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Underground > Temple >

Teach him how to fix and tine the moon?

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01:02 / 15.05.07

This has popped up on an alan moore discussion forum, anyone able to assist?

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

A friend asks:

"I'm currently translating Alan Moore's VOICE OF THE FIRE, and stumbling over a perplexing expression. One of the characters has gone to Doctor Dee and promised him one hundred pounds if he 'should teach him how to fix and tine the moon'."

Does anyone know what this means, precisely?

Thanks
Jean

01:27 / 15.05.07

Meaningful silence.

*

02:17 / 15.05.07

Jean, for your future reference, this should have gone in comics or in conversation if anywhere at all. There's a dedicated thread in conversation for questions you can't be bothered to research yourself. That's probably why Alex's Grandma seems a little miffed at you (besides that she's a well-seasoned woman and forgets her fiber supplement some days).

In the interest of speed and efficiency, here you go:

Tine—
v. t. [See Tind.] To kindle; to set on fire. [Obs.] See Tind. "To tine the cloven wood." Dryden.

"Coals of contention and hot vengeance tind." Spenser.

That took me .10 seconds on Google.

02:58 / 15.05.07

to clarify,

(and appologies if my top post was unclear...)

i am not jean, i am thewalker. jean asked the question via an alan moore message board. several learned people seem unable to answer the question, it is winding its way to the magus as we speak, however it would be nice to get it answered this century.....

I dont believe the question should have gone anywhere else, it is particularly a question on Magiks. and is not too dissimilar to recent questions in the temple about binding sexual desires, sin eaters, aa and magik, and so on...and since it is a magik query (heh) i figured people that are more likely to be able to answer are here, in the temple (blessed it may be)

We are not after a definition of Tine, we are particularly interested in what Doctor Dee would be doing if he were to fix and tine the moon. And often in matters such as these being able to understand the separate words does not bring us much closer to understanding the meaning.

I do appreciate your not being able to understand my question, and also appreciate the gift of the definition and time/distraction spent on the search, considering that, i also appreciate the gentle tone of your reply.

*

03:36 / 15.05.07

Sorry for misunderstanding you, thewalker. I appreciate your willingness to elaborate a bit. This still is about fiction, though, not magic per se, unless you are reading this novel as an instructional text for magical practice (caveat lector!), or this line is taken from an actual text by John Dee. We are here looking, in other words, at the character of John Dee in a fiction novel by Alan Moore, and what this character might be doing by fixing and tining the moon—or still more nicely, what this other character in the novel might be asking him to do. As such, I can't help you, since I haven't read the book and don't know much about Alan Moore's magical background. If you were to try to understand the magic of John Dee by means of fiction about a character based on John Dee, it would be a treacherous sort of trick to try, and not one I feel I could be much assistance with.

Understanding the novel better by means of making some educated guesses about what magical traditions have influenced Alan Moore seems like a more sensible goal. One could start with Astrology, which holds the moon to be the seat of the emotions and the needs we keep hidden. What might it mean to this character to fix and rekindle that part of hirself? That, to me, is a more interesting question.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:24 / 15.05.07

We are not after a definition of Tine,

Yeah, we are. Your friend is translating "the Voice of the Fire", and is therefore looking for the definition of "tine", in order to translate it. To fix and tine the moon presumably means to hold the moon in place and set it on fire. Unless, of course, there is some other, poetic, meaning of "tine", possibly derived from the noun "tine" meaning the point of a stag's antlers. Thus, to (trans)fix and impale the moon, posibly, meaning again to hold it in place. Or it could, and I rather hope it is, be a misprint of "time", which would be great.

05:37 / 15.05.07

One of the characters has gone to Doctor Dee and promised him one hundred pounds if he 'should teach him how to fix and tine the moon'."

Does anyone know what this means, precisely?

The first thing that comes into my head after seeing what tine means, would be that the character is asking Doctor Dee to teach hir how to stabilize hir unconscious contents (moon/lunar aspect of hirself) and then bring them forward into consciousness (tine, set fire to, active the contents.) so that they can be perceived, comprehended, and then worked on, which is often one of the ultimate goals of psychology and magic.

That's what I'm getting here anyway. Like : "Could you teach me how to locate the parts of my mind that I can't get to? So that I can remain focused on them and bring them forward?"

