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Greatest living female novelist?

 
 
Dusto
13:05 / 21.05.07
I'm not sure that I have the answer to this, but I think it's an interesting issue. Why do women come up so rarely when discussing "the greatest novelist"? Is it that feminine subject matter is not considered the stuff of great novels? Consider that some of the most lauded female novelists of our day (Zadie Smith, for instance) tend to be the ones who write about male leads. Or conversely consider Benjamin Kunkel's "Indecision," which gets treated as literary but which would probably be written off as "chick-lit" if written by a woman and featuring a female lead. And why is it "natural" for women to write genre fiction (particularly mysteries), poetry, or short stories, but for the most part not "literary" novels?

Sure, Toni Morrison's "Beloved" came out on top of that N.Y. Times poll a year or two ago, but you seldom hear her name tossed around with the Thomas Pynchons, John Updikes, Cormac McCarthys and Philip Roths of this world. So who should we be considering, here? Ann Patchett, Barbarar Kingsolver, Jennifer Egan? I think my vote might go for Aimee Bender, but she seems primarily a short story writer (only one novel). Others?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:09 / 21.05.07
And why is it "natural" for women to write genre fiction (particularly mysteries), poetry, or short stories, but for the most part not "literary" novels?

Who says this? I don't say it, and I hope people here aren't saying it?

Um, as a basic answer - sexist bias in sciety encourages women to read soft books by women (such as mills and boon novels) - creates a market for women writing soft books - hence more women write soft books than "hard" "literary" books. Except this isn't any more "naturally" feminine than men writing Tom Clancy novels.

All good novels combine "male" and "female" traits? Henry James, Woolf? Perhaps.

I may be utterly wrong.
 
 
This Sunday
14:48 / 21.05.07
I steer clear of 'greatest living' as much as I can, or even 'greatest', unless I'm being facetious, but that's because I don't buy the supremacy of literariness, or even the measures and scales of such things. It's silly. Do we value novelty over re-readability, characterisation of the silver-fork/comedy-of-manners style over plot machinations? Some us will take Edith Pargeter over Virginia Woolf in a flash.

And whether women are inherently better at one type or another is a little too rocky without having any good outcome I can see. First person to write a longform narrative for sale was a woman, after all. Murasaki Shikibu's Tales of Genji, has been challenged for that first-novel-ever spot, but I've never seen it challenged very effectively, so there it is. First.

Which would imply other women could do it, and do it well. The fact I keep paying for novels written by women should go a ways to that. Or that we keep finding situations where male authors later credit their wives/girlfriends/sisters as co-authors, or admit openly they participate in the work immensely but then refuse to give them real credit. It's annoying enough hearing/reading about that sort of thing, but it honestly just about breaks my heart to think I know people who write their SOs fiction.

Anyway, Margaret Atwood should be on the list of options, if there's to be one, and possibly Michelle Huneven's getting there.

Suffering through Adriane on the Edge by Paul Mandelbaum, I now have a renewed appreciation of many things labeled 'chick lit', simply because his parody/satire of the non-genre/marketing-tag was so safe and lifeless. Even if we allow that there is a 'chick lit' and it's full of frivolity and fit-throwing... I like my fivolous fit-throwing, it's what makes Shakespeare watchable.

I can state without worry I'm looking-to-hard, that, in the States and for American presses, female authors have a harder time of getting the book out intact and in a timely fashion. Primarily with small presses, but from firsthand reports, even some of the big guns as well. The phrasing or structure will be questioned more than a male author's, the back-and-forthing between changes and STET is increased, and the book may be accepted and then sit for quite some time. Kate Gale at Red Hen, and a few other sensible, perhaps brilliant people might instrumental in getting past all that, but overall?

Quality's always hard to judge (or, suspiciously so), but I know some absolutely killing books that sat and sat while male authors at the same press with less sales or awards for past works, continued to have their new material released in a timely fashion, in more or less its original intended form. I'd say that has to effect the way the bookshelves looks at the end of the day.

Did a woman win last year's cell-phone-novel award in Japan? I can't quite wrap my head around novels on cell phones, but really, if it's good enough to read on a cell paying bit by bit, it would have to have something going for it beyond the typical two-hour read, yes/no?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:10 / 21.05.07
Is it that feminine subject matter is not considered the stuff of great novels? Consider that some of the most lauded female novelists of our day (Zadie Smith, for instance) tend to be the ones who write about male leads.

