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The Brave & The Bold

 
  

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Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
18:57 / 24.04.07
I read the first three issues of the Perez/Waid revival of The Brave & The Bold in one clean, popcorny sitting while alien blew people up and old Legion characters and situations were name-checked.

It's a little weird to read it with a greater sense of continuity, given the Bob Haney "Haneyverse" with its rather parallel universe feel. It's fun, it's reasonably fresh while also bringing out the entertaining bits of the Old Way, and I absolutely love that Batman is no longer the central point around which all characters pivot; we've got a Supergirl/Lobo issue coming up and I'm hoping Waid really sticks it out with fabulously random character combinations (Kamandi & Anthro! OMAC & Shining Knight!). It's certainly got its awkward moments - Green Lantern is overly fond of the word "quarry," and I'm still uncertain how I feel about this version of Supergirl...

Who else is reading this? What team-ups do you want to see?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
19:08 / 24.04.07
Yeah, it’s good fun in an old fashioned, compressed, fairly clean kind of a way. Definitely enjoying the portrayals of all the characters involved so far, and it’s nice to see exactly what Waid intended when he talked about portraying Batman as ‘not a dick’. Green Lantern is good fun as well – issue two made me really wish Waid and Perez could be the team on Hal’s book. Reminds me of the old marvel team up book back in the eighties, in which Spiderman would be teamed up with a random character every month, whilst still carrying on an ongoing plot, and not jsut in the format. I’d recommend this very highly to anyone who misses old school superhero comic books.

As to who I’d like to see I’m quite happy for Waid to play with whoever he feels like, but I would really like to see him use Bart Allen at some point, seeing as he created the character and made him fun, and reading about him in his own book at the moment kinda makes me want to stick nails in my eyes. Maybe Bart Allen and Shilo Norman. Somehow I just kinda think they’d go well together.
 
 
This Sunday
19:09 / 24.04.07
I suppose Ambush Bug and Shade is probably never likely to manifest. So: Martian Manhunter and Black Canary. Dunno why, precisely, I think I just like picturing them standing together. Didn't 'JLA: Year One' have a newspaper clipping about the Brave and the Bald? You could do a bit about them both being essentially kinda nebbishy forcing themselves to be extroverts.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:48 / 24.04.07
It is a fun series; the portrayal of Supergirl as 'gosh golly gee' crushing on Hal Jordan was a bit odd.

Perez' art looks great as usual, but there have been a few bits here and there where it almost looks like Perez is trying to cram TOO much into each page/panel. And I know that super-dense/tons of characters and visual information in his art is Perez' signature style; I just mean that in his recent years of comics art, some of B&B is the first time I've thought 'ok, that looks crowded/unclear.'

In the past, especially the recent past, his composition always flowed pretty beautifully to me, despite the density of the linework. But this 'too crowded' Perez thing I've perceived has only happened once in a blue moon on this series.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:51 / 24.04.07
somewhat related, I would love to see DC re-issue the paperback of THE BRAVE & THE BOLD (I think it's been out of print for a few years now; they did issue a paperback shortly after the series came out, about 7 years ago), which featured a 6-issue miniseries all about the friendship between Barry & Hal. (I think the original working title was just 'Barry & Hal.') It was a really terrific series, with a beautiful ending, illustrated by Waid's frequent collaborator Barry Kitson.
 
 
This Sunday
19:59 / 24.04.07
That was just three issues, wasn't it? Great mini, though. I mean it's got them at a party, and camping, and it's cutely slashtastic in its way.

Waid's right, though, in that you can only make Barry interesting for about a handful of issues at a time anymore. He's a god inna box way more than he is an interesting protagonist. But one helluva scientist!
 
 
Spaniel
20:04 / 24.04.07
Really loving this book, although, yeah, that Supergirl business isn't very cool. At all.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
03:32 / 25.04.07
Not to defend the Supergirl thing, because it is very icky, but I think Waid is just following how she's been written so far. But again not defending it, because sometimes if a characer trait is stupid and icky the writer should write a character out of character.
 
