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Responding to hatred productively

 
  

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Ticker
15:12 / 21.05.07
Ugh....

My father keeps sending me heinous Republican emails that are straight up hate mongering from my POV.

He just sent me this article along with a one sentance introduction basically saying 'scary times ahead'.

I'm really really mad right now but I'd like to reply with something intelligent and useful rather than just the smackdown response I've started to form. There are about 20 people CC'd on the email he sent out and I know some of those folks share his views. If I can reply with something short (for limited attention spans) that explodes their fear I'd feel much better than yelling 'STUPID POOPY HATS!! KTHXBAI!'.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:14 / 21.05.07
Why the fuck is he bombarding you with propaganda? If he wants to talk politics he should ask to meet up over some kind of meal and actually open himself to criticism instead of hiding behind an email...
 
 
Ticker
15:23 / 21.05.07
Dude you have no idea...

He get's probably fifty of these nasty emails a day and forwards them out as informative. I just read one about how banning DDT has allowed malaria to kill children. It's like talking to a right wing republican, oh wait he is except for the Christian right part which he some how overlooks...

I often can send back simple emails that make fun of the hate mongering which seem to stem the flood for a while. I may resort to a Kitteh Filter...

In conversation he presents a way less militant stance on most things (well except the islamaphobia). It gets tiring to constantly have to respond to hatred with thoughtful replies which means he easily ignores the statements.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:26 / 21.05.07
I'd try the kittens...

I guess it's a tricky one, as it's your dad, and none of us really know what your relationship's like except you. It's always easier with strangers; but then, it's always less of a problem with strangers, because nobody wants their loved ones to hold hateful views.
 
 
Ticker
15:28 / 21.05.07
ok I'll see what I can whip up with the Kitteh Filter...


Anyone have any simple compassionate responses to hatred they find work?
 
 
Quantum
15:30 / 21.05.07
Perhaps you could respond "More Islamic Hispanics, So What?" The more you get him to unpack, the more likely he is to go "Well the brown skinned Muslims are a terrorist threat because...OH WAIT I AM BEING RACIST AND BIGOTED! Sorry my love, I didn't realise this sort of stuff was the thin end of the wedge, Americans are my countrymen irrespective of race or creed."

Also, talk to Evil Scientist and others who've had similar family hatemail problems.
 
 
Quantum
15:36 / 21.05.07
Anyone have any simple compassionate responses to hatred they find work?

I've found laughing works well, coupled with a gentle challenge and an IRON HARD ASSUMPTION that racism etc. is wrong, old fashioned and the mark of a lesser human being. Honestly, it's worked for me.

My Nan: Ooh, you're living in London? There's lots of coloured people there, are you sure it's safe?
Quantum: Hahaha... oh Nan, I love you but that's really racist, what does it matter what colour someone is? You are silly sometimes. BTW my girlfriend isn't white and she's lovely, what are you saying?

Although you might not get much of a debate, it leaves them with the impression that they are in a minority instead of assuming that everyone secretly agrees and is only PC when foreign people are watching. I like to frame it as though racism was disproved in the fifties and they just haven't heard the news, I often explain it in the same way as I do the Internet.
 
 
*
15:37 / 21.05.07
Where was it that I read the advice that if your relative is sending you tons of this crap, you should flatter their ego and tell them to get a blog and post it all there, along with their commentary, so that more people can read the insightful things they have to say about it. I think that's a great idea.

I guess in this case then you can also send a comment army. Maybe he'll learn something from the experience.
 
 
Ticker
15:41 / 21.05.07


He will keep sending the evil email even if he blogs...sigh...

thanks though!
 
 
Ticker
15:49 / 21.05.07
I sent the pic and this response:


So what you're saying here is brown Muslims are scarier than...? Oh wait maybe you meant 'oh no! Not only do they come in black, white and that desert color but now in brown!'

In case you don't understand what I'm saying I've attached it in lolcat.

Please don't send me your bigoted racist views I have to deal with enough hatred in my day as is.

Thanks.
 
