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Rock and Rap

 
  

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miss wonderstarr
17:06 / 16.04.07
On

this

Switchboard thread, many ravishing idperfections posted:

But there are a great many white people who figure out that blaming rap for what appears in their "common sense" view of the world as a proliferation of black perpetrated violence, and not blaming (for instance) rock music for a proliferation of white-perpetrated rape, is racist. For many of these white people, it's not their job to sort out their racist beliefs and try to change them, it's just part of being human.


I keep turning this over in my head. It's a welcome counterpoint to the familiar argument about rap music being the cause of various social ills such as delinquency, street violence, sexism on the part of young men, a drive for instant consumer gain rather than education and so on.

And I know it's never going to be as simple as a cause and effect, in either case, but I can think immediately, from my relatively limited knowledge of the genre, of rap and grime lyrics that seem to boast about possessions, treat women as contemptible sexual objects and glory in violence. (I entirely accept the idea that these lyrics, within rap, can be taken as a fantasy within the track ~ a performance and a persona.)

On the other hand, I can't really think of any rock lyrics that seem to endorse or encourage rape or sexual assault.

This isn't meant to challenge id's statement, at all: the simplest explanation is just that I can't remember many rock lyrics. Perhaps definitions would have to be addressed, because I'm not entirely sure what would be classed as rock. (I'd guess, the kind of music Jack Black celebrates and performs ~ but I don't know if rock includes metal and its subdivisions, for instance).

So I'd just like to ask for any suggestions and examples. Again, I don't want this to seem as if I'm asking for it to be proved. It's just an interesting idea to me that I can't fill out in my mind, because apparently my knowledge of rock is less extensive than my knowledge of rap (which is pretty limited too... unlike my knowledge of POP).

Unless id's point was simply that to suggest either musical genre can prompt any kind of behaviour is ludicrous ~ but that we hear the criticism levelled frequently at rap, and never at rock?
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
18:01 / 16.04.07
Well, there're always gems such as 'On Your Knees' by Great White:

I can take you up, I can tear you down
I'm a heat wave comin' at you
Takin' what I please, fallin' on your knees
You need me, yes you do.
From the moment I take over
You're gonna call me back for more
Down on your knees

Knockin' down your door, pull you to the floor
'Cause you need it, so bad
Takin' what I choose, never gonna lose
I love to drive the young girls wild
Gonna drive my love inside you
Gonna nail your ass to the floor
Down on your knees

Here I come now baby, kickin' down your door
Here I come now baby, pull you to the floor
Takin' what I choose girl, I'm never gonna lose
I love to drive the young girls wild
Drivin' my love inside of you
Down on your knees


Quite delightful, I think you'll agree. (Aside to Moderators: If anybody is unhappy about having written content like the above in this thread I'll be more than happy to have it removed, and/or perhaps link to the site where these lyrics can be found - whatever's considered appropriate. I don't often post in Music, so would be grateful for any guidance on this point.)

Not to be defensive, but I should make it clear that I've never actually heard this song - the lyrics were in my mind since they're cited in the book Crosstown Traffic: Jimi Hendrix and post-war pop by Charles Shaar Murray as an example of crassly misogynistic (white) cock rock. Murray places it in the context of the gradual expropriation of rhythm & blues by white musicians, the sexual language of which he views as 'warm and solicitous' when used by the original artists such as Muddy Waters, in contrast with the 'thermonuclear gang rape' of later bands like Led Zeppelin.

Maybe the discussion we're trying to have here could be framed in terms like these to begin with. I'm aware, to be clear, that a lot of people here would object to traditionally understood narratives of crass white musicians 'stealing' from 'authentic' black performers, and I don't anticipate putting it in such terms without any justifiable objections. I was hoping to find an extreme example of the kind of lyrical content to which miss wonderstarr's alluding, and maybe give us a starting point to build on.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:22 / 16.04.07
Thanks, that's an example I'd never heard, and a lot of context pointing towards the many complexities of this discussion.

Not that this is a lyrical battle where one of us spits rock and the other comes back with rap! but here's one of the examples I was thinking of in my first post.

Complicated again by the fact that these are from the UK grime genre, which is distinct from US hip-hop ~ my understanding is that you'd still call it rap, but... experts may disagree.

