ends up out there, a lot of countries have far laxer pollution laws than we do, and we all share the same oceans.
I agree that we should deal with the big chunks first as the easiest, but really the same effort might be better expended persuading people to stop dumping the stuff in the first place, which entails the sort of fundamental shift in attitudes and behaviour you're talking about. Saving the world is going to be a propaganda war fought in the hearts and minds of everyday people IMO, and technical solutions will be found by people motivated to do it.
 
 
Ticker
13:26 / 29.05.07
SN and Quants speak STRONG TRUTH.

I've been super aware of my plastic consumption over the last few days and trying not purchase any. It's ridiculously hard. Case in point I bought a vegan fudge mix in a paper sack only to discover later the mix was in a plastic sack inside of the paper one!

We can't go back we have to go forward and I think SN and Quants are dead right about where the battle is being fought.

I spent a chunk of time last night in the cemetery under the moonlight thinking. It was Memorial Day here in the States and I'd watched the parade of vets earlier in the sunshine and the tiny plastic flags fluttering over graves in the moonshine. I was thinking about this thread and another in the Temple and all the while I kept having Joseph Campbell's advice about illuminated people looping about.

Each one of us that decides to change our personal habits and lives does make a difference. That illumination cannot help but be noticed and impact others. My joy at discovering the local bakery has chosen to carry water in glass bottles motivated me to thank the bakery owner. We got in a discussion about plastic and the ocean and I affirmed I would be happy to pay more to buy glass over plastic. A group gathered and we discussed organizing to pick up trash and educate each other.

I hope I live long enough to see humanity put cleaning up the planet before any military agenda.
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:44 / 29.05.07
I hope I live long enough to see humanity put cleaning up the planet before any military agenda.

Compulsory military service is a recurring thought to me, perhaps because my uncles in my mother's family report as having benefited from being taught a trade during military service during the Second World War. I'm fascinated whenever I hear stories of military personnel doing constructive labour: I seem to hear about the British Army Engineering Corps building bridges from time to time.

How likely is it that young adult conscripts could be drafted to labour in the service of humanity's future? (How would one fund a draft or other large shift in the economy anyway?)
 
 
Lea-side
13:53 / 29.05.07
I live on a boat on a dock where what you put in the water hangs around for a bit, and as a consequence, everybody (nearly 100 boats of varying size) has to use biodegradable washing up liquid/cleaner and make absolutely sure that nothing nasty goes in the water. As a result we dont have disgusting smelly water all around us, and we have little baby ducks and swans and coots making squeeking noises outside in the morning! The thing is, its really not very hard at all, in fact you dont even really think about it after a while.
I mean, its just common sense not to shit on yr doorstep isnt it?
 
 
Saturn's nod
13:54 / 29.05.07
Human security is the driving force behind my permaculture leanings. Permaculture - collection and development of sustainable inhabitation techniques - is what a secure human future consists of, so it makes sense to have the armed forced working on them.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:58 / 29.05.07
Yikes - drafting young adults to save the planet but in the name of which immediate authority (i.e. the nation state is what we'd currently be looking at, right?), and enforced how?
 
 
Quantum
08:56 / 30.05.07
it makes sense to have the armed forces working on them.

Why not have a Peace Corps? Use the money we currently use to fund the military, but without the guns and killing folk? Imagine an army without Trident or stealth bombers (which are billions of pounds a pop) where the money was spent cleaning up and deveoping sustainable communities? Fuck, I'd join the army straight away, it's only the guns and killing I'm against.

Here's some figures to provide a sense of scale- a single B-2 Spirit stealth bomber, quoted by the Air Force as costing $1.157 billion in 1998, would provide funds for over 2,300 wind turbines, the big 700kw/h ones that cost half a million dollars (windy link).
Or alternatively the wages to pay $50,000 to twenty-three thousand people to work full time for a year. That's a fair amount of cleaning-up power to exchange for one (that's 1) bomber.
And in the UK, for the cost of Trident the government could put an extra £1000 into every classroom in Britain, every year for the next 26 years AND pay an extra £1000 to every nurse in Britain, every year for the next 26 years.

So my point is by making them the Unarmed Forces we'd save a shitload of cash, work toward disarmament, enlist loads of eco-pacifists, lead by example and have a dedicated army of people workingt o improve the world. We don't need the draft, for $50k p/a working for the Green Army you'd have plenty of applicants.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:24 / 30.05.07
Last Friday, I met up with a pal who knows someone who has been acting in a legal capacity for one of the major oil companies.