 
This Sunday
16:03 / 21.05.07
I think that 'in black, white and that desert color but now in brown!' bit works particularly well. Especially the oddity of 'desert color'. Maybe it'll have an effect, but the tone of disapproval comes through clearly without being overly vicious.

Widening the perspective at any angle seems to be the best option.
 
 
jentacular dreams
16:34 / 21.05.07
An old study mentioned here says:

"...about 6 percent of American converts to Islam are Hispanic, said Ihsan Bagby, an author of the report and associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. About 27 percent of American converts are white, 64 percent are African-American and 3 percent are a mixture of other backgrounds, according to "The Mosque in America: A National Portrait."

Compare that with US demographics (14.5% of the US population identify as Hispanic) and you'll see that they make up less than 1% of the US population.

They are clearly taking over.
 
 
Proinsias
16:52 / 21.05.07
this thread started by alas last year might have some pointers as it sounds like a similar situation.
 
 
Ticker
17:18 / 21.05.07
cheers Proinsias.

Rereading it I realize my Dad's just ignoring my 'hippy' emails and keeps sending me his neocon ones. Le sigh.

I think there is some confusion when we (the fam) discuss specific world events I will condemn groups of people. You know the specific ones doing the specific heinous stuff, not people over there not doing the heinous stuff that just so happen to have the same religion in name.
 
 
Quantum
17:38 / 21.05.07
about 6 percent of American converts to Islam are Hispanic...14.5% of the US population identify as Hispanic

So in fact Hispanic peeps are less than *half* as likely to convert compared to %pop (0.41). 27% of converts are white, and 70% of US folk are white so to compare they're ever-so slightly less likely than Hispanic people to convert (0.39).

So it's obvious from the figures that you can tell your dad it's the African-American Muslims he should be afraid of.
 
 
Ticker
18:15 / 21.05.07
Er, that's not helpful Quants, he already is afraid of them.
 
 
grant
18:28 / 21.05.07
My first thought runs along the same lines as Quantum's, except distilled to two words:

Muhammad Ali.

Ask your dad if he's afraid of Muhammad Ali.

Or Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
 
 
grant
18:30 / 21.05.07


FEAR THE TORCH!
 
 
Ticker
18:39 / 21.05.07
See you guys are going in the wrong direction with this in terms of my dad. If I present him with any one person who happens to be a) Muslim and b) a person of color he'll be fine with that person. It's the group and he can't see why it's wrong to hate an entire group even when I bring up the Holocaust as what happens when you hate an entire group.

Somehow Antisemitism is evil to him (thankfully!) but Islamaphobia is somehow justified because of a small percentage of Islamic terrorists and Fundie Muslims. I despair of ever explaining half dozen of one six of the other.
 
 
grant
18:48 / 21.05.07
If I present him with any one person who happens to be a) Muslim and b) a person of color he'll be fine with that person. It's the group and he can't see why it's wrong to hate an entire group

Well, just keep putting good person in bad group.

We'll put Ali in the internment camps.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:57 / 21.05.07
Well, then, how about asking him what exactly any Hispanic Muslim has ever done which is making him so scared of the times ahead? The only terror attack on US soil involving Muslims, which was certainly a terrible thing, took place without the involvement of a single Hispanic person. From there you're down to the Beltway Sniper, I think - also not Hispanic.

Not, as you say, that there is probably a lot of point. People who really want to hate on other races will work quite hard to find reasons why it is OK for them to hate on other races. One has to work out what one will do from there.
 
 
This Sunday
19:11 / 21.05.07
Sounds like something not worth fighting at, unfortunately. He may well develop the notion they're all like Muhammad Ali, y'know, politically interested and capable punching with great force. Except they don't promote good dental care, and they're all terrorists. I'm drawing on my own bigoted relations to complete the picture, so your dad may not be that bad off, but I'd suggest only punctuating the conversation with a perspective-broadening comment or lolcat or whatever occasionally, rather than trying to hit every one out of the park.

The in-person comments, those you would probably have more impact addressing.
 