 
This Sunday
03:38 / 25.04.07
How's that then? I'm not up on this series past the first issue, so, please, spoil away. How's Supergirl icky, at the moment? The new/current Supergirl. Is she, instead of super-prude, now cocking her hips a lot and spouting first-five-minutes-of-porno-scene dialogue? Is she sleeping with a transgendered horse again? Is she voting for the wrong candidates? Did she steal GL's spare tights while he was distracted and kiss them in a dark room?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:40 / 25.04.07
As much as the Supergirl stuff is icky, at least it's playing into Hal's weird Arisia related baggage which GEOFF!JOHNS! is trying to mind-wipe out of our memories. Not that I particularly liked where the original Arisia character arc went, I did like the character for being a very different kind of Green Lantern (one that, sadly, would have fit in with the Teen Titans). But definitely a stumbling block for characterization -- the speech Hal gives about why it's not a good thing for them to do anything having to do with Superman kicking his ass was incredibly awkward and strange, although part of me thinks its in character because Hal is such a misogynstic boor and always has been.

But, as said, part of the Supergirl Problem is that nobody seems to really be writing her coherently at the moment -- with the exception of Waid, actually, and this makes me sad because her Legion portrayal as a apathetic solipsist is about a hundred times more interesting the Twenty-First Century depictions, stupid costume or no. I'd like to think that while She-Hulk is a very good example of a "female counterpart" character who grew beyond those initial limitations into a fully formed leading character of her own, Supergirl hasn't quite managed to do that; at least, this latest iteration. But I think I prefer Stargirl anyway.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:45 / 25.04.07
Daytrip -- among Hal's reasons for not doing anything with Kara, he includes the fact that she's in the blue and red, Superman Family, and he would get his ass kicked. He encouraged her to explore something beyond that (in a really awkwardly written speech that seemed like a roundabout and character-level misogynistic way to push toward Kara being her own character) -- and her reaction? Go "undercover" is a little girl's pink dress and pigtails. I'm not exactly sure how I feel about the scene because it's hardly the crackiest thing to ever happen in a super-comic (Hello! Jimmy Olsen in drag making out with a monkey!) but it definitely flashed some warning lights.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
04:07 / 25.04.07
I haven't read all that much Supergirl myself, but as I understand it she's been depicted as crushing as adult heros quite frequently. Nightwing was the last one I noticed, but his being far closer to Supergirls age than Hal's made that less icky for me. I suppose it's actually not that unusual for a seventeen year old girl or boy who spends a lot of time around really damn impressive older people to spend a bit of time crushing on them. So perhaps it's more that it's only Supergirl and not the other (male) younger heros whoe written like this thats the problem.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
04:25 / 25.04.07
Well, remembering what Kon-El Superboy was like...particularly his first relationship with the much older Tana Moon...maybe it's just a particular quirk of the Superman Family?
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
06:03 / 25.04.07
Hmmm, I never really read Superboy's book. Mainly I think because the character was so aesthetically horrendeous around the time of his introduction.

Oh and with regards to Hal, I thought the whole pederasty thing was possibly the most interesting thing anyone ever tried to do with the character. It was not a good thing to be sure, but it was at least trying to be interesting. And whilst definitly not being good it was fairly human and believable in some ways. Hal after all was basically a middle aged thrill seeker, who'd given up his adventurous ways for the love of his life only to have said love dump him almost immediately - his suddenly jumping into bed with the kid he worked with who'd had a crush on him for years, and who was lately starting to look awfully grown up actually makes a lot of sense for that sort of guy. Certainly not a good thing to be sure, but at least the writer was trying to do something interesting with the character for once.
 