Margaret Atwood (namechecked above by Decadent) writes primarily female leads to the point where her male ones stand out as being unusual - and Atwood is nothing if not highly lauded. Up here in Canada they've run out of awards they feel comfortable giving her. Actually, there are quite a number of highly respected, lauded female writers (writers who happen to be female) in Canada, many of whom right female leads (or male leads, or what-have-you). Also: "feminine subject matter?" Unpack that right hence, thank you.

And why is it "natural" for women to write genre fiction (particularly mysteries), poetry, or short stories, but for the most part not "literary" novels?

...

Okay, I can't even begin to deal with this one, but again, Margaret Atwood's primarily known as a "literary genre" writer who forays into other genres but always in the context of (ugh) literary fiction? Plenty of men write genre fiction as well, and poetry, and short stories, and plenty of women write “literary novels.” Are short stories suddenly not considered literary? Did I miss a memo?

Sure, Toni Morrison's "Beloved" came out on top of that N.Y. Times poll a year or two ago, but you seldom hear her name tossed around with the Thomas Pynchons, John Updikes, Cormac McCarthys and Philip Roths of this world.

Possibly because she doesn't write the same sort of thing? Or simply because as a woman, particularly as a black woman, Morrison tends to be put in a ghetto all her own rather than being put in with those male writers -- all of whom, I'd wager, are roughly the same literary generation. Finding some way of unlocking the "ghetto mindset" would increase recognition of writers like Morrison.
 
 
Dusto
18:06 / 21.05.07
Who says this? I don't say it, and I hope people here aren't saying it?

Sorry, poorly worded. I meant it as something I see in marketing and critical reception of books. Basically the reverse of the Benjamin Kunkel thing. Perfectly "literary" books by women that get labeled as chick-lit or fantasy when equally romantic or "fantastic" books by male counterparts get marketed as "literary." I certainly don't think there are fundamental differences, or even that the majority of readers feel there are, but it is a mindset that I see in the book industry. I can see the source of the confusion, though, since the impetus behind this thread was from a discussion on the board, but I guess I'm thinking more of the world of criticism. Milan Kundera, for instance, in his latest book of essays on the history of the novel doesn't mention a single woman in the course of the entire book. Which is absurd. You would think Murasaki would be addressed, or at least Aphra Behn (some might say she was the first English novelist) or at least Jane Austen.

feminine subject matter

I'm not saying anything like "writing meant for female sensibilities" if that's what you're worried about, but rather I'm saying that writing ABOUT women doesn't seem to be taken as seriously as writing about men. There are exceptions, of course; Margaret Atwood is a good example. But often it seems that writing about women (or writing about non-caucasians, for that matter) is treated like something tangential to "mainstream literature." There seems to be an idea that if you're not writing about a white male, then it's somehow not universal enough.

I don't know, maybe I'm exaggerating the problem, but it seems a bit out of hand to me when even female novelists who are touted as "literary," such as Marisha Pessl, get dismissed as only getting book deals based on their looks.
 
 
iconoplast
18:26 / 21.05.07




My friend and I used to wonder why we didn't like any female authors. Then we read Billy Dead.

It has a female protagonist, it's written by a woman, and it's just a harrowing, badass story of poverty and violence and childhood horror.

Seriously. This book. Amazing.
 
 
johnny enigma
11:31 / 25.05.07
Two of the greatest novels I have ever read are by female novelists and have extremely strong female protagonists - "Brass" by Helen Walsh and "Billie Morgan" by Jools Denby.

I tend to like books that are considered to be quite dark. I don't mean dark in the Frankenstein/Dracula kind of way, I mean dark in a Trainspotting/Sheepshaggers kind of way. If you are into this sort of stuff, then both of these books will quite literally blow your mind. "Billie Morgan" made weep towards the end of the book, and I can count the number of times I've cried in the last five years on one hand.

