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Deities Petitioning

 
 
Stigma Enigma
06:53 / 08.05.07
Some time last year I read Gaiman's "American Gods" which approached the idea that the various deities throughout history derive power from the collective belief/practice of their followers.

Although raised Catholic, I fell away from the church and now I'm full of little tidbits...be it Buddha, J.C., Ganesh, Hendrix, Dionysus, Pan, Jah, you name it. Sixteen years of indoctrination have left me very unwilling to
stick to one system, I'm just filtering among many at this point.

I visited a friend last weekend in what turned into a contemporary Christian retreat complete with bible study and a Sunday service featuring a rock and roll (ish?) band.

Towards the end of the service, one speaker shifted to the notion of the "jealousy" of the Biblical God. Brings to mind...

Old Testament:
The Ten Commandments (i.e. no false idols "before me")

and

New Testament:
"none come to the father except through me"

The week before this all happened I had been studying Dionysian elements in Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises which ended up...in true Morrison fiction/reality overlap...spilling over into my own life.

After a good night full of divine-Dionysian-honey-lager-induced inspiration, a weekend of Christian dialogue and community, and a successful petition today to Ganesh, I'm starting to think more about "jealous" Gods and myself caught between their pulls.

Hence, the title of this thread. How do you feel about this? Do you ever feel the gods are competing for your time/devotion/thoughts/bodily fluids/soul?

Its funny, I remember the Our Father....."lead us not into temptation"...isn't the hope of salvation or anything offered by any deity through devotion tempting in itself?

Oh, when I was a kid, the big guy in the sky was so infallible. Now its a competition. Although, I'm happy to be able to exercise freedom of choice.
 
 
electric monk
12:44 / 08.05.07
Are the gods fighting over you?

No, I don't think that they are. I'm not sure why any of them would make the fuss.

It's been my experience that there's nothing wrong with introducing yourself around to a few divine beings, as long as you're respectful and put the proper effort in to it. Nor is there anything wrong with sticking with a god, goddess, or even some gods and/or goddesses you feel close to. That, at least, was very much my experience when I was casting about, happily hopping from god to god. I never got the feeling that anybody minded the various arrangements, as long as I put in some time with each and gave space to each. There was never an etheric tug-of-war over my soul or fluids or any of that. So I'm not sure using the "worship as life force" model is especially useful. It's an interesting lens to study things through, I'll grant you. But I'm not sure the gods need worship in that way, if they can be said to need it at all.

Where does this feeling of division or "pull" come from?
 
 
Quantum
13:09 / 08.05.07
I read Gaiman's "American Gods" which approached the idea that the various deities throughout history derive power from the collective belief/practice of their followers.

I'm afraid Gaiman doesn't get much support round these parts, and the idea that deities derive power from worship like food gets a lot of criticism. See also Pratchett's small gods.
I don't know much about deity work, but my conception of gods doesn't include their subservience to or dependence on humanity. I think they have an existence entirely independent of human worship (also outside time, space etc. but that's a different can of wyrms) and the idea that if we all stop believing in Baldur he'll cease to exist seems a bit simplistic, as though gods were balloons inflated with the breath of their believers.
 
 
Haloquin
13:46 / 08.05.07
"as though gods were balloons inflated with the breath of their believers." - Quantum
I love this image!

One theory I've come across (not sure if it was in my head or outside) is that deities who enjoy working with humans do get benefits from having more followers... mostly that there are more people to talk to and work with, there are more people who can effect change in the world in a human way, and more people are open to that deity's suggestions (which is great if they enjoy meddling, or generally have an invested interest in part of our world).
And some do seem to get jealous, although I don't think (anymore) that it is because they 'eat our worship', just that they are individuals who love the exclusive attention.

Its interesting to wonder if deities are able to have more influence if more people believe in them, simply because its easier for them to poke people as they have a stronger hold on the general society's subconscious (dangerous use of words... sorry, but I hope its clear what I mean).
 
 
Quantum
13:56 / 08.05.07
I'm wary of the concept of gods fighting over believers like jealous lovers.
 
 
grant
14:25 / 08.05.07
One theory I've come across (not sure if it was in my head or outside) is that deities who enjoy working with humans do get benefits from having more followers...