The irony is here, again, that I actually like this track. It's rampant with violent threats, riddled with homophobia, but it's got a raw energy I can't help but get off on... despite myself. Maybe I'm entering guiltily into some sense of persona and fantasy, listening to it (imagining I'm all street and urban badass). I find the track pretty menacing, and its lyrical content occasionally horrible and ugly, but the overall effect is really vibrant and powerful. Maybe Lethal B and his crew are also putting on personae, I don't know.




[NAPPA]
I'lllll....crack your skull
Leave you fu***d up in a wheelchair
If you try to clash this evil bre
And again
I'lllll....crack your skull
Leave you fu***d up in a wheelchair
If you try to clash this evil bre

[JAMAKABI]
Rude boy fi just seckle
Don't let Jamakabi ga draw fi da metal
Not da gun, me draw for da belt buckle
I make a bigger boy feel so likkle
Just swing my belt round like a nun chuckle
Bus you head and make your blood start trickle
One more lick fi make da p***y hole topple
Greet da bre with a fistful of knuckle

[NEEKO]
Killa killa real real
Ni**as know the deal deal
Don't care how you feel
I will be cockin back my steel straight
Bullets bullets run run
Fire fire bun
If you don't like killa killa
Ni**a you can suck your mom

[FLOW DAN]
Fi start bun a MC
Bun fire pon a batty boy MC
Pick up my hour disrespect me
Man I go step in a him face with my new Nikey's
16 bar 16 skar 16 noog shot in a you raas
Man a toppa toppa and lickle spar raas
Better hide, me a bun them boy
Bun grass

[OZZIE B]
Me have a thing called desert eagle
Make me think evil
And want fi kill people
Yo second gun is a Tec, nice
You cut a lie me a gone take you life fool
You wanna come and play your tool
That's not the right tool
That's just any tool
Alright prick I'll knock you on the beat
I'm gon' keep it clean
You don't really want to beef

[FORCER]
Anyway I told you already we nah play
Spray these swag MC's right away
He's chatting shit about he's got an AK
Armshouse comes down the boy runs away
It's 2 double 04 ni**as don't play
Streets are mine if you force I will slay
You sound so gay, I'm gonna call you fake
Don't care about your crew bun them anyday

[DEMON]
You don't wanna bring Armshouse
I'll bring Armshouse to your mums house
You don't wanna bring no beef
Bring some beef and loose some teeth
And again
You don't wanna bring Armshouse
I'll bring Armshouse to your mums house
You don't wanna bring no beef
Bring some beef and loose some teeth

[HOTSHOT]
You got a gun troll shoot it
You'll say it bounce so shoot it
What a waitin for you yute, shoot it
No one needs to show you how to hold a gun
Shoot it shoot it shoot it
You nah shoot it if you nah true to it
Yo muff you better mute it
If you nah mute it, da glove come off ga mute it
Put it in your mouth like a tooth pick
It's too late no shoot it
2-2 shoot it
8 mill shoot it
9 mill shoot it
Mark 10 shoot it
Mark 11 shoot it
12 gauge shoot it
Inch 12 a shoot it
Revelton shoot it
44 shoot it
45 shoot it
Spoil min shoot it
Tommy Gun shoot it
Lyman shoot it
Kalashnikoff shoot it
AK shoot it
Gatlin shoot it

[LETHAL B]
POW POW
Oooow
It's Lethal da Bizzle Records
Da Bizzle
Yeah
2004
Yeah
East London's finest
Yeaahh
Yeah
You need to know

 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:26 / 16.04.07
Oh sorry it's "Forward Riddim", also released as "Pow" I think.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:29 / 16.04.07
While I'm here, just a couple more thoughts. I suggested above that I enjoy the energy and bad-ass styling of this track even though aspects of it... "repulse" probably isn't too strong a word. And that I kind of enjoy the hard, street-tough tone of it ~ the don't mess attitude.

I think it's pretty possible that, despite significant differences in social upbringing and environment between me and Lethal Bizzle, the track is also entering into a pleasurable fantasy. The idea of making a big man seem little, swinging your belt round like a ninja rice flail, is the kind of thing schoolkids come up with. I don't doubt it's possible that young Black working-class men growing up in East London could have seen and handled guns, but... Desert Eagles? Does anyone see Desert Eagles outside Max Payne A Lyman is, as I understand it, a 19th century rifle. A Tommy Gun is a 1930s gangster standby. A Gatling gun, as I remember, derives from the Old West.