It was pub-talk, arguably, and I'm being circumspect, but this friend of mine, who was very much in favour of the invasion of Iraq - no hippy liberal, he, then - was still a bit worried by what this friend of his had to say.

Basically, this character's job is/was to research the latest developments in terms of energy efficiency, and then buy up the patents for US millions, and then put them to bed. Dreadfully, the petro-chemical industry seems to stalk the globe.

What's the point of worrying about the details (organic veg, recycling, etc) when the broader picture is so obviously a disaster?

(There is no point in talking about this - shouldn't we all get our kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames?)
 
 
whistler
11:03 / 30.05.07
(There is no point in talking about this - shouldn't we all get our kicks before the whole shithouse goes up in flames?)

...are you saying that fully engaging our intellects to collaboratively seek solutions to this puzzle shouldn't count as 'kicks'? I think that's fear talking; why would thinking towards saner responses to ecological probs be any less interesting and enjoyable than other problem-solving excercises that may or may not result in positive change? Hmn?
 
 
Quantum
12:29 / 30.05.07
Basically, this character's job is/was to research the latest developments in terms of energy efficiency, and then buy up the patents for US millions, and then put them to bed.

Dude, you say it like it's news. We know. I personally agree that it's the people with the money and power who need to sort it out, urgently, but who's going to make them? We are, that's who, whilst having loads of fun as well *without* burning down the boat we're in, which you must admit is something we're likely to regret. Why not arrange things so we can get our kicks forever and not die of poisoning? Jim Morrison is not a good example to follow when deciding global environmental management IMHO.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:58 / 30.05.07
Granny, stop using petrochemical companies as an excuse to live a consumptive life!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:15 / 30.05.07
...are you saying that fully engaging our intellects to collaboratively seek solutions to this puzzle shouldn't count as 'kicks'?

Basically, yeah.

But I'm no longer interested in that; what concerns me at the moment is the relationahip between the Moomins and hard right poltitical fringe groups - there's definitely a connection, but what is it all about? I feel like Hoskins in the sha'wer. They shouldn't have done that, the Moomins. I eat them, and then go to the bog with knives in my gut.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:18 / 30.05.07
Well, "it's all futile" is probably a slightly better excuse than "it's all Wednesday"...
 
 
Ticker
15:44 / 07.06.07
I have been trying to cut down and eliminate my plastic consumption ( I wanted to leave the typo of 'consumptions' because I suspect the disease overlap is funny/useful).

So anyone use Lush's deodorants and shampoo bars? The reviews seem mixed?
All the toothpaste and powders I can find are in plastic!
Toothbrushes are all plastic!


As for the whole 'it all futile' anyway thing I say a great planeterium movie in NYC this last weekend at the Natural History Museum. Moving little bit of Science as the Comforter with Robert Redford being the Voice of Science. Anyhow I was delighted to know Science has decided how the moon was formed, dinos killed off, and The Way It All Ends. Quite a soothing religious experience to have that put to bed for me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:49 / 07.06.07
I swear by Lush deodorant (Teo I think? - hard to remember, they last a while...) and shampoo bars (the anti-dandruff one).
 
 
Saturn's nod
16:19 / 07.06.07
Yeah toothcleaning's one I've not found a sustainable route yet. Cotton quilting thread with a beeswax lump to wax it, works as floss, without the nasty plastic boxes (anyone make a nice reusable floss box?)

I've experimented with toothpowders to clean with: mixes of bicarb, chalk, ground black pepper, ground cloves, mix into paste with water when used. There seem to be several kinds of toothpowder around like this one for example, though I haven't tried it and haven't checked what their packaging is. It looks like it's kaolin-based so perhaps I will try mixing a kaolin/black pepper/clove mixture next. Also I've seen recipes for making your own from ingredients, that's where I started with the toothpowder experiment.

Not found any kosher toothbrushes yet though, I want to know if anyone finds any.

I found compostable, non-petrochemical plastic boxes at the supermarket. Like the 'disposable' plastic boxes raspberries and blueberries and stuff are sold in at the supermarket, but biodegradable. I suspect the energetics involved (calories invested in intensive corn growing, sugar extraction & polymerization and so on) make them pretty high-end consumables in the long run but they are useful.

I'm finding A5-size brown sealable envelopes are good for use in the supermarket. They're good for stuff that needs containing - lentils, raisins, soft fruit - so I can leave the plastic at the customer service desk.
 