There were Greek & Roman supplications to gods that involved threats of withholding worship if the god didn't come through.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
16:27 / 08.05.07
I joined this board to learn from you all so I'm glad this is getting some replies. Keyword: learn, not argue.

I agree with the notion of an "independent existence", but I don't think its too farfetched to attribute a "jealous lover" quality to one of these entities...I used to consider this more unique to the Greek/Roman gods and goddesses but last weekend gave me reason to broaden my perspective.

Some might feel attributing human qualities/failings in this way is diminishing and others may find it makes an imtimidating, powerful force easier to relate to and less threatening.

Where does this feeling of division or "pull" come from?

I get various signs that some of these forces want to be "followed", I just get wary of the sheep/shepherd rhetoric...although I have no problem having guides pop up at the side of my individual path in the darkness.

I definitely get the pull of "demons", whether they be within my psyche or an actual external entity (Asmodeus in particular, agh), so I don't think its going too far to say that there could be a pull between divine beings. Maybe its simply an inner struggle to establish an individual faith.

"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other.

Granted this was linked specifically to God vs. wealth/Mammon, just giving an example of how this might pop up in Christian rhetoric and be applied to the greater issue.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
16:28 / 08.05.07
"No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other.

By the way....that's Matthew 6:24.

If you were wondering.
 
 
electric monk
17:31 / 08.05.07
Did you leave the Catholic faith fairly recently, Easy?

I don't mean to sound snarky there. That's a genuine question, asked in good faith. Reason I ask is that it sounds to me like you're carrying over a lot of Christian ideas of divinity into your magical practice. My readings of what you've written here + past experience doing exactly that may be leading me astray here, and sorry if that's the case. Your posts in this thread are pinging for me in that way tho, and so I had to ask.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
00:05 / 09.05.07
I left the Catholic faith...8 years ago? Gradually, of course...but somewhere in the middle of high school...

I have been using these particular Biblical references because they were directly quoted this last weekend by others during Christian gatherings.

As I get deeper into various faiths it certainly highlights the faith of my youth in new ways...but I doubt I will ever be fully aware the extent to which its spilling over into my practice.

A lot of my experience has been shamanic, animist, mystical, I'm realizing as I learn about those particular faiths...it seems like I'm shifting from redemption vs. salvation to ignorance vs. knowledge (how appropriate that I joined this board, eh?)

The Invisibles is more scripture to me than any other piece of writing, actually. I don't mean in terms of infallibility, but in terms of my direct experience in reading it and how it interacted/interacts with my life.

Its uncanny.

Maybe you could help me understand what you mean by "Christian ideas of divinity"?

I have only recently "consciously" begun magical practice although it seems I've been into it pretty heavily for awhile but just not calling it magic.

Thanks for avoiding the snarkiness. This IS a temple after all. But seriously, I appreciate the sincerity.

Eazy
 
 
misterdomino.org
02:27 / 09.05.07
Well, people 'round these here parts might not be defining gods as sentient beings with their own agendas, but rather as archetypes of emotions or ideas that people choose to manifest as sentient beings in their subjective little bubbles. But, I don't wanna speak for anyone here, so feel free to argue me. I totally know what you mean about the Invisibles as scripture though, I've said the same thing to people.
 
 
electric monk
03:45 / 09.05.07
Maybe you could help me understand what you mean by "Christian ideas of divinity"?

I'll try. TBH, looking at that phrase now, it feels pretty loaded. Laden with generalization, y'know? What I was trying to express was a personal feeling of...well, a humanizing of God. Assigning emotions and human-like characteristics to something that is ineffable. Or, at least, something that is beyond everyday experience. I do understand that gods can present themselves in states that seem emotion-based, but I'm not sure that those states can be read simply as "emotion". Whatever the emotion is.

If something does seem to want your attention, give it your attention by all means. If that's going to interfere in some way with whatever regular devotion you've got going on, check with your previous commitment and see what it has to say about it. Work out new arrangements if you need to. I suppose you could say it's like a relationship in some ways, but to cast what you're building as simply that ignores a greater complexity.