 
Ticker
19:33 / 21.05.07
I've decided just to use the Kitteh Filter everytime he does this and to CC it to everyone receiving the email.

I appreciate everyone's thoughtful suggestions but I'm currently just feeling overwhelmed by his stubborn perceptions. It makes one shouty, it does.
 
 
Quantum
17:00 / 22.05.07
he already is afraid of them

Shit it. I was hoping that would snap him out of it.

Have you tried converting to Islam?
 
 
Ticker
17:19 / 22.05.07
Nah my Gods are not big on monotheisim especially the only male Deity kind.

The Kitteh Filter was effective in a lighthearted newspaper to the nose sort of way. The rest of my family seemed to be happy to have him called to task for it via lolcat.
 
 
Ticker
18:07 / 22.05.07
Now my Dad's pissed (angry not drunk).

So I wrote:

The article stated there are more Hispanics converting to Islam but
you sent it with the header that it would mean something negative in
the future.

You framed the article to represent that more Muslims and specifically
Hispanic Muslims would cause trouble in the future. This is a
statement generated from fear of Islam and Minorities, specifically
Muslim Hispanics.

Muslims are not the problem. Fundamental terrorists of various
religions and non religions are. Minorities are not the problem,
Muslims are not the problem, people who commit acts of violence and
hatred are.


He's not seeing what views of his are bigoted and disagreeing that he has any.

*headdesk*
 
 
grant
18:34 / 22.05.07
It's the Italian anarchists who're behind it all, you mark my words.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
14:08 / 23.05.07
Passing thought, XK: have you considered subterfuge?

Take some articles on how Islam isn't a threat, the manufacture of the War on Terror, etc. and have yourself or your partner (I know he does graphic-designy things, no?) retitle them with titles like "THE LOOMING THREAT OF ISLAM" and "A JUST WAR FOR JUSTICE" and rewrite the lede so it looks like it's going to be an article that confirms your dad's biases.

At the very least, cognitive dissonance might make a hole you can get some ideas through; at best, he'll read the whole article thinking it's about the Hispanic Islamic Doom That Came To Innsmouth and finish the article thinking "well that's not such a bad thing really."

"You're wrong here's why!" is less attractive than the ol' bait-and-switch.
 
 
alas
00:48 / 25.05.07
help. This is more like just good old fashion xenophobia mixed with racial prejudice....just received from my cousin, republican christian conservative, from some site called con ser vative pet it ions dot com

from the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps:

Senate Sell Out Kennedy-Kyl Plotting to Protect Amnesty Bill From
"Deal-Breaker" Changes
6501 Greenway Parkway Suite 103-640 Scottsdale, AZ 85254 :: Phone (520)
829-3112

Kennedy-McCain joins the Jon Kyl coalition plotting to STOP any
amendments
from "deal-breaker" changes that would sap its support

The Senate Continues to Bypass We-The-People

.On Monday the Senate bypassed the people and forced an Amnesty First
bill
to the floor. A select group of Senators will hold daily meetings
starting
Tuesday to determine whether proposed revisions would sink what they
are
calling their "grand bargain."

.Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC) Vice President, Carmen Mercer,
and
Tony Dolz from CA are being joined by MCDC volunteers on Capitol Hill
all
week during this CRITICAL TIME of DEBATE telling Senators to Secure the
Border First say NO to AMNESTY and NEVER to SPP.

The bill is being criticized from every direction including the
Minutemen,
U.S. Border Patrol, Labor Unions, Hispanic Groups, Presidential
Candidates
and even many politicians.

Heritage Foundation scholar Robert Rector estimates the bill's price
tag at
a potential $2.5 Trillion with a Capitol Hill "T"

Rector states that “Granting amnesty or conditional amnesty to
illegal
immigrants would increase their use of welfare, Social Security and
Medicare. Fiscal costs would go up significantly in the short term but
would
go up dramatically after the amnesty recipient reached retirement. If
all
the current adult illegal aliens in the U.S. were granted amnesty the
net
retirement costs to government could be over $2.5 trillion.”