 
Saturn's nod
06:04 / 12.06.07
Not found any kosher toothbrushes yet though

To be clear, what I meant by this was kosher in the metaphorical rather than literal sense - 'biodegradable', rather than Jewish - apologies for any confusion or offence.
 
 
_pin
15:52 / 12.06.07
Some notes on this thread: Lush are charmingly ecovriendly, being untested, orangic, largely vegan (although I'm sure if, if we are going to keep farming aimals, whether it would not be better to use waste products from them), etc., and also offer a refill servic for their liquids (which I guess means the bottles themselves are super hard to recycle, being sturdy things).

So why do they sell so many things in those thin plastic bags? Why don't they go totally green grocer / sweet shop and have little paper bags for keeping your buys seperate and carrying around the shop, etc? Why??

Also, I can't rememberif I've seen several of those LED wind-and-solar slow down signs, or just one a fair bit (also on the way to my parents, and also on the Isle of Wight. conincidences.), but they're chalked up along side similarly powered bus timer read-outs as great.
 
 
_pin
15:53 / 12.06.07
Oh, and S's N, Lush sell toothpastes, too, and they're yummy, if you're curious.
 
 
Quantum
16:07 / 12.06.07
Hey I know that sign! On the military road? Like solar powered parking meters etc. it's such an obviously good idea it's embarassing it's not standard everywhere.

so I can leave the plastic at the customer service desk.

That's a fucking great practice I am going to pass on.
 
 
petunia
17:05 / 12.06.07
so I can leave the plastic at the customer service desk.

But won't the customer service people just put it in the bin anyway?
 
 
Ticker
17:33 / 12.06.07
ooh thanks for the deodorant/shampoo tip Flyboy!

toothpowders and perhaps tiny wooden bristle brushes? Maybe some sort of degradable eyebrow or moustache brush exists? I've been using a fairly large plastic headed new schmany toothbrush so I could deal if the head was a bit bigger than your average brush.

YEah the owner of the healthfood store and I got chatting about syran/cling wrap and the bidegradable ones have a huge carbon footprint. I do get 100% recycled tinfoil but sadly the tasties often are already in the wrap. I'm still not sure what to do about the berries int hose dumb ass clam shell plastic boxes besides ignore them.

Powdered laundry soap is a go but I'm not sure about dish soap ATM.

I'm also going through another bout of dietary contemplation and considering really stepping up to remove all animal meat I can't verify as humanely raised/slaughtered. I've been reading too many accounts of abuses, outright lying, and of course pollution by-products from even the supposedly better industries.

Needs me a non hippy city commune I suspect.
 
 
Ticker
17:39 / 12.06.07
sometimes I'm not very bright

though what are the natural bristles made out of?
 
 
*
17:45 / 12.06.07
Bet it's hog's bristles. NOT KOSHER.
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:03 / 12.06.07
But won't the customer service people just put it in the bin anyway?

I don't know. I think they do take notice: because I observed that six weeks after I had returned the casing from some organic purple sprouting to customer services at Tesco, the new batches of organic purple sprouting were presented unwrapped with elastic bands collecting the bunches together, small labels attached to the bands. A great improvement from the old plastic case wrapped in plastic.

When I return the packaging I say 'I'm giving you back this plastic packaging which I think is unnecessary' or something like it. I don't do this every time I go to the supermarket yet, but I have managed to do it on one shopping trip each month this year. At present I live in a district where plastic waste is incinerated at the council's waste to energy plant so although I am reducing as much as I can manage, I feel I can cope with throwing some during this transition to plastic-free living.
 
 
Saturn's nod
18:06 / 12.06.07
though what are the natural bristles made out of?

W00t, you found biodegradable toothbrosh! Truly, you are the witch of my dreams.
 
 
_pin
20:41 / 12.06.07
Actually, now that I think through what I'm talking about, the tubes for Lush's toothpastes are abombinable in many important regards.

And, uh... Fly? While you're hookng us up with knowledge (and I also vouch for the shampoo which, while smelling like hot tar and Frazzles actually is really good), how do you actually use that deodourant? I got some a year ago when I turned vegan, and it was really hard and annoying and just made me hurt. Smell bad and hurt. I'm using their aromacreme stuff, but it comes in a shit pot that I want to cut out of my life.

And Quants; I'm from Arreton, so apparently either that road goes by some strange and exciting slang, or there are many of these things (latter is better).
 
  

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