Please people - go out and buy these books and then read them!
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
11:44 / 25.05.07
According to Muriel Gray, it's called rural schoolteacher syndrome.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:28 / 25.05.07
poverty and violence and childhood horror

These are a few of your favourite things?
 
 
iconoplast
14:33 / 29.05.07
In terms of material for a novel, they beat the snot out of bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens and steal their milk money.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:44 / 29.05.07
At the risk of sounding like an absolute muffin:

Jools Denby? Like, srsly? I have to say my impression was not that positive. Didn't you find it - I mean, strong female characters and all that aside - really, really badly written?

This thread for me is raising a thorny question about whether we can say a novel is "good" just because it has a strong female character or because it "challenges stereotypes" - don't things like the quality of the writing itself matter? To argue that a novel deserves respect just because we like its politics is all kinds of wrong whoever "we" happen to be.

I don't want to sound like a dick. I just say this because there's a raft of poets and novellists around at the moment (Marina Lewycka etc) of whose sentiments people seem to approve without thinking about, you know, I mean - it's Not Henry James, is it? I mean so much stuff is full of ugly sentences, purple prose...one dimensional characters...banal, sub-soap-opera stories...I don't know.

Someone tried to tell me that some fantasy novel was better than Joseph Conrad because it had a princess in it who knew what she wanted. Yeah?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:38 / 01.06.07
Marina Lewycka is Tractors in Ukrainian, right? I was under the impression that people liked her because she's funny and readable. It ain't high art and I don't think anyone's claiming it is, but I didn't find the prose outstandingly bad at all - it was a lot better than that of most of the books which fly up the bestseller charts.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
15:55 / 01.06.07
This thread for me is raising a thorny question about whether we can say a novel is "good" just because it has a strong female character or because it "challenges stereotypes" - don't things like the quality of the writing itself matter? To argue that a novel deserves respect just because we like its politics is all kinds of wrong whoever "we" happen to be.

Good point, although I would tend to define "strong female character" as more like "fully fleshed out female character," rather than leaving her relatively one-dimensional ... which I do think would contribute to good writing. Traditionally, female characters have often been left as ciphers in the Western canon (generalization, I know), so giving female characters meaningful development is a meaningful variable to look at.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
16:04 / 01.06.07
Yes, that's right, and might I apologise for my tone up above.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
16:12 / 01.06.07
And I apologize for using "meaningful" twice in the same sentence. I can totally appreciate and agree with the idea that shared politics should not automatically equal a label of "good" on any art (in this case writing), but occasionally biases in one's thinking can lead to sizeable holes in one's art -- holes which aren't intentional but will tend to lessen the effect.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:37 / 02.06.07
Aye. Something I'm seeing around the world of English literature today is a tendency to write off certain authors as "dead white men", or, if talking about novels, "classic realism", the former being something feminism might disaparage and the latter being both a bugbear for Lit Theory types (because classic realism is the easiest vector for ideology to work through) and Postcolonial Lit - there's a big emphasis on how classic realism is a western construct, how there are other ways of creating literature.

All of which is fine and true, and it's understandable why someone who was fed up of living in a WASP patriarchy might get frustrated and over-eager to write a classic author off, BUT if people don't continue to read the great novellists (Henry James, Joseph Conrad, E.M. Forster etc) there are levels of pure technical skill, pacing, expression, musicality, that risk getting lost or obscured. These things stand apart from whatever -isms and phobias our authors undoubtedly had. Modernism, in some ways a counter-school to classic realism, is my major but no ammount of Virginia Woolf would make up for a lack of Henry James.

On top of that, it seems to be forgotten quite easily that novels like Heart of Darkness or Portrait of a Lady, while not up to the radical standards of Said or De Beauvoir, were actually absolute bombshells in their day - HoD for suggesting that Empire might be bad, and PoaL for showing this female character striking out against the odds.

I'm not entirely sure how relevant any of this is, and I'm also not sure how I can get away with claiming that this is a sizeable trend as I'm sure there's plenty of evidence for white men being over-represented (although I'm not sure it's anyone's fault that most people writing in English through history tend to have been white, or if it is it's more complicated). It's just that I've seen very good literature essentially glossed over or slagged off, in front of a classful of kids who've less reading experience than me, and who might now never read said literature. That it was being glossed over in favour of people like Jhumpa Lahiri might be part of my ire.