There were Greek & Roman supplications to gods that involved threats of withholding worship if the god didn't come through.

You must tell more now.
 
 
electric monk
04:00 / 09.05.07
Invisibles as scripture

Let's... not get too carried away here.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
07:59 / 09.05.07
Sound advice Monk. I appreciate the attention you have given to this.

But yes, the Invisibles is the closest thing I have to scripture in terms of a text I can relate to. I was listening to a conversion story of a man who switched to Islam after reading the Q'uran and feeling the words fit perfectly, or spoke to him.

Very much like my Invisibles experience. Yet, I didn't feel it was an attempt to indoctrinate me either. That's the beauty of it. It spoke so amazingly to me, yet said "figure it out for yourself." But.....tangent.

My point is, I will give attention to that which seeks my attention, actually in the last 24 hours checking up on the board and ruminating on the subject has resolved matters quite well. Thanks for your words of encouragement.
 
 
EmberLeo
08:46 / 09.05.07
From a working with way too many invisible friends perspective:

Do the gods/spirits* seem to compete for my time and attention? Absoloutely! But for the most part not jealously. It's just that my time is finite, and I must always make choices, so any time there are more demands on my time than I can meet, those demands are ultimately in competition with eachother whether they intend to be or not.

And the available bandwidth I may spend paying attention to the powers that be is no exception.

I haven't stopped asking why the hell They are willing to make any kind of a fuss at all, but I've gotten used to being smacked for it in lieu of an actual answer.

All that said, I know other people over whom many of those same powers are jealous. Each relationship is it's own, as far as I'm concerned.

I have also noticed, within my own personal practice, that there seems to be a certain hierarchy of how the various powers relate to eachother through me, and if I fail to accurately percieve what it is somebody gets grumpy.

For example:
Freya and Ghede had a little snippy argument in my head one time. Freya was set to allow Oxun the space to speak with me. Ghede considered it His territory to be my gateway to any other African power. Freya argued that Oxun is an Orixa, not a Lwa, and thus not under Ghede's jurisdiction as my Lwa head. Ghede pointed out that Odin is of the Aesir not the Vanir, but Freya would throw a fit if Ghede presumed to let Odin in without Her say. Freya conceded. Ghede had His turn with me, and then let Oxun in. And all I got to do was sit back and watch it go by. *Shrugs*

--Ember--

* I work with various Pagan gods (Mostly Germanic/Scandinavian) and with the Afro-Diasporic Orixa and Lwa spirits, who insist on NOT being called "gods".
 
 
This Sunday
08:57 / 09.05.07
Since I'm coming from an upbringing that has people (of various sorts) and not gods, I'm not so big on the contract as a method of associating or socializing. I'll do nice things, on occasion, for people, but like putting food or burning a cig for dead friends or complete strangers, it's not an issue of a pay-off or requesting/demanding such.

Even if I expect a favor returned or payback, I would really be torn about saying something like that. Believe/feel what you do, but acting on it is something else.

I should probably teach myself to do it more, with human people, even. Might get me further. But seeing the look one someone's face when you just randomly hand them a flower or offer them some cake is works pretty well in life, yeah?

My grandfather likes to tell me that a charge, a fee, is an admission of inherent distrust. You do it when it's the smoothest way to handle something - because it's expected, because it isn't hurting you and it's making the other party more comfortable - but if it's unnecessary, just do your part and presume the other party will come through if they feel like it. Of course, he likes to say he distrusts everybody up through higher powers, but I haven't noted his behaviour's actually structured by that, true or not.

