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AA and Magick

  
 
calgodot
01:16 / 22.04.07
I am doing some research regarding Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and “non-traditional” religious beliefs. In particular I am curious about how practitioners or members of non-traditional systems discover and maintain compatibility between their preferred belief system(s) and the program and philosophies of AA.

I am especially interested in the relationship between:
Magick and AA
Thelema and AA
Wicca and AA

I would like to engage in dialog (via email or this forum) with those who are current or former members of AA and who are also practitioners or members of “non-traditional” systems such as Chaos Magick, Discordianism, Druidism, Golden Dawn, Paganism, Satanism, Setianism, Thelema, Wicca, or other non-traditional systems, particularly those associated with magic, witchcraft, or the occult.

(Please note also than I am not interested in traditional theistic, atheistic or agnostic approaches to AA, as those have been sufficiently covered elsewhere.)

Some of the questions for which I am seeking answers:

*What name or other designation do you give to your “higher power?”

*Explain your concept of “higher power.”

*Have you incorporated ritual practices into your AA program? If so, would you provide examples?

*If your preferred system is a “left-hand path” system, do you feel its principles conflict with the philosophy or practices of AA? If so, how do you resolve such conflicts?

It is expected that other questions and issues will arise as a result of this dialog.

(Note: If you don't wish to "out" yourself on this forum, please feel free to email me. I will of course respect the privacy and anonymity of anyone who contacts me off-forum.)
 
 
This Sunday
03:05 / 22.04.07
Now, to be fair, I've never been in the AA program. I have, however, attended AA events and gatherings here and there to accompany people who didn't want to go by themselves, et cet. And, really, I have to ask if no one else finds them to be the most fascistic, self-absorbed, pompous religious experience short of picking up torches and burning down the house on the end of town.

Every experience I've had with AA has put a sour taste all through me, and filled me with revilement rarely felt outside of one or two nasty Mormon incidents and watching a Midwestern middle-aged Baptist end'o'the'worlder have a nervous breakdown. It's all submit, admit you're worthless and helpless, and find strength in our parental god-arms. The whole 'understand, don't question' vibe is just insulting and belittling.

But I understand it may've helped one or two people to some end. Haven't seen anyone control their drinking because of AA, or been happy in ways that don't involve actively belittling somebody else, but then, that's kinda what organized religion's often for, innit? That swell of group-supported superiority, so long as you submit to the superiority of the group parent-figures?

I'd love some good Erisian AA stories, but clearly for different reasons.

(For those who think I'm being horribly rude, I am. Horribly condescending? To the program, but hopefully not to anyone involved in the program, as I think everybody can handle themselves better than AA can restrain or retrain.)
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:03 / 22.04.07
Hello, i was in rehab from feb-march 2000, i practice magick but don't particularly belong to any tradition, it was not 12 step, for a specific reason, no higher power, read bowing my head to a higher authority. Probably why alot of people find the more scientific approach more useful. A detailed understanding of what alcoholism does to the human body i found enough to help me stop at the time, that and an understanding of the importance of myself with regard to my own well being.

The problem from my view point with 12 steps is the very notion of a higher power or greater good, removes the focus away from the person and the reasons they maybe drinking for, its the person and there relationships to drink that is of the utmost import. Not any higher power. There again if somebody can successfully buy into that and use it as a tool to stop then perhaps its useful as a tool.

I think the 2 different approaches are valuable in a sense that perhaps the 12 steps works on early childhood conditioning relating to a religous education and the latter works from a more secular conditional approach, it really depends in which direction somebody is geared in. What level of conditioning contains the strongest imprint to be used as an appropriate tool to undo behaviour.

The idea of a higher power can be a stumbling block to begin with if at the time of seeking treatment that is the furthest thing from your mind and your own health and well being is what you need to consider.
 
 
Z. deScathach
17:57 / 23.04.07
I was in AA for many years and left,(I've been out for years now), and while I'm very appreciative that it helped me to stop drinking, (which trust me, was a real bear), I'm not so sure that it was worth the cost. It caused a sense of fatalism and helplessness in me that still effects my inner life somewhat to this day. I feel that it set me back magickally a TON, and in truth, I didn't truly start to get better internally until I left.

I found attitudes toward the practice of magick in AA to border on the hysterical. I've had people scream in my face, shake their heads like I was deluded, and even had half a group walk out when the head of said group suggested that because we had a magick practitioner in the group that perhaps we should close with an atheistic rendition of the serenty prayer rather than the lord's prayer.

I think that recent studies showing the effectiveness of AA in long term sobriety seriously call the effectiveness of the program into question as well.

One thing that exposure to AA did leave me with that was positive was a sense that alcohol abuse necessitates a type of innner transformation. I still view my magickal practice as essential to the inner power and health necessary to not return to that previous condition.