 
John Octave
18:07 / 25.04.07
After I read #2, I was also worried about what Waid's intent was for that scene (has he been interviewed recently or anything?) Is the subtitle of the issue Man, Hot 17-Year-Olds Are Really Tempting, Aren't They? or is it That's Hal Jordan For You, Folks! ?

Here's hoping Waid was aiming for the latter. Any other superhero would've sat her down on that alien planet and talked to her about maturity and how adult relationships work; only Hal Jordan would throw up his hands and say "Look, if you were Hourman's underage cousin, well, I mean, I'm pretty sure I could take him in a fight, but Superman..."

I'm really enjoying this comic. Tons of fun, with that "anything can happen" atmosphere I crave more of in modern comics. Also some great cliffhangers. Loved that last page of issue #3, mostly because of how calmly Batman seems to be reacting to it. "Oookay, let's...let's think this through...."
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
18:35 / 25.04.07
Actually the more I think about it, the more I think the Waid meant to make Hal a bit of a slimy bastard. And that part is just fine with me. tTe way Supergirl written was still a bit ick, but as I say I find Jordan a much more interesting character to read about when he's blatantly a slimy womanising shit than when he's Mr Flawless Hero. It's one of his few interesting character traits. I suppose that interpretation works better on this kind of book - I guess it would be deeply problematic in a solo book, or at least in a solo superhero book
 
 
John Octave
19:31 / 25.04.07
I'll agree, big flaws like that play better in ensemble pieces. I suppose that's why we had obsessive psychodick Batman for so many years; he could play off of the more idealistic and trusting JLAers for drama's sake, but it leaves you with a thoroughly unlikeable lead character. Waid's Batman, on the other hand, is surprisingly patient with Blue Beetle; Batman is almost always more interesting in warmer moments like that.

You know, adding to the "Hal's a bastard" pile... is it just me or is Hal's "rejection" of Supergirl somewhat disproportionate to her "advances"? Supergirl's flirting is pretty tame and playful, but Hal leaps to the conclusion almost immediately that "*Choke* She wants to have sex and babies with me!" It seems like what's going on Hal's head is a lot seedier than what's going on in Kara's.
 
 
This Sunday
19:45 / 25.04.07
That's 'cause Hal's a man. With a jacket. That he wears like his daddy. And fearless, so he doesn't have to, y'know, beat around the bush with this crushing and flirty business. Straight to the babies for Hal. With a jacket.

I really wish my copy of that Hal/Barry mini wasn't miles and miles away from me right now.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:48 / 25.04.07
It really drives home how limiting the basic requirements to be a Green Lantern -- bravery (a slightly altered version of fearlessness) and honesty leave a lot of room for seedy thought processes like old bastard Hal.
 
 
The Falcon
22:18 / 25.04.07
I'm, as predictably per (though he was wrong about text adventure Batman) kinda into Jog's take on the whole 'controversial' interaction between old GL and young SG.

He's right - it is so old-fashioned, or perhaps rather, anachronistic, without immanentizing any specific era: I don't especially recall eighties books being like this - my first ever superhero comic was an utterly overwrought Wolfman/Perez Titans ish and then there's the whole Dark Phoenix thing. I think Haney, of whom I only know second-hand, sounds a good call, Papers.

Again, I must confess - if only to upset Cameron - that I been using the old Sam Torrance for these too; so impressed was I with the first couple, especially after expecting a real beard'n'spex chafer, I'd intended on picking up #1-3 when the latter came out, but I thought it looked rub in the shop, too. Something about Hawaiian-shirted bondage-fiend Perez' art juxtaposed with modern, probably computer game, design did not sit well at all. So I'll prolly get trades, I think; it's worth it for the gambling planet alone, really. Rarely have I felt so immersed in such a bustling, alien environ as was depicted there. The gladiator fight, time holes and so forth are all staples, but it's the rapidity at which they're being fired out, the ease with which secondary characters (new Beetle, e.g.) are rotated and pretty compellingly cast into the ongoing drama... I've only really read the first few Legion issues, couple FFs, JLA: Year One, both Kingdom (Come) books, but really this, ultimately, seems to be the point of Mark Waid - has he ever done anything remotely as good?
 