So, a lot of this lyric, though some of it is pretty ugly (lazy, rather than malicious?) homophobia that does map onto the real world of 2004 East London, seems to be pure dressing-up games, playing the historical hard man... not all that different, perhaps, from Adam Ant acting the highwayman and pirate.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
Fly.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
Boy.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
Where.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
Are.
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
You?
 
 
Seth
23:15 / 16.04.07
But I suspect you've formulated this one enough times.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:21 / 16.04.07
I have to say that this thread, especially the title, makes me feel a little head-in-hands. I know you mean well, miss wonderstarr. But in the first place I think you're misunderstanding what id was saying - he didn't specifically mention lyrics. I mean, in some ways this is the whole point of why hip hop gets the blame in ways that forms of rock music don't (as often) - because it's so lyric-focussed, and a lyric that says "I do this" or "this happened" are easy to lazily interpret as "encouraging" behaviours. Lyrics appear to be easy to read (although in spite of that a remarkable number of people who trot out the "blame rap" argument aren't very good at coming up with lyrics that illustrate their points), in a way that other aspects of a music or a culture are not. I've always thought it was funny that those stickers said "explicit lyrics" - well yes, exactly, explicit not implicit, so that one can easily point to, say, sexist content, without having to do the work necessary to point to other forms of sexism in music.

Secondly, the title of this thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not quite flippant, but I do think it is slightly clumsy and presents the issues in a misleadingly simplistic way.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:25 / 16.04.07
Lock and delete thread?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
23:31 / 16.04.07
Sorry, Flyboy. To be honest, though, I learn from a lot of your responses. I find what you post really valuable most of the time, even if it's challenging or criticising things I've said or believe. So I'd be glad if we could keep talking about this, instead of closing it down. I don't care if I'm "wrong" to any degree ~ I'm happy with that, I feel that's what it's often about.

I mean, in some ways this is the whole point of why hip hop gets the blame in ways that forms of rock music don't (as often) - because it's so lyric-focussed, and a lyric that says "I do this" or "this happened" are easy to lazily interpret as "encouraging" behaviours.

True, though you're aware I hope that I wasn't proposing that either genre of music encourages a certain kind of behaviour. My main point really was, in common perhaps with what you're saying, that no especially problematic rock lyrics came to mind. Maybe this is, indeed, because rap is more focused on the words (the spoken word) whereas I could have listened to a rock song a dozen times and still not have much clue what it's actually "about", because the focus is more on the lead guitar or whatever.

I also wanted to explore the idea about rock, and rap, engaging with personae and performance, rather than (as you suggest) boasting "I did this" as if there's no distinction between the artist and a character or projection, a stylised version of the artist, within a song.


Secondly, the title of this thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It's not quite flippant, but I do think it is slightly clumsy and presents the issues in a misleadingly simplistic way.


I had that misgiving, too. Fancying a neat title overrode my concern, but that was probably unwise. Of course I'm happy to change it ~ suggestions welcome.

I don't think it's that positive (Seth) for anyone to regard Flyboy as like the policeman who has to come onto this kind of thread and scold or sort it out. Like I said, I value Flyboy's comments. I think he's a man of honour. But I don't want anyone to have to come onto the thread and shut it down, unless it's gone too far and become a hopeless case... which, personally, I don't think this one has.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:32 / 16.04.07
M-1 of dead prez appeared on Fox News’ Your World TV show on April 12 to defend hip-hop in light of Don Imus’ firing. Your World host, Neil Cavuto, pressed M-1 about hip-hop’s use of derogatory remarks such as the term “ho” Imus used in reference to the Rutgers woman basketball team. M-1, however, was quick to defend hip-hop. “With personal responsibility taken at hand here, we’re talking about rappers who are coerced to say things other than what the reality of our community is and Mr. Imus, who obviously has said sentiments that come from his personal beliefs. I think you are comparing apples and oranges here even when you bring the rap community into question.”

Cavuto, however, wasn’t buying M-1’s answer and asked, “A ho is a ho, right? So, if Imus uses the expression and then you use the expression, you’ve both said it.” M-1, who was calm throughout the interview, responded by saying, “I don’t say ho and that’s my point exactly. Even the word ho existed way before 1976 when rap began. Ho is a relationship between the pimp and the pimpee.”