05:49 / 15.05.07

aye,but a definition in context, surely.

there seem to be several drastically different meanings of tine from various languages and scientific disciplines. And i am not sure that a direct translation would be the best idea as most of the novel in question as actually artfully arranged fact/history/legend therefore understanding the meaning of the phrase is an important first step.

reason i asked here (apart from the fact that you are all the most eloquent, intelligent, balanced, non-faker bunch of occult talkers in the universe) is that you lot are certainly gonna come up with some good theories, as well as (ideally) knowing enough about John Dee to actually know exactly what he was up to.

05:52 / 15.05.07

...which also sounds exactly like an alchemical operation aswell. The very first thing I thought of before reading what tine meant was alchemy. The 'fix' part especially, which could refer to an alchemical process, but I'm not very clued up on alchemy and can't think of where you'd use a firing process after something is fixed. Will have a look around and post back if I find anything though.

06:06 / 15.05.07

Hmm, after having a look at a book and reading a little about salt (a lunar aspect if you take the main alchemical trinity as salt = body/female, sulphur = spirit/male, mercury = balancing agent between the two.) I'd personally take the meaning to be that the character is asking how the Moon can be fixed and set fire to, in order to burn off it's negative side (it having a dual nature and all.) and retain only the positive side which is beneficial.

This is purely my personal take though, and in no way am I assuming that this is what Alan Moore actually meant with this.

06:14 / 15.05.07

thanks te, its a new and helpful perspective.

16:46 / 15.05.07

Dude, I think it's almost certainly a typo or misprint for Trine;
In astrology, a trine is an astrological aspect formed when a planet, point, or other celestial body is 120 degrees away from another planet, point or celestial body.
Trines are considered to be highly beneficial aspects, instilling fortune on those individuals who have them in their natal or progressed horoscopes.

16:59 / 15.05.07

...I have read Voice of the Fire, and I think it's most likely Moore wrote it as the guy wanting Dee to teach him Astrology, which he was famed for.
It *could* be tind, like tinder, kindling the moon etc. but I think it's less likely.

17:20 / 15.05.07

On the other hand, it is a fire-themed book. Poking about I found this old (17thC) verse by Robert Herrick which uses the word, 'Ceremonies for Christmas';

With the last year's brand
Light the new block, and
For good success in his spending,
On your Psaltries play,
That sweet luck may
Come while the log is a-tinding.

...and in this;

Another to the Maids
Wash your hands, or else the fire
Will not tind to your desire;
Unwashed hands, ye maidens, know,
Dead the fire, though ye blow.

With Alan's reputation for thoroughness and love of history it's possible he was using seventeenth century language, and is referring to some obscure alchemical lunar rite about burning the moon. I've never heard of any such thing though, and can't find any reference to anything like that on the net, so I'm sticking with the Trine typo as most likely, 'fixing the moon' being plotting it on a horoscope or using a sextant to take it's position.

17:55 / 15.05.07

We are not after a definition of TINE

Yes, we are

No, we are not. At least, not exactly. Speaking as a translator, I can say that to translate a multiple words expression (in this case, "to fix and tine the moon") is totally different frm traslating the individuals words of said expression (in this case "tine", but also, "fix" and "the moon"), for the expression could have a completely different meaning.

For instance, in Generation Hex, which I`m reading now, there are more than one reference to a magick techiniue enviosioned by Burrowghs calling "cut-out" (or something like that, not with the book in hand rigth now), that is a lot more than just cutting stuff-out. I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. "fixing and tining the moon" could very well refer to a complex ritual with only ametaphorical name. Hence, the caution of Jen. I'm sure you also understand this, Haus.

Dude, if I was not out of town, I'd pick up my Portuguese version of VOICE OF FIRE ("A VOZ DO FOGO"), and tell you how the translator handled it for you, so you'd have a reference. As it is, you will have to wait another week and a half. I'll PM you then and ask if you're still interested.

18:37 / 15.05.07

it's possible he was using seventeenth century language, and is referring to some obscure alchemical lunar rite about burning the moon. I've never heard of any such thing though, and can't find any reference to anything like that on the net,

Hah, yeah, finding alchemy related things can often be a nightmare on the net, and most of the time you're just directed back to levity.com, which is a great site, but it'd be good if more were around so we had more sources. If you check in the future though, adding rite or ritual won't really help so often, especially with western alchemy, because it's usually written as a chemical/scientific type operation, and less linked with magic in the way it's written. I just found these two after having a quick look :

David to this purpose gives us a similitude of Luna, which must sometimes pass the Fire, before it attain its utmost purity. This art of cleansing things with Fire, was by the Philosophers of old termed Ysopaica, of which see Paracelsus.