One thing that needs to be said is that my initial exposure to AA was not that toxic. Seems that when I first got sober, I landed in the middle of a bunch of mystics, who actually got me questing after magick. When I left that area, however, I NEVER found another group remotely like them, and realized that in AA terms, what I had come across was an abberation. That was deeply saddening at the time, but eventually I had to face the facts.
 
 
Raw Norton
06:38 / 04.05.07
Coming at this from a slightly different angle, I've been in Narcotics Anonymous (essentially the same steps) for over seven years, and continue to be fairly active in that program but have only a limited understanding of--and no real experience with--magick, although my last drug experience involved Vol. 3 of The Invisibles, TS Eliot's "The Wasteland" and a large part of a vial of LSD (part of my annual "LSD Rites of Spring).

I realize that the experiences of agnostics and atheists in recovery is a well-worn topic, and so my use personal experience is of little relevance, as I've been agnostic throughout most of recovery. However, if it's not stretching your topic too much, before getting clean I had something of a shamanistic spirituality, and I've often wondered what spiritual tone you would get out of a "Hallucinogenics Anonymous." Specifically, most recovery programs are premised on the notion that addicts use substances to produce an emotional change, mostly of a recreational sort. It seems to me, though, that a lot of people who abuse hallucinogens (and I stress: I don't confuse use with abuse) do so out of a (possibly misguided) scheme for achieving communion with the divine through chemicals. I've always been curious, then, what kind of Higher Powers one would see in a fellowship where everyone started from that kind of spirituality.

Anyway, if I could speculate as to how practitioners of magick might experience recovery, I'd imagine that the fundamental hurdle would be the "powerlessness" component of the first step. If you look beyond the wording of the steps, most people in recovery will speak of being "powerless" over quite a bit more than just alcohol, addiction, etc. You usu. hear people speak of being powerless over everything external to themselves, which sounds defeatist at first, but is really more of an admonition that one's own peace and serenity is a direct function of one's acceptance of things as they are. Insofar as I understand magick to imply unconventional relationships between cause and effect (and I can't stress how limited my exposure to magick really is), I would think that a magickal mindset would make "powerlessness" a bitter pill to swallow. Under a magickal worldview, it would seem that one's interior life exerts some degree of influence over the world at large, and recovery's greater themes of powerlessness and surrender become difficult. Obviously there are folks in recovery with spirituality rooted in magick, but I would imagine this would have posed an initial dilemma for them.
 
 
lucifer13
03:01 / 03.01.13
Hi, 25 years ago a read a book on witchcraft by Gavin and yevon frost, I stopped using meth and built a great life, recently I have been in contact with aa and attended meeting . My good life started including way too many drinks, I'm back to actively practicing magic, journaling, meditating, hoping, believing and all the other tenets found in both aa and Luciferian teachings, rationally selfish and selfish are not the same thing. That is the only point an occultist needs to remember, a strong "self" benefits all, selfishness that goes unchecked is not selfishness but stupidity that hurts all. Hanging on a cross stopped Chrst from continuing to teach, rational selfishness would have kept him alive to benefit more people and maybe we would not have to rely on Constintine to understand the magic in Jesus's miracles . I believe in Lucifer as an archetype , I believe in learning . Aa will teach you to learn about yourself, worth looking at no matter what "archetype" of spirit you respect.
 
 
jgbell
06:24 / 04.01.13
You know, that's totally not the A∴A∴ I thought you meant at first. But, there are some old articles on the topic of Pagans in Recovery, which may be of interest.

Staying Sober and Pagan by Wulfgar Gregarsson offers the following:

"AA was begun on the premise that after years of substance abuse we become powerless over our addictions. With that, we find ourselves godless, but then in AA and NA seek to find a "God of our understanding." This may be difficult, to say the least. For many, this "God" is the wretched, earth-flooding, sky-talking, vengeful, guilt- giving god of their parents. (Not someone I would want to rely on.) For others, "God" is an abstract concept, with no foundation in reality.

For a pagan, this call to find a "God of their understanding" can be a welcome and liberating experience — until we go to a meeting. Some in AA or NA still equate "God" with the god of the Bible. To a pagan of experience, this "God" may reek of the god of Abraham. Many times, I have sat in a meeting and had to listen to tales of someone's personal experience of finding "God" and the redemption that followed. It can often make it a difficult time for us to be "out" of the broom closet, when new in the program.

Pagans may not find it easy to take when the word "He" is used to describe this "God," especially when we read in the steps where we seek awareness of "His" will for us. That's difficult for many to swallow and most certainly for a pagan. Many nonpagans in AA and NA, like most of the rest of society, think our pantheistic religion a crock and a sham. They do not understand that we have and hold a very strong and personal relationship with nature, with our gods and with our clergy.

When getting to know others in the program, it's a good idea to let only those who sincerely reach out to help you know of your religious convictions and spiritual path. Remember that people in the program have their own value systems and are often ignorant and intolerant of that which they consider non-Christian."

You may also be interested in Isaac Bonewits' Pagans in Recovery.
 
  
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