Cavuto proceeded to ask, “And there’s nothing wrong then with rappers saying it, right?” M-1 responded, “Well, of course there’s something wrong with both of those relationships. However, what governs that relationship is the historical relationship of oppression between black people and out white oppressors in this country. And that’s not a racist statement, that’s the reality that we live in.”
 
 
miss wonderstarr
23:32 / 16.04.07
Lock and delete thread?

Are you serious? You think this thread is that pointless and hopeless? I'm only trying to open a discussion in good faith. I feel you're being a little trigger happy, and I'd at least appreciate the chance to talk about the thread's fate ~ it seems you're proposing an agreement between mods, which totally leaves me out of the discussion.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
23:34 / 16.04.07
I'm afraid I have to retire for the nite, but I have to say I'll be pretty unhappy if this thread is locked and deleted in my absence, with no opportunity for discussion from the thread-starter. I don't think that's how things should be done.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
23:38 / 16.04.07
Anyway, I've put in for a title edit.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:40 / 16.04.07
Well, I meant to suggest as concisely as possible that I don't see how any good will come of this thread. I didn't expect that my post would actually get the thread locked and/or deleted.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
23:52 / 16.04.07
rather than (as you suggest) boasting "I did this"

Ah, but I didn't suggest that. I said a lyric that says "I do this" or "this happened". That's not the same as assuming that it's meant to be a boast, and/or taken as literal truth.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:17 / 17.04.07
OK, well obviously I was posting in a rush late last night. I don't know if we can evaluate what "good" will come of this thread, but maybe if one person learns something along the way, there's some point to it ~ which is probably more than can be said for some other threads.

Just to regroup, here are the things I'm currently interested in exploring on this thread, if it goes ahead:

1 why rap is far more frequently identified as endorsing antisocial (and sexist, homophobic) attitudes and behaviour than, for the purposes of this example, rock. One reason is clearly that rap is seen as "black" music, rock as "white", and we are in a society of white privilege with a whole network of attendant consequences. However, I also think it's interesting that, as Flyboy notes, rap foregrounds lyrics and words more than rock. I assumed above that the focus would be just be lyrics, which is perhaps because I'm most interested in words, and this is a linguistic medium so it's harder to discuss other aspects of music.

2 in which case, I'd like to ask ~ again, not as a challenge but because I don't think I'm expert enough to know ~ for some examples of rock, not just lyrics but whatever else makes up the genre (performance, costume, vocals, guitar) that could be seen as endorsing, encouraging problematic attitudes and behaviour. That is, I'm very familiar with this argument being levelled at hip-hop. I've not thought about it in terms of rock, partly for the reasons suggested in 1 above. I'd be interested in examples from people who know more about the genre.

3 I also think the point about performance and persona is interesting. As I understand it, critics of hip-hop/rap as encouraging sexism, homophobia and so on are often assuming that there's no distinction between the speaker and the story ~ that it isn't a "story", with characters, but that there's a direct relationship between what the lyric states and what the artist believes, and how s/he behaves, and in turn how listeners will behave and what they'll believe. I think the last point is most problematic in its assumtion of any simple cause-effect.

But it's true, I can think of obvious examples where I assume Freddie Mercury, Gary Glitter, David Bowie and George Michael are not describing themselves or actual aspects of their lives (or their aims and intentions), and where I assume a distinction between the lyrics and performance, even the stage persona, and the real artists Farrokh Bulsara, Paul Gadd, David Jones and Georgios Panayiotou.

However, I don't think the same is often assumed for Shawn Carter, and that Jay-Z is telling stories as a character, or whether critics explore any distinction between the real person and "Hov", as they would between David Jones, David Bowie and Ziggy Stardust. (Or, even, Marshall Mathers and Eminem and Slim Shady as different people).

OK, it might all just come down to that same issue of living in a basically racist society, and its consequences on art, culture and criticism. But I don't think that means there is nothing else to say ~ in terms of specific examples, case studies and discussion ~ bearing in mind that probable overarching reason for the difference between the ((white) mainstream) attitude towards rap and rock, and their supposed endorsement of certain attitudes.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:59 / 17.04.07
As a brief example.

(And an obvious one). When Bowie sings

But the film is a sadd'ning bore
'Cause I wrote it ten times or more.
It's about to be writ again
As I ask you to focus on
Sailors
Fighting in the dance hall.
Oh man!
Look at those cavemen go.
It's the freakiest show.
Take a look at the lawman
Beating up the wrong guy.