And from the same page : "with your above said Composition, kindle the Mass, and the proceeding Flames will graduate some part of the Venus into good and fix Luna with considerable profit, the Operation being rightly performed."

Things like this are literally scattered all over the place in alchemy, and are repeated over and over again, but of course they liked to try and hide what they meant, so to gather up a large percentage of different writing referring to the same thing/event, you're going to need to know quite a few of the different names that a certain metal/ingredient/operation would have. It can be pretty frustrating sometimes, but maybe that's what they had to do quite a bit back then in order to avoid the wrath of dogmatic religious people hunting them down. Or maybe they just liked being annoying half the time and had a good laugh as people tried to unscramble their texts with little or no luck..

18:38 / 15.05.07

Just looking at what has been written so far, a thought occurs to me: The moon has dark phases. The moon has a dark side that isn't visible to us. Both of these may be candidates for lighting?

Perhaps there's something significant to stopping the moon while it's dark, and illuminating it?

--Ember--

Mako is a hungry fish

04:00 / 16.05.07

...how to fix and tine the moon

Fix can mean secure in position, and a tine is a fork/prong used to do so.

It might also be a reference to occasions when a fine a mist sheathes the night sky, and the light of the full moon extends in concentric circles; basically you have the full moon in the centre, a circular rainbow surrounding this, a bit of a gap and then another circular rainbow, all with a pearly sheen.

It looks like a giant eye, and when directly overhead it's very very big, and very very 'loud', and apparently a sign of Ra's favor.

05:13 / 16.05.07

Ahh... That's really neat, I think I'm going with your idea on this now, it feels like it fits a lot better.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

08:09 / 16.05.07

For instance, in Generation Hex, which I`m reading now, there are more than one reference to a magick techiniue enviosioned by Burrowghs calling "cut-out" (or something like that, not with the book in hand rigth now), that is a lot more than just cutting stuff-out.

Cut up, pickle. It's called cut-up. And yes, the basic technique consists of cutting up a text, literally, physically, taking the paper and cutting it to pieces. Rearranging it so that it doesn't make the same kind of sense it originally made... seeing where it takes you.

08:20 / 16.05.07

Can it not just be a throwaway line in a novel. Just because Mr Moore practices the magics doesn't mean his every fucking sentence and turn-of-phrase has to be loaded with occult significance.

09:03 / 16.05.07

Just because Mr Moore practices the magics doesn't mean his every fucking sentence and turn-of-phrase has to be loaded with occult significance.

Well it must have referred to something, and when I'm bored I like to mess around trying to figure out where it came from. Anyway, are you new around here? Either way, cut that foul language out.

Haha, welcome back man, not seen you around here in fucking ages. If I helped wind you up and made you post, I'd consider it a job well done.

09:05 / 16.05.07

Oh, guess it's those damn name changes. You've probably been around the whole time. (you might remember me as Xyu/Firewave.)

09:16 / 16.05.07

Lots of interesting possibilities, but I do want to point out that in the context of the Alan Moore book, someone is asking Dee to teach them something. What exactly would that be, if the meanings we're proposing are correct?
(PS Mako, I tried to fix your pic but no joy)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

09:23 / 16.05.07

(I see Mako's pic.)

Mako is a hungry fish

11:11 / 16.05.07

Can it not just be a throwaway line in a novel.

I think it's very important to keep in mind that Mr Moore is an author, and whilst he may have a firm theoretical knowledge of magic (most likely a practical one as well) this doesn't mean that he doesn't just make shit up; it's a common literary/bullshitting technique to 'use a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down' as the best lies are always hidden in truth.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that because of this theoretical knowledge, most of the time when he makes shit up it's pretty close to the truth - sort of like how Mandeleev was able to 'make shit up' with the periodic table of elements. Also, if he does have practical knowledge, chances are that he's tapped into some thing at some point that's using him as an outlet for its ideas.

Most importantly of all, I think that when we analyse a creation we often attribute meanings to it that its creator never intended, and our analysis (a creation in itself) speaks more of the path we've walked than its creator. In this instance, whether or not any of the above is Mr Moore's intention is largely irrelevant in terms of occult significance, if occult significance can be read into it by its audience.

someone is asking Dee to teach them something. What exactly would that be

"Teach me how to rule the heavens, to set the stars in the sky and the planets in their orbits - help this mircocosmic man become a macrocosmic god."