There's also the fact that a lot of suspiciously sentimental novels with pastel-coloured covers about women and the third world are mass-marketed in places like Tesco and Asda, and that certain people I've met (not on here) seem to think that these constitute "women's writing" when actually they're pure filler and often come with a distinct but hard-to-spot set of conservative bias all their own...
 
 
Whisky Priestess
07:58 / 05.06.07
a lot of suspiciously sentimental novels with pastel-coloured covers about women and the third world

Afric-chick-lit?!

You ARE kidding me, aren't you? Please, please name one! (Or better - a cover image ...) I have never seen a chick-lit book involving the third world, and now I LONG to. Surely it would be all sorts of publishing wrong though, like setting a Mills & Boon novel on a council estate?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:00 / 05.06.07
Oh, Jumpa Lahiri, Interpreter of Maladies. And so on. I realise I'm treading a tightrope on either side of which lies prejudice. I'm not saying books shouldn't be about women or the third world.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
08:08 / 05.06.07


My friend was rather vicious about this on their blog, in an article about "Issues-based Fiction", but I'll post it here anyway as it seems as good an analysis as any, and maybe backs up what I was saying above. I don't think this is un-Lithable. After this I'll stop hijacking the thread.

Now I would like to present and discuss an example of Issue Based Fiction, that in fact won the Pulitzer Prize in 2000: Jhumpa Lahiri's Interpreter of Maladies. Now, obviously, no piece is ever as uncomplicatedly bad as that which I present in my invectives, but, just consider the way the book is presented. Brown, crimson, and gold washey colours merge into one another. There is no capitalization. We see an image of An Oriental Woman, blurred, with definite dark hair and bare shoulders, perhaps naked. Below this, a tagline declaring it the winner of the Pulitzer, a positive quote from Amy Tan, and then an image of some jungle flower or other.

All this natural, exotic/mystical, but casual (uncapitalized) matter is concocted to sell to the female/'intellectual'/semi-intellectual/self-identifying 'liberal' market in any given Liberal Capitalist locale. Woman, you see, especially Oriental Woman, is a fountain of mystical knowledge and wise words, all of it cosily uncapitalized. “She was more heart than smart.” Of course, there is intelligence there as well as emotion – emotional intelligence, probably, not about any old books, you know, but nice little chats in big warm kitchens etcetera. It has all the potential to be a best-seller.

And no, you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. The author probably had no chance to affect its design. I merely want to use the above to point out that trying to write a book of fiction which is intended as some sort of weapon in the ideological war is an inherently flawed idea from the get go – not only for the reasons I gave in the first section, but because you see it can be made to fit straight into the little box the dominant ideology (Capital, Empire) gives it. It will be sold to the sort of people who might be concerned about this sort of thing to placate them and stop them from changing anything. Better to write a collection of serious essays or join a campaigning group, wearing the argument on your sleeve.

On to the book itself.

Thematically, it is a set of short stories about women who have some traumatic connection to India. Now that sounds like an interesting book, doesn't it? Particuarly as the Indian woman is a class of person whose voice is marginalised by several systems – class, race, ethnicity, gender.

Except the author is so entwined with the Issues, so little separate from the characters, that they cease to be characters and become simply interchangeable Top Trumps cards (Academic! Mother! Daughter!) around which are thrown stories designed to propel the reader, in a manner of extreme sincerity, from Issue to Issue – the description and dialogue, while adequate at what they do, are simply padding. The characters are not three-dimensional.

Now you could claim that this was an intentional effect: the author has created characters who are nothing but issues in order to show how real human beings become swallowed up, reified, by what they represent – how, for a British example, white people will either be directly racist towards an Indian (e.g. calling them 'a paki'), or alternatively expect an Indian to give them a talk on Hinduism, or to teach them how to make a curry, or to be somehow sexy and exotic. Perhaps this was the author's intention: to mimic with one-dimensional characters the one-dimensional stereotypes alloted by the dominant ideology to those who do not fit in.