I don't think the general interpretation is that he's genuinely telling the listener to watch a fight, to enjoy fighting as a spectacle or "show". Or that he's boasting about how he wrote a film script over ten times.

However, when Jay-Z states

Can't none of y'all mirror me back
Yeah hearin me rap is like hearin G. Rap in his prime
I'm, young H.O., rap's Grateful Dead
Back to take over the globe, now break bread
I'm in, Boeing jets, Global Express
Out the country but the blueberry still connect
On the low but the yacht got a triple deck
But when you Young, what the fuck you expect? Yep, yep


I think there might be a more general assumption that this is part of hip-hop's (again assumed) endorsing of commercial gain, celebration of showy possessions and the idea that status and worth are achieved through owning things; and its (again assumed) attitude of boasting about one's abilities and skills.

But really, there's nothing more boastful in the second lyric than the first, and the literal "message" in the first, encouraging the listener to pleasurably watch physical violence, is if anything more problematic than the second, which just lists forms of transport and methods of communication.

It may well be primarily because of white mainstream criticism and journalism's prejudice and lazy assumptions that the hip-hop track would be more readily given as an example of a literal boast about Jay's skills and celebration of his success through possessions, whereas the rock/pop song is more readily assumed to be a story told by a character who isn't really David Jones.

But I also wonder if the former is more obviously stylised and science-fictional ~ that Bowie's performance and dress (at the time) encourages a sense of distinction between the song and the real world, and discourages any mapping of the lyrics onto any kind of documentary reality. That Bowie more obviously adopted a persona. Bowie's lyric is perhaps more fantastical ~ whereas a successful hip-hop artist is likely to own a yacht and fly in jets.

But this may be just because of my ignorance and prejudice ~ that I don't know how explicitly Jay-Z is adopting a persona. My response and interpretation above may well be due to my own assumptions.

So there's a quick and dirty case study on the table.
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:37 / 17.04.07
I would guess that everyone here's already up with bell hooks' take on the Rap criticism issue, right?

Just a note to say I've heard it come up in the blogging world recently too: Pam Spaulding writing on feminist blog Pandagon, dNA's piece 'white supremacy outsources its vocabulary', and it's inspired white pro-feminist blogger Hugo Schywzer to take Guns'n'Roses' 'One in a million' off his playlist.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:44 / 17.04.07
Um, the idea that rappers are adopting a persona is actually more common currency as far as I'm aware, since so many of them take on assumed names. Moreover, not only has this been discussed critically, it is actually addressed by the artists themselves more frequently and more explicitly than by rock artists. To pick an extremely obvious example, Eminem has explicitly explored in his lyrics the difference between Marshall Mathers and Slim Shady - Shady is the outrageous drug-addled woman-hating chainsaw-wielding scourge of middle America, Marshall is supposedly the 'real' guy who has an off-stage personal life (although this is disingenuous as this persona is just as deliberately fictionalised), and 'Eminem' is sort of a third persona, the more 'proper' rapper who isn't a monster but isn't just an ordinary guy either.

I know it's bad form to start posts with the word "um", because it's a rhetorical device designed to say "I feel you have gone off down a certain road without considering some fairly basic and easily available information". But that is kind of how I feel, although again, I think your intentions are good. I mean yes, I do agree that rock artists are given more credit/allowance than rap artists, in terms of the idea that they might be playing a role, or not even that - I think there's some middle ground between that kind of self-conscience performance and a face value "this is exactly how things are and how you, listeners, should behave", and I think most artists full stop exist in that middle ground.

(And yes, Eminem is white and there is, I think, a reason why he's such an obvious example, which is that he reflects back in his music a greater willingness to believe that he consciously plays a persona that is demonstrated in the critical reception to him.)
 
 
Spaniel
14:11 / 17.04.07
MW, I think this thread is great. It's opening all sorts of areas I haven't thought about enough
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:39 / 17.04.07
Well, thanks Boboss. I was a bit saddened by the idea that 5-0 Flyboy had to be called in to put this thread down (which again, I don't think serves anyone well) and I'm glad it's taking off in some kind of interesting direciton, as I'd hoped.