 
Spaniel
07:01 / 26.04.07
I don't think so.

the ease with which secondary characters (new Beetle, e.g.) are rotated and pretty compellingly cast into the ongoing drama...

Indeed.
 
 
Shiny: Well Over Thirty
14:29 / 26.04.07
Well I kinda think the first couple of years of Waid's Flash run were still the best stuff Waid's ever done. But this comes in a close second easily. And the book definitely does play to Waid's strength as a living respository of every drop of information about everything that's ever happened to every DC character ever.
 
 
Panic
16:54 / 26.04.07
To continue from first post - fabulously random character combinations

The Creeper and The Haunted Tank!

Man-Bat and Detective Chimp!

Ambush Bug and Wild Dog!

Jonah Hex and Kamandi!

Robin and Ystine!


Do it, Waid.

Do it.
 
 
The Falcon
16:59 / 26.04.07
Well, I think it'll never quite be like that; the next two are Supergirl/Lobo and Batman/Legion of Superheroes (ridiculoid, that, in an amazingly good way) so it seems you'll always get one marquee character pimping, effectively, the other. Although Lobo doesn't have a comic on sale atm. But there are some trades I guess.
 
 
The Falcon
17:10 / 26.04.07
However absurdly keen I might be for a Heckler/Scarab, in the end few others would purchase. 'Mazing Man/Slam Bradley. Etc.

Question, anyway: is that Lord of Time there the same one as Epoch (of same title) from the c.97-98 JLA/WildCATS Morrison special?
 
 
Aertho
17:14 / 26.04.07
Orion the Dog of War and the Bulleteer.
 
 
Aertho
17:22 / 26.04.07
Black Canary and John Constantine.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
17:22 / 26.04.07
Lord of Time's the Silver Age character, I believe he was seen in Animal Man at one point -- dunno about no Epoch.

I'd like to see anything with Dame Ystina. Really.

This new B&B reminds me very much of the old Perez-drawn JLoA from the Eighties, and seems (oddly) like a more faithful revival to that style of adventure than Meltzer's run. Actually, above all, this comic seems like it's the mainline DCU equivalent of Justice League Unlimited; rotating cast of character depending on the mission, inspired plotlines, divergent pairings...combining the two feelings (JLU & JLoA) seems like a winning combination in this combination of combinations.
 
 
Aertho
17:23 / 26.04.07
Nightwing and Wonder Woman.
 
 
The Falcon
17:31 / 26.04.07
Seems to be the same chap; was a little confused by costume and escape from recursive time-loop.
 
 
Spaniel
17:36 / 26.04.07
Old skool Mr Terrific and new Skool Mr Terrific
 
 
Panic
18:55 / 26.04.07
Frankenstein and Etrigan!

Bibbo Bibbowski, Woozy Winks and Doiby Dickles!

Enemy Ace and Blackhawk in a special Ennis-penned MANLY! AIR! COMBAT! issue!

Mogo & the Legion of Substitute Heroes vs Solaris, the Tyrant Sun!


I should just stop now. I'm getting my hopes up.
 
 
This Sunday
19:04 / 26.04.07
Bibbo Bibbowski, Woozy Winks and Doiby Dickles!

There's a short in some nineties or late-eighties book with Bibbo and Doiby (must be nineties to have Bibbo, yes?) written by that guy who used to do Green Lantern Quarterly and polish on the Eng-Language 'Ranma 1/2' comic.
 
 
Benny the Ball
19:29 / 26.04.07
Can we have a little more about why people would like to see these team ups, rather than just lists? Why do you think they'd work in one off stories? What's the appeal of that combination?
 
 
The Falcon
19:46 / 26.04.07
In another thread, preferably. I'm not saying it won't be fun, but it has run it's course here, plz, thx.
 
  

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