If a god were playing massive psychodrama chess games for you, why would you want to be played, anyway? My brother used to change the rules when he was losing in chess. Another brother used to hurl game pieces across the room when he was losing. I don't want to be hurled if I don't have to be.
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:45 / 09.05.07
~~~***>>>---"If a god were playing massive psychodrama chess games for you, why would you want to be played, anyway? My brother used to change the rules when he was losing in chess. Another brother used to hurl game pieces across the room when he was losing. I don't want to be hurled if I don't have to be."---<<<***~~~

Sometimes it can be an option to become the board or environment the game is being played upon. Watch how the pieces are moved through you, get a little insight into the rules and what various pieces are playing for. Always remembering thou that even boards can be lifted and chucked or snapped in two.

Alternatively as suggested above, it might just be easier to treat yourself as a player, than as a pawn. The whole figure it out for yourself angle.
 
 
grant
13:30 / 09.05.07
monk: I'll have to look up the example I'm thinking of -- it doesn't show up on Google. It was Cato the Elder, I think, talking about a prayer in a grove outside some big city. May have been someone else.

In Roman prayer, the phrase "do ut des" was important: "I give so that you give."

I did find some interesting observations on Roman human sacrifice at the Societas Via Romana.
 
 
Lord Switch
21:12 / 09.05.07
May I indulge my thoughts on the subject and play devils advocate?

In a lot of hermetic thought, that is to say western esotericism, there is a tendency to view the Gods and Goddesses as heavily relying on human followers. This is because in a lot of western mystery traditions and even in the "olde pagane religions(e)" There was the concept of one higher divine supreme ruling force that the lesser gods and esses were emanations or aspects of. these aspects are by nature reliant on humans because if humans didn't chose to worship them or acknowledge them they woulnd't exist. This is prevalent in a lot of Greek and Roman versions of godly mysteries, historically speaking.

Some of you will argue and say that the gods will exist no matter if anyone believes in them/worships them or not. I agree that the force that God represents will be there no matter what, though I seriously doubt that the gods themselves who are but representatives/antropomorhic representtaions of the force are just as immortal and unreliant on humanity. The oldest religions always carried the notion that gods could die if left unworshipped and neglected. In egyptian thought there is the whole idea of souls and bodies of the deities.

Now as some might be pagan, it leads us into the battlefield of faith. If I would be pagan and follow the norse pantheon fully, without acknowledging the existence of other gods and science then I might say that the world was created by my gods. the christians/wiccans/chaoites/woodooists etc of you would probably object. which leads us into another territory: If my gods are true AND your gods are true and they all exist at the same time, and I call the sun Balder, and you call it Therion and he calls it Apollo and they call it Lugh, then perhaps it is more like the fact that the gods we worship emerged children between Us, humans, and the thing the various Gods are Gods of (the sun for example)
Human>>>Balder/Therion/Apollo/Helios<<<
Now how could gods stop existing? How can a God be relliant on humans to worship them?

Well, name the god that was worshipped at the site where Berlin is now 2435 B.C.
No? thought not. We don't know that God because it doesn't exist anymore. It is dead. noone worships it anymore, and the people who did worship it didn't do it enough.

Name the God they worshipped in Heliopolis 2435 B.C.
Ra. what? yepp, he is called Ra, he is the god of the sun, has the head of a hawk with a serpent entwined about a solar disc upon it...
How do we know this? because this God is still alive. The people who worshipped him made sure that he would not be forgotten and as long as he exists in the mind of anyone he will continue existing. pictures, statues, buried offerings, they all help keep the gods alive.

If we look at ancestral worship as it was done historically and is done today in places that still practice ancestor worship (and I don't mean the do it yourself kind, but institutionalised religions we will see that the ancestors are remembered and fed in order to stay strong. They exist as remembrances. In japan thats how the notion of the Kami came to be.

Devils advocating now done :P
 
 
EmberLeo
22:02 / 09.05.07
Despite Scholars noting that He fits some aspects of a Solar deity, Baldr isn't the sun. That's Sunna, and She is a lovely goddess who gets chased by wolves along with Her brother Mani, the moon. At least that's how all the Heathens I know handle it.

I think my view of the birth/death of Deities vs. the powers They represent is similar to what you describe, and for similar reasons. I also add into it the perspective that the identity behind the faces and names we refer to shift and change over time, and also that they seem to get more than one identity behind them depending on context.