Flyboy, I'm glad you can see where I'm trying to come from and where I'm trying to go. I can't quite get your post straight in every way ~ I did cite Eminem as an example, after all, and I think it probably is relevant that he's white in terms of the relative willingness ~ I mean in terms of mainstream journalism, for instance ~ to see him as an artist, maybe like Bowie, who explicitly puts on personae and tells stories from a position he might not actually endorse or believe in. I suspect that though it might have taken a while for people to get their heads round it, it was easier for the mainstream to fit Eminem into a tradition of (white) authorship, playacting and character-building. I haven't seen anyone explore the same ideas around Fifty Cent, for instance. Despite the fact that patently obviously, "Fifty Cent" has as much potential to be a fictionalised persona as "Slim Shady"; I still think Curtis Jackson is held more accountable in terms of giving out a literal message that he personally endorses when he raps under his assumed name. Again, I'm just talking about what I encounter in mainstream journalism. If this has been extensively explored critically, or in more specialist journalism, then fine, I admit ignorance of that, but I'd still suggest that the dominant discourse (again, what I was calling the "white mainstream" discourse, and therefore the most prevalent and powerful) around those two artists is as I describe.

With regard to most rappers' assumed names, sure but I don't know if this is regularly taken to mean ~ again, in the white mainstream press, say ~ that they're adopting a persona distinct from their own views and have the license that's afforded to most white rock stars in terms of putting on a character and telling a story. I am under the impresison that the "I" in most black hip-hop is taken, by the white mainstream, to be plain autobiographical and literal. Whereas there are multiple examples I can think of where a white rock or pop star's first-person lyrics aren't ever assumed to represent what the artist actually does, believes or has done in the past. So I'd suggest actually that despite the obvious convention of assumed names in hip-hop, there's an assumed lack of any space between black rappers and their lyrics.

(Again, I'm tending to talk just about lyrics here, which is probably reductive in terms of both genres.)
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:46 / 17.04.07
Thanks to Saturn's nod also for the hooks article, which I've just read.
 
 
grant
15:08 / 17.04.07
mw say: for some examples of rock, not just lyrics but whatever else makes up the genre (performance, costume, vocals, guitar) that could be seen as endorsing, encouraging problematic attitudes and behaviour

I say: Wikipedia on the Judas Priest trial.

The highlights of the case all showed up in Bill Hicks routines and, subsequently, in the "Arseface" subplot in Preacher.

You can read some of the media coverage here; the media hysteria was so profound, it engendered a notorious Negativland hoax.

Have rappers been brought to trial over the messages in their lyrics? I honestly don't know.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:12 / 17.04.07
I suppose, given the emphasis on authenticity, keeping it real and so on, in a lot of contemporary hip hop, it would be difficult for artists working in the field to talk about playing around with different identities, even if that's what they're actually up to. To a certain extent Eminem's been able to get away with this kind of thing because initially anyway, he wasn't taken that seriously by anyone much except Dr Dre - he was often described as rap's Eric Cartman, for example.

I'm guessing (although I'm really not an expert) that a majority of the rappers around at the moment would still identify with Chuck D's description of hip hop as 'black people's CNN', rather than anything more theatrical. Though I'm not saying this is always the case, or that there haven't been any number of cartooniish figures in hip hop in the past.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:43 / 17.04.07
mw say: for some examples of rock, not just lyrics but whatever else makes up the genre (performance, costume, vocals, guitar) that could be seen as endorsing, encouraging problematic attitudes and behaviour

I say: Wikipedia on the Judas Priest trial.


Also, of course, Marilyn Manson and Columbine.

Have rappers been brought to trial over the messages in their lyrics? I honestly don't know.

Maybe not so specifically? My impression is that hip-hop in general (in, probably, a simplistic, unexamined way) is frequently held up as a cause of delinquency among young people, and even more generally, of an overall moral decline.

As a recent example, Ken Livingstone last week.

The Thatcher years 'helped create a generation of people whose children did not have a moral code', he claimed.

He also said some rap music was behind the current spate of violence and society's moral breakdown.


Chuck D's description of hip hop as 'black people's CNN', rather than anything more theatrical. Though I'm not saying this is always the case, or that there haven't been any number of cartooniish figures in hip hop in the past.

Of course, Chuck D's crew included Flavor Flav, who I've always seen as very cartoonish. (Maybe you can have the news, then cartoons).