The bill is not even completely written and now the Senate feeling the
heat
puts off final action on the deal until June trying to stop any
opposition
from making changes to the incomplete legislation.

Millions of Americans are demanding real border security, while our
President, Chertoff and the U.S. Commerce Secretary join with open
border
lobbyists and liberal Senators to cut deals in a smoke-filled back room
and
give BLANKET AMNESTY to 12 million illegal alien intruders!

.Kennedy says President Bush will sign the bill. While McCain keeps
hiding
his open borders mania from the GOP rank-and-file on the White House
campaign trail, he’s behind Ted Kennedy all the way on the illegal
alien
AMNESTY SELL-OUT. Add Arlen Specter as a RINO leader helping Dems and
President Bush push forward an “immigration overhaul” that would
grant
IMMEDIATE legal status or AMNESTY to virtually all 12 million illegal
aliens
confirmed to be already in the U.S.—plus countless more to come
through on
this new welcome mat—and border security is an empty promise!

The battle is on in the Senate!

“Secure the Border First” is the issue. Do not let this important
national
security debate in Washington become instead an “AMNESTY-FEST” with
the
security of our nation hi-jacked by alien gangs and derailed with
Z-cards.
The Amnesty-Bill reportedly calls for security measures to be promised,
enacted and evaluated over the next 18 months, and 350 miles of border
fence
and cameras to be authorized. Similar promises have been made before,
but
never followed through on with real enactment. ENFORCEMENT FIRST! NO
AMNESTY FOR LAWBREAKERS! DO NOT HAND OUT ID CARDS to illegals until
the
border is secured!

SAY NO to ILLEGAL ALIEN AMNESTY
and YES to BORDER SECURITY FIRST

Senators Cornyn and De Mint walk away from the sell-out!

Well, at least SOME folks have a good head on their shoulders! It
looks
like Sen. John Cornyn doesn’t want anything to do with the
President’s deal
to grant amnesty to millions of illegal aliens, and neither does Sen.
Jim
DeMint.

* Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC): "This rewards people who broke the law
with
permanent legal status, and puts them ahead of millions of law-abiding
immigrants waiting to come to America" (mult., 5/17).

And on the U.S. House side:

* Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-WI): "I think the bill stinks"
("Evening
News," CBS, 5/17).
* Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO): "Here's the bottom line ... that, if
you are
in this country illegally today, this moment, you will be able to stay
under
this bill" ("PZN," CNN, 5/17).
* Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA), asked if the new immigration bill will
stop
illegal immigration: "I don't think it will, because the bill cuts my
fence
in half. ... You have to put that fence in place." ("Hardball," MSNBC,
5/17).

Take action NOW and keep the pressure on!

Senator Lindsay Graham of South Carolina has said it most bluntly,
“We’re
gonna tell the BIGOTS to SHUT UP”! If you believe in border security
first,
HE MEANS YOU!

DO NOT BE SILENCED BY ANYONE –
STAND UP! MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD!

Take Action NOW and do ALL of the following:

* Send YOUR blast faxes to ALL 535 of these Congressman NOW,
demanding
that they secure our borders and say NO to amnesty:
 
 
This Sunday
01:06 / 25.05.07
Damn. I have little to offer except complete sympathy. The last time a cousin (similarly, a Republican Fundamentalist Conservative, also an ex-Marine) e-mailed me something like the above message, I not only couldn't respond, I haven't been able or willing to respond to anything from him since.

Might I suggest using the letter's suggestion in part, and rather than responding to the relative, writing a note to the gov types of your area letting them know your opinion on the matter?
 
 
Tsuga
01:17 / 25.05.07
omigodomigodomigod
12 million illegal alien intruders!
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
This was interesting. Lindsey Graham is an odd one, he's so freaking ultra-conservative in some ways, but it was odd, the (out of context)
Senator Lindsay Graham of South Carolina has said it most bluntly,
“We’re
gonna tell the BIGOTS to SHUT UP”! If you believe in border security
first,
HE MEANS YOU!