100 pounds seems like a bargain really, though probably not what such a teacher would desire.

12:03 / 16.05.07

Why the hell can't we just e-mail these people and ask them? It annoys me. It's not a hard thing to respond to, but these.......heh, yeah, they probably have tons of e-mails, forgot about that bit. Anyone got Moorie's e-mail addy so we can ask? I'm just curious now, but that's probably because I should be doing other things and would rather just piss around.

It's interesting though. Fix and tine the fucking moon? It's a wierd thing to just add into your writing, and I still think that he must've had some point of reference for it, even if it doesn't turn out to be very interesting.

I'm still going with the idea that it's just a simple reference to the Egyptian Moon in a tine anyway.

12:05 / 16.05.07

(ah- it's my work firewall blocking the pic, that's why)

this doesn't mean that he doesn't just make shit up

Like the 'lost' major arcana he invented in Promethea.

12:10 / 16.05.07

Anyone got Moorie's e-mail addy so we can ask?

Someone's already sent one (see 4th post) and, well, good luck.
I still think trine. It's the sort of word spellcheckers bugger up.

16:52 / 16.05.07

Awesome, hope there's a response.

Mako is a hungry fish

13:03 / 17.05.07

The picture is of Hathor, an egytptian Goddess, and was posted because the Moon is afixed to her head between several tines.

Like the 'lost' major arcana he invented in Promethea.

Exactly, and whilst I think it irrelevant from the viewpoint of finding occult significance as to whether or not it was intentionally put there, I think that from the viewpoint of his intentionally putting it there it is highly relevant. Given that he often creates his stories within established frame works and is somewhat free in artistic license when it comes to expanding upon them, and fails to make it clear when he is deviating from established ideas, I think that at such times he's guilty of being a bullshit artist.

This is both in terms of pragmatic bullshit where associations are made from his work (such as his being a magician or that his works are of occult significance), and semantic bullshit where the truth is made meaningless in order to pursue a goal (such as telling a story or selling a product). Due to the nature of the medium it is presented in and the esoteric topic it discusses, in most circumstances this bullshit is allowed to slide; a comic book about magic isn't going to be under as much scrutiny as a text book on physics, nor will its success depend on accuracy.

Given that some people see magic as being a mostly experiential and underground activity, a comic book can seem to be the ideal medium for magical teaching as its focus is on the experiences of its characters, and it's not as bound by the limitations of cultural expectancy and curricular standards as other mediums. In the case of bullshit, this can make it a subversive tool against magical theory and practice if the bullshit is accepted.

07:39 / 18.05.07

I think that at such times he's guilty of being a bullshit artist.

i know what you mean, i do think however that he assumes you,the reader, agree with and understand his views on all things occult. That it IS acceptable to make things up as you go along, and that magik is purely the act of creation, and creation an act of magik, and therefore any mixing and matching is fine and dandy.

however i do agree with your thoughts on this. my (possibly limited) experience with magik has made me believe that sometimes bullshit is fine, even of benefit, particularly since most of my negative experiences have been with over earnest practicioners.

Do many people think his work is damaging to the occult in general?

07:43 / 18.05.07

and an update on the translation:

Thanks to everyone who researched / suggested meanings for tining the
moon: I've passed them on.

The query about magical terms came from Patrick Marcel, who is currently
translating Voice of the Fire into French, for publication by
Calmann-Levy, probably at the end of this year, beginning of next. I was
surprised that it hadn't already been published in France, but there you go.

He says "Fortunately, so far, the editor isn't barking at my shins, so I
have time to try and polish out the rough spots. If only with the Stone
Age sequence, I have quite a few."

I think we all guessed that section would be tricky...

Jean

07:46 / 18.05.07

and a thanks from me also,

i have to add that The 'lith is a place of wonder and joy, many thanks to all who sail in her.

your words and ideals flow through the universe like sparkling trails of light borne time.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:47 / 18.05.07

Do many people think his work is damaging to the occult in general?

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. All his chaff about lost arcana is really getting in the way of the true, straight-arrow occult knowledge about the Jewish conspiracy and the insect Haitian god mob. His marginal interaction with and success within the mainstream is, frankly, tantamount to taking my kitten and stamping over and over again on its head.

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