Interesting thought that playing around with identity could be seen as a lack of integrity and trustworthiness ~ and that perhaps hip-hop is seen to have some obligation (to represent, to tell truths that the mainstream media don't report) ~ that there's some perceived need for it to be documentary, to serve a social role, whereas rock and pop are allowed to be "art" and play. Perhaps some expectation on the part of hip-hop artists and fans, for the genre to represent an oppressed and marginalised voice and culture, is the flipside of it being assumed as literal and autobiographical by mainstream critics.

For instance, I have the above impression about Public Enemy, that their project was (to some extent at least) to report a kind of documentary truth, and preach or protest from a socially marginalised position. This is despite the fact that, obviously, they take on assumed names and to an extent, dress in costumes.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:47 / 17.04.07
Perhaps some expectation on the part of hip-hop artists and fans, for the genre to represent an oppressed and marginalised voice and culture, is the flipside of it being assumed as literal and autobiographical by mainstream critics.

That is to say, to expand on this point: maybe it's the case that because mainstream white media has the news and documentaries as solid forms, rock and pop can more easily be theatre and play. Because black culture and experience are more rarely represented by mainstream news and documentary media, perhaps hip-hop is more likely (more than white rock) to occupy a role of reportage and documentary as well as theatre and entertainment? Which could lead to the kind of ambiguity sketched out above.

These are unformed ideas ~ sorry if they're naive.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:35 / 17.04.07
I can't quite get your post straight in every way

Yeah, um, this is totally my fault for misreading yours - sorry. I thought Eminem was an "or even" contrasted with Bowie, not with Jay-Z. On an off-topic note, I don't think Seth was being entirely serious - he is a trickster figure, a coyote, after all. I think it's more that a lot of these issues have been discussed before - but nobody can ever remember which bit was said in what thread, so it's hard to dig them all out.

Will come back with more thoughts, but claims to authenticity certainly complicate matters. I'd argue that the word "real" in hip hop has more connotations than just the obvious face value one - it also means "raw" or "intense", and in doing so sort of codedly suggests that it doesn't mean you can trust that what is being described actually happened as it appears to be reported (although when can you ever?). Not that everyone sees it like that - I read a great interview with Nas once in which he spelled it out, "I'm not a gangsta - I make gangsta shit" - but the next issue of the magazine had a letter from someone saying "I always knew he was a fucking fake, now he's admitted it." Same dumb shit as you get with indie rock kids, though...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
19:49 / 17.04.07
I think it's more that a lot of these issues have been discussed before - but nobody can ever remember which bit was said in what thread, so it's hard to dig them all out.


Do you mind if I make a friendly request. On this thread and another previously, which typically I can't pinpoint though it was about music, you've given the impression that there's a lot of stuff already written about the kind of thing I'm asking, and that I'm kind of going over painfully obvious ground.

I'm very happy to accept that some of what I'm writing is naive and ignorant, because I think that's a healthy enough position if you're open to learning more ~ but instead of implying (and this is how I read it, anyway) "*sigh* this is stuff you should know, that people have written loads about and I'm surprised you're not aware of that" could you point me to some links or something?

Not to prove that you're right, but because there's no point me being ignorant and staying ignorant. I understand that it could be frustrating to you, but as you seem to understand, I'm happy to be educated.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
05:39 / 18.04.07
I've been thinking more about this issue of "authenticity" ~ we were saying above how there's maybe a demand or need on the part of hip-hop followers for an artist to be "authentic" and give a voice to identities and experiences that are marginalised from the mainstream media, so providing a kind of documentary, autobiographical truth.

I was put in mind of the final scene in 8 Mile, where Eminem/Rabbit's entire victory rests on this issue of authenticity ~ giving an autobiographical account of himself, however painful and embarrassing ("I am white, I am a fucking bum... I do live in a trailer with my mom") and then revealing that Papa Doc, his nemesis, is not authentic. "This guy's a gangster? His real name's Clarence! And Clarence lives at home with both parents. And Clarence parents have a real good marriage." Whatever, that having a mom and dad living happily together makes you inauthentic, but there is other stuff in there too revealing Papa Doc as privileged and non-gangster, and the response from Rabbit's audience is punishing laughter, stripping Clarence of all his credibility and losing him the battle.

OK, so it's just a movie made by an old white director (Curtis Hanson) but maybe there's some truth in that scene, about the importance of being real in rap.