There are faces of "Odin" who insist up down left and right that Odin NEVER does posession. There are faces of "Odin" who agree with Neo-Nazis that only lily-white people should ever call on Him, because He reviles all others. And then there's the Odin I have encountered the most, that those I work with and talk to regularly all agree does indeed drop in for a chat through someone else's mouth from time to time - sometimes without warning. And that fellow seems to quite like all kinds of people, wanderer that He is.

I don't entirely believe that when those Neo-Nazi types invoke Odin they get nothing. So something is indeed responding to their invocations and prayers, and something apparently quite different is responding to ours. By the same name, with the same imagery. How can this be if there is no human element in how the gods manifest to us? I believe that whatever is ultimately behind Odin most likely has it's own existence beyond humanity, though I have no way to know for sure. But it seems clear that we do indeed have some role in shaping the gods we see.

That doesn't necessarily imply that those manifestations care one bit if that particular face, name, or personality of that god dissapears, because what is behind it will continue on regardless. But it's usually part of the manifestation to behave as though they mind. I suppose that's about the same as me minding, in this life, if I live or die despite the fact that I firmly believe that my soul will continue on it's way down whatever path exists for it long after I have shed this particular body.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:27 / 10.05.07
I might say that the world was created by my gods. the christians/wiccans/chaoites/woodooists etc of you would probably object.

Only because I find the idea of taking creation myths literally a bit... well, silly, really.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:33 / 10.05.07
I don't entirely believe that when those Neo-Nazi types invoke Odin they get nothing.

See, I have no problem believing that at all. I don't think they do get anything, generally. I've never seen one of the lily-white types describe anyting I would recognise as a contact experience; in fact, the Folkie end of things seems to be bound up with an insistance that the Gods do not speak to us and that direct-contact deity and spirit work is for them fluffy Wiccan types.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:44 / 10.05.07
In the area that would later become berlin at around that time burial customs included battle axe heads that were carved just for burial, along with other ritualistic burial arrangements that differed for men and women.

Not berlin and earlier but it may intrest you - Archaeologists Unearth German Stonehenge The Nebra disc from a latter period is just as fascinating.
 
 
grant
13:45 / 10.05.07
I may have misspoke about the Greeks -- what I remembered was a passage from a book strictly about the Romans. It's also a sliiiightly more contractual arrangement than I remembered.

From The Romans and Their Gods in the Age of Augustus by R.M. Ogilvie:
In so far as it was possible for human beings to do anything which would merit divine gratitude, the Romans tried to earn the benevolence of the gods. Prayers often state a claim which the suppliant had on the god's goodwill, as, for instance, Mopsus prays to Apollo (Ovid, Metamorphoses VIII, 350), 'Phoebus, if I have worshipped you and still do worship you, grant my request' or as Nisus invokes the aid of Diana in Aeneid IX, 406ff., by reminding her of the gifts which his father had laid on her altars and the additional dedications which he had himself made in her temple. The claim is usually not the moral worth of the suppliant but his devotion to the god, his pietas.

Ogilvie goes on to distguish between piety as dutiful devotion and the more modern (and not Roman at all) sense of piety as doing good things. The Roman version had nothing to do with good moral conduct, he says.

Then he discusses sacrifice as the most common way of influencing the gods. It was approached in two different ways -- the first being a request followed by a promise of a sacrifice (and he does specifically say: The sacrifice is made as a free-will offering without any attempt to blackmail the god into acceding to the prayer. There is no suggestion of a threat, 'you had better listen to me because I am giving you these presents') . But then he describes the second way.

They vowed or promised that, if a god performed a certain request, then they for their part would make an offering in return. The vow was a contractual relationship and the sacrifice ceased to be a free-will offering and became instead the fulfilment of a covenant.

He says the gods were not treated as puppets and "the predominant note is still one of humility and gratitude," but still.

In making a private vow, the Roman would write his request and the promised offering on a wax tablet which he would tie to the knee of a statue of the god concerned (Apuleius, Apology 54; Juvenal, Satires X, 55). At this stage he was said to be 'on trial for his vow' (voti reus). If the god did not answer the prayer, nothing more need be done and the whole business was forgotten; if the prayer was answered, then he paid his vow and set up a little memento of the happy outcome: he was then said to be 'condemned of his vow' (voti damnatus). Over and over again we meet inscriptions which contain simply the name of a god, the name of a person and the letters v.s.l.m. (votum solvit libes merito) -- 'so-and-so willingly paid his vow as was due to such-and-such a god.

There follows a wonderful chapter on the details of the sacrifices.
 
  
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