Supposing this is true, the problem is, as with many literay ideas, that this one does not create a good piece of literature, however good it may sound in theory – rather like the idea of deciding to write poetry 'in the voice of a peasant', or all that bullshit about getting really stoned and writing a great novel that speaks for troubled youth everywhere. The book is simply not very good, for the reasons given above: one gets the feeling that those reviewers quoted in the frontpapers as saying wonderful things about “the simplicity of language and narrative”, or saying things like “Storytelling of surpassing kindness”, or that “Everything you wanted to know about the immigrant experience can be found in these pages” are trying rather hard to prove something: that they are good liberals, that they care, and so-on – and so the book is measured not in terms of its quality, but in terms of its niceness, in terms of, if it were a person, how much you would want to vote it in as president.

For the difference between 'quality' and 'niceness', and why it is incredibly important to distinguish between the two, consider, on the one hand, To the Lighthouse, A Clockwork Orange, The Fall, and Lolita. Then on the other consider a book of children's hymns, and a calendar of cute kittens produced by the RSPCA. Or indeed consider Prufrock and other observations against Big Words: An Anthology of Pro-curves poetry for women.
Now go and have a think.
 
 
This Sunday
08:16 / 05.06.07
no ammount of Virginia Woolf would make up for a lack of Henry James.

I'd take Virginia Woolf, Susan Straight, Alice Walker, and even almost the thickest ponies-for-dragons Ann Mccaffrey novel out there over referring to Henry James as the height of literariness and quality.

And I'd wager Woolf or Stein do as well in the current market, if not better, than E.M Forster, Graham Greene or either of the James, William or Henry. Part of that's The Hours giving Woolf a bit of a push, but part of it is also simply quality or entertainment value. Entertainment value's my new measure against 'literariness' which has always seemed to be entirely too specious a beast.

Any one of the Bronte's deserves more weight in both literariness and entertainment, than anybody else above, but they're all dead and that's just opinion, anyhow.

Actually, I'm glad I put Susan Straight up there, since Straight's new novel, A Million Nightingales, despite a tendency to ethnographic tour-guiding and some atrociously pretentious blurbs decorating its outsides, is shaping up to be a really good read. It's not the greatest of all, no, but it passes the test where you pull random lines out and see if they sound good on their own, and the other lit test where you look for all the parallels, contrasts, nuances, and gaming with the reader.

And in closing, I can't help point out a fair number of dead white fellows wrote "suspiciously sentimental novels with pastel-coloured covers about women and the third world" including E.M. Forster, or else we wouldn't have had A Passage to India and striking the third-world fiat, Howards End. I actually like the latter, but Passage I suspect will read worse and worse as we evolve socially and ought to've been insulting to a good many people when initially published.
 
 
This Sunday
08:43 / 05.06.07
Allecto, a few Amiri Baraka things may interest you: his essay The Myth of Negro Literature and any of his lectures from Naropa's summer session, a couple of which are floating around the interweb. He addresses head on the notion that weak works are typically presented as representative of certain races, cultures, genders, et cet. in order to pump up the legitimacy or supremacy of the classic model, which at least here in the states is a straight white Christian/Atheist man. The other side of the coin is that this is, even when done unknowingly, a detrimental use of representation, as there are quality works demonstratably being published/written at the same times as these lesser examples.

For that matter, Amina Baraka, wife of the above, has a good deal of essays on the subject as well.

And, while I'm on a roll, I'd like to suggest memoirs count as novels, and so, as one of the best living memoirists, Maya Angelou should get on the shortlist.

Of a different sort, I don't quite see the hype with Joyce Carol Oates, but others do seem to throw praise at her like rice at a wedding. Except continually. In print. So she may have something going for her, and if anybody would like to elucidate what's the selling point on her work, and if her novels are of similar quality to her much-lauded short works, it'd be appreciated.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:46 / 05.06.07
I read "Brass" by Helen Walsh a couple of years ago and it wasn't bad actually. It is pretty dark, the characterisation is brutal and it wasn't the book that I enjoyed the most that year (which was Madame by Antoni Libera, which is sometimes also credited to a female author, which I find confusing) but if someone was looking for something in that genre I'd probably suggest it.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
12:47 / 05.06.07
I'd take Virginia Woolf, Susan Straight, Alice Walker, and even almost the thickest ponies-for-dragons Ann Mccaffrey novel out there over referring to Henry James as the height of literariness and quality.