(As a side-note and extension of thoughts above, I think Eminem is given some leeway by mainstream critics in terms of the authenticity of this semi-autobiographical film. It's acceptable that it's based on his life. Mainstream white journalism has now, I think, after a bit of a confused struggle, accepted Eminem as an "artist" who isn't necessarily reporting literally, but is able to use characters and tell stories. I don't know if the same leeway was given to Fifty Cent with the similarly semi-autobiographical movie Get Rich or Die Tryin.)


Conversely, think about rock ~ or, because as I noted above I don't know much about harder rock, consider pop in relation to rap.

My impression is that quite a big deal is made in the press about Fifty Cent's authenticity, specifically his survival after being shot nine times (on the same occasion). The shooting story is a big part of Fifty Cent's "realness" and serves as a kind of guarantor that he's come up hard, that he's genuinely had experience of a thug life. He's sold drugs, served in boot camp, boxed, been shot. I have to make an assumption here because I don't listen to him, but I'm assuming that kind of life is reflected and represented in his work.

Compare Morrissey. Again, effectively an assumed name, because "Morrissey" is the star is distinct from Stephen Patrick Morrissey the real person. With just a couple of exceptions* I don't think I've ever seen any criticism or complaint that Morrissey's lyrics don't have a documentary basis in his real life, or any examination of whether he's qualified or entitled to write and sing them. I've very rarely seen any exploration of how and whether his lyrics map onto his real experience. It just isn't called into question.

When Morrissey sings "I was delayed, I was waylaid..."


An emergency stop
I smelt the last ten seconds of life
I crashed down on the crossbar
And the pain was enough to make
A shy, bald, buddhist reflect
And plan a mass murder
Who said lied I'd to her ?
Oh, who said I'd lied because I never ? I never !
Who said I'd lied because I never ?
I was detained, I was restrained
And broke my spleen
And broke my knee
(and then he really laced into me)
Friday night in Out-patients
Who said I'd lied to her ?


I don't think any of his followers require that to be authentic or real ~ or stress that Morrissey really did break his spleen and broke his knee. By contrast, my impression is that Fifty Cent's real-life experience of being shot is often brought up as "proof" of his authentic identity.

When Morrissey sings "I had a very bad dream, it lasted twenty years, seven months, and twenty-seven days", and biographer Johnny Rogan discovers there's no relevant reference to any such dream on that specific day in Morrissey's diaries, he doesn't call Morrissey out on it for being inauthentic.

Morrissey is considered to be an artist creating characters. Curtis Jackson, I'd suggest, is not. (I am still talking about "within the white mainstream media" here). And I suggest this may be because of the racist but widespread perceived cultural distinction between "white intellect" and "black body". Within this prejudiced but common opposition, I suggest, whites are perceived to be good as artists, thinkers. Blacks are perceived to be good as muscle, sportsmen.

So I'd suggest in turn that the distinction within the white mainstream in terms of assuming black hip-hop is autobiographical and real, where the same assumption is rarely made about white rock and pop, may stem from this idea that, crudely put, Curtis Jackson doesn't have the wit to make this up. He can only talk about stuff that's actually happened to him. Whereas Morrissey is accepted as a poet and author in the tradition he styles himself, as a modern equivalent of Keats, Yeats and Wilde.

----------------------------------
* The exception that comes to my mind is when Morrissey tried to give some kind of voice to a British Asian experience in "Asian Rut" and "Bengali in Platforms".

Also, possibly, his authenticity may have been called into question when he started posing with young boxers and adopting more of a "hard-man" persona ~ this being out of keeping with his previously fey character. [Grant Morrison actually did much the same thing]
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:57 / 18.04.07
B-but Curtis Jackson's entire media persona is based on the supposed authenticity of his reported experience - remove that and you're left with Bernard Manning, really. And I've no doubt Fiddy's telling the truth, as he sees it. The bullet wounds are there, I'm sure, all over his bod, and it seems clear that he likes the idea of walking into a massage parlour and having his pick of the bunch, because he's sung about it, again and again. And also the cars he drives. And the G's he's smoked, and so on.

Fiddy's antics are basically a disaster, in a way that Morrissey's (for all he has said some terrible things - 'Bengali In Platforms' might be worth another listen, in terms of what it says about the Indian/English experience; 'life is hard enough when you belong here' indeed,) aren't, I think. Because Morrissey, when pushed, wouldn't honestly come up with much more than a witty barb against his worst enemy (whatever that means) whereas Fiddy would have them kicked in, I think.

Put it this way, who would you, personally, rather get on the wrong side of?
 
  

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