No. There's no bigotry at play here. I loved this gem by Newt Gingrich on "The O'Reilly Factor"

Tax-paying Americans do not want to be told that international gang members are going to be amnestied. They don't want to be told that, as long as you are illegal you don't have to pay your back taxes. And they don't want to be told that their desire to enforce the law means that they're bigots.

No. No bigotry at all. Just trying to keep all of those tax-dodging gangstas out of our nice shiny springtime fresh country.

People can have all kinds of debates about the potential impacts of large numbers of immigrants, because there will be real impacts, and not all of them are easy. Just as there are impacts in denying immigration or legalization. But FOR CHRISTS SAKE why do people always dehumanize other people? I just fail to see how people fail to see that other people are just like them, just without the delusion of deserved privilege. They could at least be blunt and say, "fuck those people. I want my shit, I don't want to share it, and they're just going to take from me", the mindset of so many people (but especially republicans), that manifest destiny of the soul.
 
 
Tsuga
01:47 / 25.05.07
By the way, XK, I can totally sympathize with you, I believe I've probably got the same thing many times worse from my father, a homophobic xenophobic ultra-ultra (I think...yes, one more)-ultra conservative crackpot, enraging type-a, convinced he's utterly. totally. right. when he says things like "a majority of homosexuals are pedophiles" or "gays can become straight" or "Islam is a shallow religion" or "we should nuke Iran".
I mean, he actually says and believes these things. No matter how often you take the time and energy to prove him wrong, he'll pull some half-assed crap off of the internet to show that he's right. As though, because...well...it's written down. It must be true, a-aand it's got references. I mean, I love the guy, I really do. I'm not sure why. He can be very sweet and loving, but he's probably the most self-centered oblivious and utterly rude person I've ever met. Every time we hang out, I end up at some point telling him very directly "just shut the fuck up". I mean, how productive is that? Only that it works for a while. I think arguing with him is Operation Lost Cause. He wants to do it, anyway, and it's only indulging him.

God, sorry. I'm just dumping this pile out here. How about, good luck, XK, it's great that you are trying, and maybe you can make some headway.
 
 
Ticker
02:19 / 25.05.07
My Dad's a Fortean pro choice neocon pagan. (lesbians = ok if femme, gay men = bad unless in a sanctioned gay man social function)

The mind, it boggles.

However there is good news! Due to the estimated number of Republicans which believe Creationism should be taught in schools as a valid theory my father *may* vote differently, maybe Liberatarian! You know, not because of the whole right wing republican anti choice thing or anything like that.

As far as I can tell it comes down to a fear based belief that people will kill, rape, and rob you and your loved ones if their religion and racial/economic status differs from yours. Where as I tend to think the people likely to do these atrocities may also share your religion and race/economic status. Generalizations as to enemies and allies sort of crumble at the scale of population we're at.

A gay swinger hispanic Santeria practitioner may someday save my father's life by stopping a married white woman from trying to throttle him. ( My temper, it is often nasty.)
 
 
Ticker
02:36 / 25.05.07
alas, the things I find working with my dad are examples of who else holds the same ugly view points. I believe for example a certain white asshat super storm poopy pants site is running the same petition thingy.

So for example if my dad says 'you know the illegals are ruining this country' I can say 'gosh Dad you sound just like the neonazi trash over here, look, see, you do. I wonder why that is? Perhaps you are both holding onto outdated bigoted views rather than keeping an open mind about people you don't really know anything about. Huh, remember the horrors of WWII, right? Wasn't that about...oh yes, genocide, because some people could lump other people together based race and religion. Right. That was horrible and sucked and lots and lots of people participated because they were afraid.Say, when was the last time an illegal immigrant actually did anything to you or anyone you know? Never? Interesting.'

Then apply lolcat/lolrus.
 
 
Kiltartan Cross
06:39 / 25.05.07
If you want to break the "monolithic Islamic juggernaut coming to roll over us all" vibe, you could maybe try going over the Sunni / Shi'a divide, or the differences in Islam as it is practised between, say, North Africa and Australasia, something along those lines, and ask him if he thinks an all-conquering global ummah is really likely...
 
  

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