Well, literariness I don't give a fig about, as anything written down is literature; I do care about quality. Virginia Woolf is as good as Henry James, in an obviously different form ... the others, no. Anne McCaffrey better? You really think so? Which James novels have you been reading? Remember they were written for serialisation in newspapers, for people who didn't have busy lives and TV.

In any case, the fact that Henry James had his genitalia crushed by a fire pump at the age of seven or so probably makes this more complicated if we want to gender him. He was often praised for his abilities of observation - social observation - and compared less with other male novellists than with the Bronte troupe, who you are right to list as good examples.

Entertainment value's my new measure against 'literariness' which has always seemed to be entirely too specious a beast.

Straw men fighting eachother. I also do not hold with any division, within written material, between "literature" and "not literature". My shopping list is literature. Shakespeare is literature. A lolcat is literature. The difference is between great, and not-great, literature - that which is not a waste of paper and that which is.

I mean ... sure, we should appreciate the real values of a toy aeroplane, but it won't fly us over the ocean any time soon.

I also think that, however much there might be idiots claiming a false distinction between "literature" and "not-literature", there's also a good chance that this itself is a kind of stereotype. I think if you ever find yourself saying the "literariness" of something puts you off, it's best to think back through all the layers of accumulated acclaim to when the thing was actually written, the world it was written into, and to the fact that it was always intended to be enjoyed by someone. Otherwise you're hating the band for the fans.

And in closing, I can't help point out a fair number of dead white fellows wrote "suspiciously sentimental novels with pastel-coloured covers about women and the third world" including E.M. Forster, or else we wouldn't have had A Passage to India and striking the third-world fiat, Howards End. I actually like the latter, but Passage I suspect will read worse and worse as we evolve socially and ought to've been insulting to a good many people when initially published.

Those books were published to their immediate audience in hardback with morroco calf covers. They're also, despite their obvious (to us, like HoD) faults, entirely not suspiciously sentimental in the way I'm talking about. In fact the tone of Passage is dry, throughout, even when describing violence/points at which stuff is travelling up shit creek; and riddled with dodgy representations it may be, but rounded those representations are. Which doesn't mean to say that the characters are anything like real Indians, but they do fulfill the neccesaries to qualify as "interesting characters in a novel", with drives, controversies, and so on.

If Passage to India was sentimental in the way I'm talking about, it would read as "Oh no! Indians irrational! Hindus and Muslims hate, hate, hate eachother! Wassawhitemangonnado?", and you wouldn't get the massively complex relationships between the characters, whereas, in actuality, it's a sort of weary, skeletal dissection of the social scene and it's collapse, with an emergent theme of homosexuality.

Doubtless Forster had a market; doubtless he was working for money, as we all do; but I don't think his motives in writing PtI are the same as those of people who write supermarket novels. I think he has a lot more respect for his audience, for one thing.

Thankyou for the Baraka information, I will look it up. I have done a chunk of Postcolonial studies so I'm aware that only an idiot would claim Classic Realism to be the only way to do literature, and I wouldn't want to be that idiot.

What I would say is it's all very well holding up the Talking Drum as an example of an alternative, and valid, story-telling method, but, saying that Classic Realism isn't the only way is not a valid excuse for writing a bad Classic Realist novel, which really means ANY book that might be called a novel. If you sit down and say "I will write a novel", and if you don't specify Modernism, you mean Classic Realism, and you sign up to Classic Realism's Ts & Cs. You can't allow sloppy characterisation and faulty plot by saying it's "magical realist", you can't allow cliche by saying it's an archetype from myth. And most of all you can't allow sentiment, and moralising, on the grounds that it's "a woman's story", because among other things that's hugely sexist. And these are all dodgy wheezes I've seen pulled at Universities by people who really should know better. I haven't had any coffee either.
 
 
Blake Head
15:42 / 05.06.07
Sorry, veering offtopic but I read Brass a few years ago as part of a new writers promotion the bookshop I was working in was putting on and thought it was dreadfully indulgent and poorly written, and the impression I got from other readers was similar. From what I remember it took every opportunity to confuse a wilful vulgarity and pursuit of edginess with realism and depth. It really isn't a book I would suggest anyone read.
 
  
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